How Jon Snow will regain his consciousness

[qixoticneurotic]

jon as ghost while hes in a coma is it for me. true loves kiss paralell with uncat as nissa nissa. freuds head explodes.

[The Dark Knight]

All these different theories being passed around, it will be interesting to see who is right and who reads to much into it. As for Jon being dead, like some of you have pointed out it never says he died just he never felt the forth one and that all he felt was the cold. Has GRRM ever hinted directly at the R+L=J theory? Because unless i missed something i cant remember reading that until i came on here. I'm sure someone will quote and show me i'm wrong. I know the half hints about Ned promising her something when she died and Ned being honourabul he wouldn't have cheated on Cat but is their any direct statements to the theory?

My own theory on Jons 'death' is he isnt dead just wounded but Mel will nurse him better and claim he died and use his 'ressurection' as proof of her devine powers to rally support to her cause.

[Black Crow]

As ever... "Oh, you think he's dead do you?" - GRRM

[alienarea]

As ever... "Oh, you think he's dead do you?" - GRRM

Also quoting GRRM: "The Others aren't dead ..."

As ever: (Jon) Snow + Ghost = White Walker ;)

[Iroh]

What if, instead of protecting the Realm against Others the true nature of the Wall is to help the new Last Hero....the magic of the Wall will help a hero rise but after that will be destroyed because lost all magic in the process.

[IKnowIKnow OhOhOh]

AA reborn admist salted pork and smoked meat?!

Hhahaha good joke, very good joke.

Possible yeah... but it makes for a very undramatic prophecy. "And with salted meat and smoked pork he will be reborn!" I wonder if Mel's follower would like that.

Prophecy is something that has to have style or else people won't buy it, so I guess it would make sense to leave the meat part out of the spoken prophecy even if it is going to take place.

Sounds funny I definitely have to remember that!

Hahaha it definitely sounds funny when you put it that way. BUT, IMO the point is not exactly the "where" with ASoIaF prophecy. Being resurrected amongst the salted and smoke meats of the wall seems cheezy, but perhaps whoever foresaw it had no idea where or how it would be done - or even under what pretense. They just saw smoke and salt. I don't necessarily believe this theory, but it is definitely interesting and it fits. Plus, it would be mostly unexpected, and therefore very GRRM-ish, because just as you said people are expecting the smoke and salt to be some grand or large-scale happening in the world, like Daenerys' birth in a bad storm, for example. And like someone posted before, Bran saw Jon lying in a cold room in a greendream. Not that it ties anything together, but maybe they just tossed Jon in with the rest of the meat instead of a Cold Cell in the wall. Especially since Jon's experiment with the wights in the cells failed to raise them, they could just assume he wouldn't come back and put him wherever the shame is hidden best. I can even picture Dolorous Edd saying "Just throw him in with the rest of our stores... he's like to taste as good as any when winter comes, but I'm sure you lot will sooner just eat me first." haha

[evita mgfs]

Thinking "simply", and I know there are many reasons why Jon's name is "Snow", but when he is attacked, he is Jon Snow and he does have a white wolf. It seems he is going to be a part of winter and the north. But whatever his fate, Jon Snow is the most likely sibling who will be able to reach out to Bran in the Cave of Skulls. I think he will communicate with Bran via the weirwood and through his conduit Ghost who just happens to share the same coloring as the heart tree.

[Queen Elsa]

In Jons last capter in ADWD it said: "In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

That might just be normal, because blood is hot and would sort of smoke when it's cold, but I always took it as a sign of fire of some sort. Maybe I expected him to be a bit like Dani or that he's AA.

When rereading ASOS I was a bit surprised to read the part where Sam slays an Other:

Smoke again. But this from an Other.

Maybe the smoking part of Jons wound means nothing and maybe it's a hint.

Hint for what I asked myself and well...

The Starks called themself the Kings of Winter and they burry their death with a sword so they won't rise again. Why is that so? Maybe the Starks have a bit of Other heritage(-magic) in their blood?

Dani is fire, so it would be strange for Jon to be fire as well (yeah yeah the dragon has three heads I know I know) ... Jon is the Ice part I believe.

IIRC, Small Paul's stab wound was also smoking.

