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WolveseatDragons

What happens when Arya finds out her imposter is married to Ramsay?

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She did say that her Father had to give her to the temple as part of the payment for killing his wife, her Stepmother. She might have been lying but no one knows.

yeah that doesn't mean she's under any obligation. The meant her father was. that doesn't mean she can't leave.

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Watch it? No. When I really like a book, or books, I tend to get annoyed by adaptations. I still haven't forgiven Peter Jackson for "Return of the King."

As for "power is power," the FM have that too, and I'd say that's why Arya's hanging in there.

I do the same. I've never read Lord of the Rings. But I started out with the TV show. I only read books because I wanted to find out what was going to happen on the show and I didn't want to wait.

Now I only mildly tolerate the TV show. I have another friend who also discovered the books through the show. And feels the same.

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why?

Their long term existence and the fact that their mysteries remain mysteries.

Also, the fact that people still pay their price, and often, which wouldn't be as true if independent operators were setting up shop with exactly the same abilities.

And the fact that they also know all of this, can see the consequences of not keeping fight club within fight club, and would act accordingly.

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1) How do you know? How would anyone know if someone left? 2) Why would anyone want to quit a guild of magical ninja assassins? Just because people don't chose to leave doesn't mean they can't

If they send someone out and they never do what they send them to do, or ever come back, then it's quite obvious, isn't it? I'm not sure what you're getting at with 2.

No they don't. in order to project that appearance they need to project that appearance. Everything else you just made up. All we know is that they're training her to change her appearance.

Wrong. They didn't spend months telling her to forget her past life, telling her she must give up all she wants to become, telling her she'll only be a servant to the temple, for nothing. This isn't something I made up; this is what they've been doing. And that was before any appearance changing took place.

Now if you include your assumption that the Waif isn't a faceless man, then you can get there. But there's no evidence of that either.

The waif is a FM; she's a priest.

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Their long term existence and the fact that their mysteries remain mysteries.

Also, the fact that people still pay their price, and often, which wouldn't be as true if independent operators were setting up shop with exactly the same abilities.

And the fact that they also know all of this, can see the consequences of not keeping fight club within fight club, and would act accordingly.

did you just use the efficient market hypothesis for an order of magical ninja assassins? That model relies on certain assumptions. Like perfect knowledge, or at least perfect information. If you were a magical ninja assassin would you really go into the murder for hire business with your talents? If you wanted to be in the murder for hire business wouldn't you just stay a faceless man and steal some gold? Aren't there better uses of your time, like sitting the Sea Stone Chair? And how many people do you think are in this guild to begin with?

As I noted above the faceless men do a lot more than just offer the gift of the many faced god. They are engaged in espionage. And warfare with regard to Valyria.

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Arya already knows "Arya Stark" married Ramsay.

Where is this in the book? She knows about Hardhomme and she heard some sailors call Jon the black bastard but I don't recall her finding this out.

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did you just use the efficient market hypothesis for an order of magical ninja assassins? That model relies on certain assumptions. Like perfect knowledge, or at least perfect information. If you were a magical ninja assassin would you really go into the murder for hire business with your talents? If you wanted to be in the murder for hire business wouldn't you just stay a faceless man and steal some gold? Aren't there better uses of your time, like sitting the Sea Stone Chair? And how many people do you think are in this guild to begin with?

You are talking about what you think would happen.

I'm saying the FM don't let it get out of their control in part because of what could happen. And I used the Fight Club reference to point out that having a secret society is kinda like a reservation (Seinfeld)...the important part of having a secret society isn't the having a secret...anyone can have a secret...*motions taking a series of secrets out of thin air*...but really the keeping of the secret.

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If they send someone out and they never do what they send them to do, or ever come back, then it's quite obvious, isn't it?

I don't know is it? Can they tell each other apart? But more importantly, how would anyone outside of their group know?
I'm not sure what you're getting at with 2.
Why would anyone quit? Its a great gig.

Wrong. They didn't spend months telling her to forget her past life, telling her she must give up all she wants to become, telling her she'll only be a servant to the temple, for nothing. This isn't something I made up; this is what they've been doing. And that was before any appearance changing took place.

Wrong. That's not what they're telling her.

The Common Tongue came to the waif more quickly. One day at supper she turned to Arya, and asked, “Who are you?”

“No one,” Arya answered, in Braavosi.

“You lie,” said the waif. “
You must lie
gooder
.”

Arya laughed. “Gooder? You mean better, stupid.”

Better stupid. I will show you
.”

One day the kindly man came on her unexpectedly and asked what she was doing. She told him that she had gotten lost.

“You lie.
Worse, you lie poorly
. Who are you?”

“No one.”

“Another lie.” He sighed.

And everything has to do with changing her face.

She thought no. “Is Jaqen H’ghar a priest too? Do you know if Jaqen will be coming back to Braavos?”

“Who?” he said, all innocence.

“Jaqen H’ghar. He gave me the iron coin.”

“I know no one by this name, child.”

