Heresy 10

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I think humans just outbred the children and overpopulated the north. This increased human footprint meant there was more human/children interaction. Thus when anything went wrong, humans would blame some force outside the community--whether it is the Freys blaming the 'frogmen' or the Wulls blaming the Liddels, or the Umbers hunting down a wolf pack that was killing chickens and children, communities have a way of blaming anything outside themselves. This would have led to a clash of conflicts over the years that hunted the direwolves to extinction south of the wall, and similarly would have tired and reduced the children's numbers. Eventually I would expect they would just mass emigrate, as there was no more room for them south of the wall.

This is all probably true of Giants as well.

The North is many things, but over populated does not seem to be one of them. Then again, all things are relative, what doesn't seem like alot to us could be apolcalyptic over crowding for the Children.

REGARDING THE KISS @ CRASTER'S ....

I took a look at it myself on the big screen, and I'll be damned if it doesn't look like the Walker is breathing a white mist into the child. I presume that is what you mean by kiss?

I know no one is interested in the following & no one thinks it pertinent, but whenever I hear/see/read a reference to the Walkers and the Mist, I can't help but recall the myths about Bloodraven 1) controls shadows, 2) Is a warg and 3) CAN TURN INTO A MIST!... (i just can't seem to get over that)

Also... Non ASOIAF-related mist parallel --> I also think of "Eaters of the Dead" / "Thirteenth Warrior" with the Norsemen being attacked by the Wendol, who arrive as/in/with a white mist. Another "Do they bring the mist or does the mist bring them?" scenario there, with humanoid-but-not-human creatures attacking humans.

[mor2]

REGARDING THE KISS @ CRASTER'S ....

I took a look at it myself on the big screen, and I'll be damned if it doesn't look like the Walker is breathing a white mist into the child. I presume that is what you mean by kiss?

I would trust special effects as canon... ETA: For that matter if you want to trust the tv show, then most of what we know is confirmed in its history futerates.

@Elaena Targaryen, thanks for providing the quote.

[alienarea]

The North is many things, but over populated does not seem to be one of them. Then again, all things are relative, what doesn't seem like alot to us could be apolcalyptic over crowding for the Children.

REGARDING THE KISS @ CRASTER'S ....

I took a look at it myself on the big screen, and I'll be damned if it doesn't look like the Walker is breathing a white mist into the child. I presume that is what you mean by kiss?

I know no one is interested in the following & no one thinks it pertinent, but whenever I hear/see/read a reference to the Walkers and the Mist, I can't help but recall the myths about Bloodraven 1) controls shadows, 2) Is a warg and 3) CAN TURN INTO A MIST!... (i just can't seem to get over that)

Also... Non ASOIAF-related mist parallel --> I also think of "Eaters of the Dead" / "Thirteenth Warrior" with the Norsemen being attacked by the Wendol, who arrive as/in/with a white mist. Another "Do they bring the mist or does the mist bring them?" scenario there, with humanoid-but-not-human creatures attacking humans.

Eaters of the Dead/Thirteenth Warrior is based on the Beowolf myth. It is known that GRRM is fond of Nordic mythology. Also, we have a thirteen in the Night King and wolves.

[Lykos]

<snip>3) CAN TURN INTO A MIST!... (i just can't seem to get over that)<snip>

I had to double back when I read this, too. Then I remembered that Sansa vanished in a puff of brimstone. It might be important, but I´m sceptical. Bloodraven is important enough without being the Great Other Reborn.

[Bran Vras]

Here is the passage about Bloodraven (The Mystery Knight)

Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

Doesn't Varamyr warg finally a one-eyed wolf?

[Black Crow]

Again we need to remember that this is Martin's world and that while such a huge work needs through sheer necessity to be derivative both of his own earlier writings (or at least the bits that worked and the ideas he liked) and external sources, its all about what he does with it. No matter how closely some aspects of the Game of Thrones mirror events and themes played out during the Wars of the Roses, Westeros isn't 15th century England and King's Landing isn't London. Norse legend plays a big part and so does Celtic, which is why he specifically refers to the Others as an icy version of the Sidhe.

An interesting parallel was recounted at the end of George MacDonald Fraser's McAuslan trilogy; a very thinly disguised account of his time as an officer in the Gordon Highlanders after World War Two. The names, as they say were changed to protect the innocent (or the guilty), but one day at a book signing he met his old commanding officer, who taxed him on the assertion that the books were a work of fiction - pointing out that he himself was not a work of fiction.