AA reborn admist salted pork and smoked meat?!

Hhahaha good joke, very good joke.

Possible yeah... but it makes for a very undramatic prophecy. "And with salted meat and smoked pork he will be reborn!" I wonder if Mel's follower would like that.

Prophecy is something that has to have style or else people won't buy it, so I guess it would make sense to leave the meat part out of the spoken prophecy even if it is going to take place.

Sounds funny I definitely have to remember that!

There was a thread not long ago that says a pickled herring was among the food inventory at the Wall and the op said perhaps this herring could be red - a red herring. :lol:

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Bran saw Jon (at the Wall) die in his first prophetic dream.

Melisandre saw Jon become Ghost, then become Jon again.

Jon was repeatedly stabbed in the torso (Gut, back, neck, unknown 4th wound) by soldiers/officers of the Night's Watch.

Dany saw a blue rose come from a chink in the Wall in her vision.

One of two things will happen:

1. Jon will die. His consciousness will transfer to Ghost.... whole and intact. Melisandre will raise his body back, or the wight-effect will kick in. His consciousness will transfer back from Ghost.

2. Jon will not die, due to supernatural/divine intervention. He will get the Moqorro/Victarion treatment.... and his will be the Song of Ice and Fire.

One thing is certain... without supernatural intervention, Jon is dead.

[bemused]

We've seen no sign that Jon's consciousness can be transferred back from animal to human once his human body is dead... In Varamyr's prologue we're given to believe it's impossible. That's why he had to think about which of his wolves to inhabit..the older , dominant one or one younger, but less dominant. Once he made his choice , there would be no going back.

So , as far as we know , point 1. would be impossible.

Point 2. would , I suppose , be possible ...but I think it would corrupt his ties to the old gods ( from a storytelling viewpoint ) which I doubt is where GRRM is going.

But there are other options, my favourite being ..he is not dead, and will be healed by wildling medicine ( like Mance was ), probably by Val and Morna White Mask ," the warrior witch " , and while in an unconscious state, he'll be reached by Bran/ BR and shown the importance of embracing and developing his abilities as a warg... ( and perhaps other things ).

When he wakes ,Borroq could teach him a lot about the accepted ethics of skinchanging, and warn him of inherent dangers.

ETA: There are also other interpretations to be drawn from your initial statements. Bran's vision was in real time and at that moment Jon was alone in his bed and feeling very cold.... Mel sees a representation of Jon's nature and a sign that he will develop it...Many have argued that the seriousness of Jon's wounds are unknown ( except we know the neck wound was superficial )..and it's debatable whether there was a fourth wound at all.. the blue rose stresses Jon's Stark heritage and his affiliation with ice..

[Iroh]

But there are other options, my favourite being ..he is not dead, and will be healed by wildling medicine ( like Mance was ), probably by Val and Morna White Mask ," the warrior witch " , and while in an unconscious state, he'll be reached by Bran/ BR and shown the importance of embracing and developing his abilities as a warg... ( and perhaps other things ).

Yeah I really like this idea that Val and Morna White Mask will do their best to heal him...Ghost will help preserve his soul/mind...but he will only regain consciousness with the help of Bran..but when he wake up he will have some skills/abilities to fight the Others.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Or a Bran intervention... as happened with Bran, and Jojen... but it was my understanding that such near-death-third-eye-opening events occurred at a much younger age... and Bran already opened Jon's third eye.

We've seen no sign that Jon's consciousness can be transferred back from animal to human once his human body is dead... In Varamyr's prologue we're given to believe it's impossible. That's why he had to think about which of his wolves to inhabit..the older , dominant one or one younger, but less dominant. Once he made his choice , there would be no going back.

So , as far as we know , point 1. would be impossible.

Point 2. would , I suppose , be possible ...but I think it would corrupt his ties to the old gods ( from a storytelling viewpoint ) which I doubt is where GRRM is going.

But there are other options, my favourite being ..he is not dead, and will be healed by wildling medicine ( like Mance was ), probably by Val and Morna White Mask ," the warrior witch " , and while in an unconscious state, he'll be reached by Bran/ BR and shown the importance of embracing and developing his abilities as a warg... ( and perhaps other things ).