“I asked him how he changed his face, and he said it was no harder than taking a new name, if you knew the way.”

“Did he?”

“Will you show me how to change my face?”

“If you wish.” He cupped her chin in his hand and turned her head. “Puff up your cheeks and stick out your tongue.”

Arya puffed up her cheeks and stuck out her tongue.

“There. Your face is changed.”

“That’s not how I meant. Jaqen used magic.”

“All sorcery comes at a cost, child. Years of prayer and sacrifice and study are required to work a proper glamor.”

“Years?” she said, dismayed.

“If it were easy all men would do it. You must walk before you run. Why use a spell, where mummer’s tricks will serve?”

“I don’t know any mummer’s tricks either.”

“Then practice making faces. Beneath your skin are muscles. Learn to use them.
It is your face. Your cheeks, your lips, your ears. Smiles and scowls should not come upon you like sudden squalls. A smile should be a servant, and come only when you call it. Learn to rule your face.

“Show me how.”

“Puff up your cheeks.” She did. “Lift your eyebrows. No, higher.” She did that too. “Good. See how long you can hold that. It will not be long. Try it again on the morrow. You will find a Myrish mirror in the vaults. Train before it for an hour every day. Eyes, nostrils, cheeks, ears, lips, learn to rule them all.” He cupped her chin. “Who are you?”

The waif is a FM; she's a priest.

so....

She did not expect the waif to answer, but she did. “I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift.”

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Where is this in the book? She knows about Hardhomme and she heard some sailors call Jon the black bastard but I don't recall her finding this out.

“They’ll find her,” said Polliver. “If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock.”

“A pretty girl, I hear,” said the Tickler. “Honey sweet.” He smacked his lips and smiled.

“And courteous,” the Hound agreed. “A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister.”

“They found her too,” said Polliver. “The sister. She’s for Bolton’s bastard, I hear.”

Arya sipped her wine so they could not see her mouth. She didn’t understand what Polliver was talking about. Sansa has no other sister. Sandor Clegane laughed aloud.

“What’s so bloody funny?” asked Polliver.

The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya.
“If I’d wanted you to know, I’d have told you. Are there ships at Saltpans?”

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You are talking about what you think would happen.

I'm saying the FM don't let it get out of their control in part because of what could happen. And I used the Fight Club reference to point out that having a secret society is kinda like a reservation (Seinfeld)...the important part of having a secret society isn't the having a secret...anyone can have a secret...*motions taking a series of secrets out of thin air*...but really the keeping of the secret.

What secret? The society's existence is not secret.

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“They’ll find her,” said Polliver. “If it takes half the gold in Casterly Rock.”

“A pretty girl, I hear,” said the Tickler. “Honey sweet.” He smacked his lips and smiled.

“And courteous,” the Hound agreed. “A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister.”

“They found her too,” said Polliver. “The sister. She’s for Bolton’s bastard, I hear.”

Arya sipped her wine so they could not see her mouth. She didn’t understand what Polliver was talking about. Sansa has no other sister. Sandor Clegane laughed aloud.

“What’s so bloody funny?” asked Polliver.

The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya.
“If I’d wanted you to know, I’d have told you. Are there ships at Saltpans?”

This guy was drinking, Arya did not understand, nor has she received any corroborating information. She certianly hasn't heard about her marriage to Ramsey at winterfell or that Stannis has it under seige. She has not refered to it since then that I can recall so I'm not sure that she saw the implication that there was an imposter posing as her. The Hound probaly grasped this right away but there is no mention of her asking him what Polliver was talking about.

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OK to make it a simple as possible:

THEY are an CULT of ASSASINS who cultivate an aura of mystery: do you really think they let dropouts(especially with insider knowledge) live?

of course not

They're religion and one of their sacraments includes bestowing the gift of the many faced god on someone not of their choosing. I don't know that they cultivate anything. And saying "of course not" is not, in fact, evidence.

I assume the members of the group are free to come and go as they please and that the selection process itself eliminates most of the issues you've discussed. Most of the people interested in pilfering their secrets would never make it into the group to begin with.

Its like saying do you really the US government would spend millions of dollars training Navy SEALS and then just let them retire and not murder them? But they know all sorts of secrets!

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This guy was drinking, Arya did not understand, nor has she received any corroborating information. She certianly hasn't heard about her marriage to Ramsey at winterfell or that Stannis has it under seige. She has not refered to it since then that I can recall so I'm not sure that she saw the implication that there was an imposter posing as her. The Hound probaly grasped this right away but there is no mention of her asking him what Polliver was talking about.

She did. Otherwise she wouldn't think "The Hound never flicked an eye at Arya."

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No, but how they do the things they do is.

Yeah they're now the only ones who know how to do those things. You have Maesters, Alchemists, Greenseers, Skinchangers, Shaddowbinders, Warlocks, Woods Witches, Hedge Wizards, Alchemists of Lys and Red Priests.

They all have overlapping knowledge bases.

And the training process would likely root out most of the people who were solely interested in their various secrets.

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