Conversation drifted on to the eponymous McAuslan, a walking disaster area; the colonel declared that it was easy to recognise (real name deleted) but every now and again the character in the book did or said something that didn't ring true, until he (the colonel) realised that Fraser had occasionally added bits of another king's hard bargain.

This is what I reckon we're seeing here. GRRM is basing the Others on the Sidhe, but adding the Ice and various other minor odd traits and characteristics drawn from elsewhere in order to make them his own

[Black Crow]

... whenever I hear/see/read a reference to the Walkers and the Mist, I can't help but recall the myths about Bloodraven 1) controls shadows, 2) Is a warg and 3) CAN TURN INTO A MIST!... (i just can't seem to get over that)

All things are possible I suppose, but I'd suspect that this particular one is really down to an intimate knowledge of the secret tunnels currently being used so effectively by Varys.

[Ser Lepus]

We know it's in the bones because Bran tells us, the wight flesh doesn't stop until Summer cracks the bones for the marrow, then it abruptly 'dies'.

That reminds me something I read about the beliefs of ancient germanic peoples, and how they thought people had three souls; One is the seat of the mind, and goes to Valhalla or Hel after death; the second soul is a sort of guardian angel that you find a long time after the birth (sometimes when you are an adult; it is often inherited from a parent or grandparent) and leaves you three days before death; and the third and last soul is attached to the body and remains in the tomb with the bones and can turn into a vampire.

[Bran Vras]

That reminds me somebody I read about the beliefs of ancient germanic peoples, and how they thought people had three souls; One is the seat of the mind, and goes to Valhalla or Hel after death; the second soul is a sort of guardian angel that you find a long time after the birth (sometimes when you are an adult; it is often inherited from a parent or grandparent) and leaves you three days before death; and the third and last soul is attached to the body and remains in the tomb with the bones and can turn into a vampire.

Not sure it's relevant, but interesting. Where does it come from?

[Lykos]

@Ser Lepus

I´m reading a scientific book on norse mythology (Paul Herrmann from 1903) where these different believes in the soul are mentioned. It seems though that it was believed in each type of soul in different periods of history, not in all three at the same time. The bones and vampire bit is mentioned in a link Earon I sent me in answer to my first post in this thread.

[Ser Lepus]

Not sure it's relevant, but interesting. Where does it come from?

It comes from Witches, Werewolves and Fairies: Shapeshifters and Astral Doubles in the Middle Ages, by Claude Lecouteux; that author wrote several books about the same subject.

The mind-soul would be called hugr (it´s called hamr when it travels out of the body, kind of like the skinchangers of ASOIAF), the guardian angel-soul would be the fylgjur ("the follower") or hambel, and the bone-soul would be de mahr, a sort of psychic remain that never leaves the dead corpse and can turn into a vengeful ghost.

Claude Lecouteux calls the last soul literally bony-soul or osseous soul.

[Eyron]

I see the draugar had returned :)

Well, from what we now know, the Sidhe is probably the most interesting model that the white walkers are built on.

From what I read about the spirits Ser Lepus is referring to, they are not a part of the individual soul (but could be interpreted as such from a modern perspective), but spirits of fate (Fylgia, guardian, often an animal) and luck/happiness (Hamingja) that follows an individual or a clan respectively, and the latter one is passed down from one generation to the next.

The two are difficult to distinguish from eachother since the myths have blurred during the centuries, and they have other names as well to complicate things further, and are sometimes referred to as godesses and sometimes specifically Valkyries. The norse mythology is very fuzzy and complicated, and there is no singel interpretation that is the correct one. Like my namesake Eir, she is sometimes called a Valkyrie, a Aesynja, a Norn and a Dis, all depending on the source.

The Mara, means "mare" and "nightmare". Nightmares are still called "Mardröm" here, meaning a dream of the Mara. It is the evil spirit that takes a persons body during sleep, and sits on the chest so breathing is hard. It is not connected to the draugar as far as I know and I have never read about a connection, searched the interwebz but I didn't find it.

The draugar are just undead, sometimes benign and sometimes vengeful, bloodsucking and flesh-eating. I have read that they could be the origin of the vampire myth since they ocurred in places where the Goth and other Swedish and Nordic tribes ventured in southern east Europe and Russia.