When he wakes ,Borroq could teach him a lot about the accepted ethics of skinchanging, and warn him of inherent dangers.

ETA: There are also other interpretations to be drawn from your initial statements. Bran's vision was in real time and at that moment Jon was alone in his bed and feeling very cold.... Mel sees a representation of Jon's nature and a sign that he will develop it...Many have argued that the seriousness of Jon's wounds are unknown ( except we know the neck wound was superficial )..and it's debatable whether there was a fourth wound at all.. the blue rose stresses Jon's Stark heritage and his affiliation with ice..

Beric was brought back, but the chief problem was mental... memory/identity loss associated with his death & resurrection.

Jon's awareness passes from himself to Ghost already when both are alive... only in dreams mainly, but he also has a 6th sense when their both on the same side of the Wall.

Jon dies, awareness goes to Ghost, Melisandre brings body back, Jon-awareness goes back to his body.

Speculation, but pretty straight-forward speculation and not without considerable textual evidence on all accounts from Mel, Jon, Bran, Varamyr, others .... and outside of the text, even GRRM himself. He kills Jon in his final chapter but immediately after its release quipped "You think Jon is dead? Interesting." at one of those countless damned conventions that further delay his writing.

[bemused]

But he didn't kill Jon, that's the point. We leave Jon lying face down in the snow , feeling the cold..

It's all from Jon's POV... In the shieldhall , he notices four men that he groups together in his mind - Bowen , Wick, Lew and Alf. ( He groups Othell and his builders separately. )

Later , he's stabbed by three of those four men.. Surely , he would have expected the fourth to follow suit ?..especially since that would be Alf , who, we have good reason to believe was the late Garth Greyfeather's lover,( Jon had good reason to believe it too, judging by the way he treated Alf when Garth's body was discovered.)...Alf probably blamed Jon since Jon sent Garth ranging , and the attack would have been highly personal to him.

I don't think the POV switches to third person.. He never felt the fourth blow ( the one he was expecting) ,only the cold .. It describes what he's thinking without giving his thoughts verbatim..as GRRM often does..

So it's a total cliffhanger.. we don't even know if he fully loses consciousness at that point . Someone may have stopped Alf ( forcefully , or even lethally ).. he may have chickened out ....we simply don't know..

[IKnowIKnow OhOhOh]

New thoughts.... I highly doubt Jon is dead, because it would not really serve a purpose, as said before. I really liked the point someone made earlier that nobody ever dies in their own POV chapter. Supposed deaths are GRRM's favorite means to mess with our heads anyway. Another reason it wouldn't make sense for Jon to be dead is that, when asked about the R+L=J theory, his response is "no comment on Jon's mommy and daddy [laughs]". Something very near that at least. Why would it matter to keep lips sealed about his parents (whoever they are) if Jon is dead? That information would bear no meaning, if the character whom it revolves around is dead. This quote also proves his parentage is of some importance, whether or not it is R/L.

As far as what Jon's soul does during his time spent gravely wounded or dead (belly stabs are no joke), I have no idea. Warging with Ghost is likely. That or being nearly dead allows him to realize the fullness of what he is, before being healed by Mel or wildlings. Then he will have an idea of his potential with ghost or something. Either way, when he does come back I think he is going to be through with the NW. maybe he will take the wall by force with his wildling allies and loyal brothers. Even if that doesn't happen, I imagine that the wall is in utter chaos riht now. I don't see a traditional NW lasting much longer.

The point there being that Jon will be free to do as he wills. I assume it will come to a tough choice between fighting for his fathers seat and fighting the Others for the realm. Mayhaps both in that order. But this is where I finally get to my "new" thought (at least I have not yet seen it in my short time here). Dany had the dream of Jonny boy and is hopefully intrigued. We all know the best place for her and her dragons is north of the wall burning Others to death(again?). In this time Dany and Jon grow close and marry. Thus the marriage of Ice and Fire? It would also bring north and south together. They will defeat the others and win the throne. Jon becomes a legit Stark or whatever he is (if you are for it, R+L=J makes his claim better than A's actually). Rickon gets Winterfell and Aegon gets Dragonstone. They make babies and live happily ever after and the bards all sing the epic ballad of their tale, called the song of ice and fire.

But that would be a happy ending and I am a pessimist and doubt this story will end happily. At least not that way. I see the same as above happening, except the song is a tragedy not a romance - Jon and Dany have to sacrifice themselves for the greater good or something, but fail. Or the wall falls and humanity is destroyed, and life starts over in a new cycle with winter wiping the slate clean. The Others are just mother nature's army for this purpose. The volcano in Valyria erupts again thus the ice and fire part lol. Just a few musings.

On a more serious note, the statement "words are wind" is used throughout the series, but infinitely more in ADwD than any other. Considering the title of the next book of the series, The Winds of Winter, do you think this usage of the phrase is setup or correlation for the next title? As in The "Words" of Winter? Maybe the story is less about surviving the impending winter but more the plots and schemes whilst winter ensues?

[IKnowIKnow OhOhOh]

We've seen no sign that Jon's consciousness can be transferred back from animal to human once his human body is dead... In Varamyr's prologue we're given to believe it's impossible. That's why he had to think about which of his wolves to inhabit..the older , dominant one or one younger, but less dominant. Once he made his choice , there would be no going back

I like your ideas! I just disagree with this one point. Just because sixskins could'nt go back does not mean it applies to all skin changers. I think it meant so for him, but that is because once his body died, there would be no means to bring it back. Same thing for Orell in the hawk. But Jon may have that option in Mel. Or he doesn't actually die and is healed by other means, and simply escapes the pain by chilling in ghost for a while

[bemused]

" Or he doesn't actually die and is healed by other means, and simply escapes the pain by chilling in ghost for a while "

Yes, but that's another thing , and the sort of thing I think would be more appropriate for Jon.( He needs to fully develop his bond with Ghost, which he's resisted , not knowing any better. ) If magic must come into it , I think it should be magic associated with the old gods , the gods of the North.

I really feel he needs to be his whole self , not like Beric.. not even like Beric after one resurrection. Fire consumes ... but what ? the Stark part of him ?..Maybe ..and that's the part that's important to the magic of the Wall.. and certainly the part that makes him a warg to begin with ... We don't know what cost Victarion paid for his fire healing..but the sounds emanating from his cabin were pretty reminiscent of Mirri Maz Dur's ritual. Not a good sign , IMO.

Mel has become a more sympathetic character since her POV , but we know she's very often wrong and misguided.I don't understand why so many readers want to see Jon in her clutches. So far , her interest in Jon stems from wanting to drain his abundant life force to produce shadow babies to use in Stannis' cause...

( Stannis' own strength having been sapped to the point where any more would be dangerous )

So many want to twist Jon's character to fit the damned prophecy. Which is backwards , IMO. If Jon should turn out to play a heroic part in keeping the others at bay ,or defeating them once and for all , the believers in the books will find a way to twist the prophecy to fit Jon ...It's a time honoured tradition.

[Black Crow]

I like your ideas! I just disagree with this one point. Just because sixskins could'nt go back does not mean it applies to all skin changers. I think it meant so for him, but that is because once his body died, there would be no means to bring it back. Same thing for Orell in the hawk. But Jon may have that option in Mel. Or he doesn't actually die and is healed by other means, and simply escapes the pain by chilling in ghost for a while

I think that the whole point of the Varamyr prologue was to show us more of skinchanging in general and to tell us that a dead skinchanger is stuck in his last host, ie; that Jon can't warg out of Ghost.

Therefore I feel there are two options here:

First that there is a get-out clause, and that this is a significant difference between warging and ordinary skinchanging. However I'm inclined to doubt this given that GRRM has deliberately thrown the Varamyr chapter in our path.

The second is that he isn't dead. "Oh you think he's dead do you?" asked a surprised GRRM.

The nature of the wounds has been discussed extensively, but the key may once again lie in the different nature of warging. GRRM has said its different because the warg is bound to the wolf. We also learn that there is a part of the wolf in the warg and vice versa, which is why the direwolves seem to have initiated the skinchanging bond with the Stark children rather than the other way around as in Varamyr's case. Jon is in effect a werewolf, which is why he has those beserk fighting rages - the wolf in him takes over (just as it supposedly did with Viking beserkers) and someone has proposed the interesting theory that when Jon whispered "Ghost" as he went down, he didn't feel the fourth knife not because he had warged into Ghost but because he had summoned Ghost to warg into him.