[Ser Lepus]

From what I read about the spirits Ser Lepus is referring to, they are not a part of the individual soul (but could be interpreted as such from a modern perspective), but spirits of fate (Fylgia, guardian, often an animal) and luck/happiness (Hamingja) that follows an individual or a clan respectively, and the latter one is passed down from one generation to the next. The two are difficult to distinguish from eachother since the myths have blurred during the centuries, and they have other names as well to complicate things further

Claude Lecouteux puts the fylgjur, hambel and hamingja into the same group, protective spirits that are adquired rather than born with. The thing is, some of those protective spirits have a name that is etymologically related to the hamr, that is the form the mind-soul takes when it travels out of the body in dreams, showing that people weren´t sure where the soul ended and the guardian spirit started (for example, both the fylgia and the hamr are known for leaving the body in animal or human shape and attacking the enemies of the individual).

[BrosBeforeSnows]

Wow. I've been away for a while, but I really dig all of this Norse mythology stuff.

Here's something I thought of recently: Jormundgandr - the Midgard Serpent.

I'm thinking Robert Baratheon, or at least, Robert Baratheon's memory or House, represents Thor (i.e. strongman with a hammer).

And Dany is Jormundgandr (the sea serpent). We know that Dany is already a serpent (i.e. dragon), and if she marries Victarion, she will indeed become the Sea Serpent, with a fleet of Ironborn at her command.

Jormundgandr is said to "circle the Earth". Similarly, Quiathe told Dany to circle the Earth in her prophecy (to go West you must go East, etc..).

Also, I think the story about "Lifting the Cat" is related to the Lannister/Hidden Targ connection.

In this particular myth, Jormundgandr disguises himself as a giant cat, and the Giant King, Utgard-Loki, challenges Thor to lift it (which Thor cannot). What Thor did not know was the cat was actually a dragon.

Loose ends, I know. But I'm just kind of thinking out loud. Feel free to elaborate or ignore.

[Edwin Snow]

If you want to draw comparisons between a Song of Ice and Fire and some form of mythology, you need to look into Hindu mythology. You can draw direct comparisons. I would go into an analysis but there is so much to write I think it could be a thread all of its own!

If an analysis between Hindu mythology and ASoIaF is something that someone would want, just let me know and I will try to make it happen.

[Bran Vras]

If you want to draw comparisons between a Song of Ice and Fire and some form of mythology, you need to look into Hindu mythology. You can draw direct comparisons. I would go into an analysis but there is so much to write I think it could be a thread all of its own!

Would you compare ASoIaF to the Mahabharata? I think the length and scope are comparable. The Mahabharata can be seen an epic struggle of Light and Darkness, with the important things residing beyond Light and Darkness. There might be analogies: the five Stark children / the five Pandavas. GRRM is Vyasa (the narrator of the story, and the progenitor of all the important characters). But I am note sure about a big theme in common.

Claude Lecouteux puts the fylgjur, hambel and hamingja into the same group, protective spirits that are adquired rather than born with. The thing is, some of those protective spirits have a name that is etymologically related to the hamr, that is the form the mind-soul takes when it travels out of the body in dreams, showing that people weren´t sure were the soul ended and the guardian spirit started (for example, both the fylgia and the hamr are known for leaving the body in animal or human shape and attacking the enemies of the individual).

I'll keep an eye on Claude Lecouteux, who says that he arrived in the field with relatively little serious study having been done on medieval paganism before. Is there anything corresponding to GRRM's notion of warging coming with these soul/body dichotomies?

[Ser Lepus]

I'll keep an eye on Claude Lecouteux, who says that he arrived in the field with relatively little serious study having been done on medieval paganism before. Is there anything corresponding to GRRM's notion of warging coming with these soul/body dichotomies?

Well, according to Claude Lecouteux, all those stories about shapeshifters (witches turning into hares, werewolves into wolfs...etc.) were based on earlier myths in which people with shaman-like powers projected their souls out of their bodies in animal form (hamr); the hamr would often spy or attack their enemies, or go check on their loved ones; it was sometimes unwittingly done (for example, you go to bed thirsty, your hamr could separate from you and go to the well while you were asleep...wolf dreams, anyone?).

I think there are obvious connections with the skinchangers, only that the soul of the skinchanger doesn´t take physical form itself, but possesses a real animal instead; everything else is very similar.

My grandmother still believed that, if a moth landed near you at night while one of your loved ones was far from you, you shouldn´t hurt that moth, since it was the "messenger of the soul" of your loved one: That belief is identical of those myths in which the hamr separates at night and goes to visit the object of your desire (or love, or hate) while you are dreaming.