As to how it will all turn out, we have that other statement by GRRM:

http://www.newrepubl...artin-interview#

...Martin tries to focus on the characters, plotting their triumphs and their ends. “You have to turn on the computer, and just look at the scene,” he said, “and suddenly Jon Snow is in the forest and there are enemies after him and what is he gonna eat and what is your next sentence, what is your next word?”

Not only is he being pursued through the forest, but if he needs to eat he isn't a walking dead man...

[Han Snow]

I think that the whole point of the Varamyr prologue was to show us more of skinchanging in general and to tell us that a dead skinchanger is stuck in his last host, ie; that Jon can't warg out of Ghost.

Therefore I feel there are two options here:

First that there is a get-out clause, and that this is a significant difference between warging and ordinary skinchanging. However I'm inclined to doubt this given that GRRM has deliberately thrown the Varamyr chapter in our path.

The second is that he isn't dead. "Oh you think he's dead do you?" asked a surprised GRRM.

The nature of the wounds has been discussed extensively, but the key may once again lie in the different nature of warging. GRRM has said its different because the warg is bound to the wolf. We also learn that there is a part of the wolf in the warg and vice versa, which is why the direwolves seem to have initiated the skinchanging bond with the Stark children rather than the other way around as in Varamyr's case. Jon is in effect a werewolf, which is why he has those beserk fighting rages - the wolf in him takes over (just as it supposedly did with Viking beserkers) and someone has proposed the interesting theory that when Jon whispered "Ghost" as he went down, he didn't feel the fourth knife not because he had warged into Ghost but because he had summoned Ghost to warg into him.

As to how it will all turn out, we have that other statement by GRRM:

http://www.newrepubl...artin-interview#

...Martin tries to focus on the characters, plotting their triumphs and their ends. “You have to turn on the computer, and just look at the scene,” he said, “and suddenly Jon Snow is in the forest and there are enemies after him and what is he gonna eat and what is your next sentence, what is your next word?”

Not only is he being pursued through the forest, but if he needs to eat he isn't a walking dead man...

If this is to be taken literally, it is a MAJOR slip and REVELATION! I just can't buy that GRRM would blurt it out like this.

Maybe Jon well and truly dies, his body I mean and it's not resurrected by any means, MEl, Old Gods, Bran, whoever and whatever. It's just dead and burned and Jon is stuck in Ghost till the end. Maybe reuniting with Arya in his wolf form. Bittersweet ending?!

[Black Crow]

Well he said it, just as he earlier said "So you think he's dead do you?"

ETA: as to his wounds, its worth observing that when Arya got clouted on the back of the head with a long-axe during the Red wedding that seemed pretty fatal at the time.

[bemused]

I didn't take that New Republic quote as being a literal example..though it could be , at some point ( George do love to tease , don't he ? ) But I don't think there's any way in hell ( or seven of them , if you like ) that Jon will be a walking dead man.

And thanks for bringing up that point about the direwolves Black Crow. My head starts spinning when I read ( for example) people speculating that Benjen or Ned could just warg this or that. No.No.No.

GRRM has said that all of the current Stark kids are wargs but not the generation before them.

Finding the pups awakens their abilities ( and I suspect this needs to happen at a young age ). It's not that Ned's generation couldn't have become wargs , it's that direwolves have not been seen south of the wall for more than 200 yrs.

Benjen ( I think ) tells Jon they're north of the wall , alright.. the NW hears them on their rangings. I think it's probable that the ability to bond with that particular animal only exists in the Stark bloodline. Do we think Varamyr ... ( vile and rapacious as he was ).. would not have greedily sought one out and taken it over if he could have ?..He of the shadow cat and the snow bear ?.. I think the only bond a direwolf will accept , is with a Stark.

ETA; Oops! got carried away..I meant to say that all of the above has me feeling very attracted to the idea of Jon summoning Ghost into him.. if he could get back up as a sort of wolven berserker , that would be a flight of fancy I could live with.. :D :D

ETA,ETA; Oh , and um..Val could soothe him out of it. Ghost is perfectly at ease with her..