[Black Crow]

I think Lecouteux's work reinforces what I suggested earlier about death in Westeros and the significance of the Varamyr prologue; namely that body and soul go together. A warg (or hamr) can temporarily project itself into another beast, leaving its own body sleeping, but otherwise they are stuck and that applies to death too. Just as we speak of the dead going to their rest, instead of moving on they sleep in their bones, gradually fading away.

As we learn from Varamyr, wargs can temporarily avoid this fate by projecting themselves into a host, but at the cost of being stuck there and eventually being absorbed into it. Raising of the dead is on the other hand, whether by Ice or Fire, achieved by waking the soul sleeping in the body.

This in turn has two important implications (neither of them original); namely that the Starks are held in their graves by iron in order to prevent them being re-awakened, and secondly that if Jon is indeed dead and his soul fled to Ghost, then as I've been arguing no matter how clever Mel might really be she can't raise him from the dead because his soul isn't in his bones to be awakened.

How he does get out of that remains to be seen, but we're still left with a supplementary question as to why the Starks have reason to fear they might be awakened and whether iron is a general specific against resurrection, or whether its connected to the Sidhe - and given the Others-Sidhe connection I'm pretty sure that's going to turn out to be the case.

[Bran Vras]

I think Lecouteux's work reinforces what I suggested earlier about death in Westeros and the significance of the Varamyr prologue; namely that body and soul go together. A warg (or hamr) can temporarily project itself into another beast, leaving its own body sleeping, but otherwise they are stuck and that applies to death too. Just as we speak of the dead going to their rest, instead of moving on they sleep in their bones, gradually fading away.

As we learn from Varamyr, wargs can temporarily avoid this fate by projecting themselves into a host, but at the cost of being stuck there and eventually being absorbed into it. Raising of the dead is on the other hand, whether by Ice or Fire, achieved by waking the soul sleeping in the body.

This in turn has two important implications (neither of them original); namely that the Starks are held in their graves by iron in order to prevent them being re-awakened, and secondly that if Jon is indeed dead and his soul fled to Ghost, then as I've been arguing no matter how clever Mel might really be she can't raise him from the dead because his soul isn't in his bones to be awakened.

How he does get out of that remains to be seen, but we're still left with a supplementary question as to why the Starks have reason to fear they might be awakened and whether iron is a general specific against resurrection, or whether its connected to the Sidhe - and given the Others-Sidhe connection I'm pretty sure that's going to turn out to be the case.

That's interesting. But, how do you reconcile this with the fact that the early Starks died before the Andals, and therefore did not know iron?

[Eyron]

The word hamr (or in Swedish hamn) means shape. It is simply the shape the soul appears in that is the hamr in the way the words is used. We still have sayings about it, for instance "a wolf in sheep's clothing" would be "en varg i fårahamn" = literally a wolf in sheep's hamr.

The gods changed hamr, meaning they changed shape. The hugr is the mind or the will in the common use of the word.

The spirits I think you mean Ser Lepus, are not called by old norse words, and are believed to have appeared in culture later on. The more modern Norse folklore is very different from the old Norse religion. It seems to me that the two different belief systems have been mixed up a little bit in the text you read. They are distantly linked of course, but it seems like the author is trying to force them into one when they are not. One of the problems I can imagine is that our folklore is so diverse and linked to very local traditions and beliefs, the culture varies a lot but some things are in common.

The spirits connected to humans in the folklore are in Sweden called vård, ('wights', in old Swedish varþer, old Norse vörðr) and they could appear in the shape of the person they guarded, as a copy, and could stay behind as a revenant when the person died.

There are myths about humans changing shape from all over the world so I don't think GRRM needed to look into the Norse one specifically.

There is an interesting aspect of the vård that is also mentioned in the link, in the context of ASoIaF, because we often have warden trees, a tree in the yard (especially at old farm houses or mansions) that was believed to be linked to our fortune and should never be harmed and the vårdar were believed to live under it. It was well looked after and many still stand today. Old trees have a very special status still.

ETA: It's possible that Claude Lecouteux is right and the one that found connections others have not made, or that he has source material that were not commonly used before. His interpretations just seem different from what I was taught.

I think he is right in that the myths of ghosts and shapeshifters are from earlier belief systems, but they are present in almost every old culture. The Sapmi people in the north of Scandinavia had shamans that said to practice astral travels and shapeshifting into animals long after the Christians invaded the north for example.