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Heresy 10


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Hmmm, Eaeron, that Aun link you posted, he doesn't sound like the prince of pentos...he sounds like Craster, sacrificing his sons to the gods to get extra years added on to his life - maybe that is what Craster thoguht he was getting from his sacrificed sons - the blessing of the cold gods. He did come across as a vigorous old man.

Nice! That seems to fit quite good.

It is very different in the aspect of the election though, which rings more like the Lord Commander to me, but these are all details, I think there is something to the theory about sacrifices in the ASoIaF, and the sacrifical king in particular.

I had the Night's King in mind when I read about Aun. Aun's subjects stopped him, and saved his last son. The Stark in Winterfell and Joramun stopped the Night's King, who had made sacrifices, his sons?

And the regular sacrifices of the King when times were bad, falls in line with our earlier ideas about the Corn King and the whatshisname who was challenged and sacrificed if he did not win. And of course the first would be the Prince in Pentos and the second reminds me of the free folks custom of challenging the leader of a clan to take power (which in turn reminds me of a wolfpack).

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The King of Nemi. Yes I see your point and find it good.

There's this undercurrent of the sacrificial king in ASOIAF for whom Kingship is about serve and having to make sacrifices and is generally altruistic (except probably not in Craster's case I suppose) that is running directly opposite to the main storyline in which we see men struggling to become king for selfish reasons.

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Yes I like this theory about Craster giving up his sons rather than himself. We've discussed before how he might not after all be the bastard son of a member of the watch and that was just his mother trying to do a Gilly and get him through the Wall to safety.

I don't think its stretching too much to postulate a long line of Crasters giving up two or three sons and then one fine evening, tucking the last one into his cot and walking out to wait patiently in the cold... until the present one refuses to go when its his own time and instead offersup more of his sons (and sheep) to stave off going to Faerie for a few more years

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The tree connection, like a handy crane, lifts the train back on the rails. Tree Odin both sacrifices an eye to drink from the waters at the base of the world tree (Yggdrassill - a yew tree though so not much like the weirwood) to gain knowledge about the future, but in another story he also hangs himself on a tree to gain knowledge of runes and both have a Bloodraven flavour - there he is locked in a tree to gain knowledge.

The hanging of, well actually I don't think it was just men, at the sacred grove at Old Uppsala is attested, I think in Adam of Bremen from Ansgar or one of the other early missionaries and really reminds me strongly of the dark side of northern religion recalled by Manderleys' old jailer in ADWD.

I would like to start a thread for stuff like this. Where we could take up Edwin Snow´s offer of showing us some analogies to hindu mythology too. I´m really fascinated by the different cultural "shades" that influence how people read the books.

I´m not shure how to name the thread, though. Or where to draw the limit, for example should I include influences of popular culture. I´m very interested in the little tributes GRRM put in the books. Maybe you could send me a message, only today the board freezes all the time. And I´m not very concentrated right now, so it could take a day or two before I answer back.

@Lummel: The german wiki on the ash tree says that the Yggdrassill was an ash. I´ve seen someone comparing the root network of the ash trees to the Weirwood network. The ash is a holy tree in Ireland, though supposedly they have very few left because they used them up to produce their hurling bats.

Two little comments.

About ashes: i looked at the Oldstone episode upthread. The old king Mudd, of the First Men, is buried near an ash tree (instead of the familiar weirwood).

About yews: this very week I saw again a typical parish enclosure in Brittany: calvary and church in the middle of the town cemetery, with bones of the deceased kept in the ossuary, all under the auspices of ancient yews planted in the enclosure.

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Yes it's quite common to find yews in church yards and similar - yew is poisonous so farmers tended to remove them from their lands if they kept livestock, on the other hand yew wood is useful because of its flexibility (English longbows were made of yew, it is very bendy) so as a practical compromise yew trees were allowed to grow by churches where animals weren't meant to graze.

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The King of Nemi. Yes I see your point and find it good.

There's this undercurrent of the sacrificial king in ASOIAF for whom Kingship is about serve and having to make sacrifices and is generally altruistic (except probably not in Craster's case I suppose) that is running directly opposite to the main storyline in which we see men struggling to become king for selfish reasons.

I´ve read that the swedes used to sacrifice a horse the years of famine or plague, a slave the second bad year, and the king itself the third bad year. That sounds a lot like Pentos (and seems a good way to encourage kings to be hard-working and creative).

I guess Earon I can tell us more about that.

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Ritual sacrifice of the king does not seem limited to Pentos among the free cities. Here is Illyrio on the idea of putting Myrcella on the Iron Throne.

In Volantis they use a coin with a crown on one face and a death’s-head on the other. Yet it is the same coin. To queen her is to kill her.

(No such sacrifice seems to exist to Braavos. Though Arya recalls the stories of young girls given to the Titan in AFfC.)

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Cont.

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.'

Understandably enough this and its implication, with a lot of very erudite discussion of European folklore, has been occupying us quite happily ever since

Other than Bran Stark the Nights King we haven't really discussed the connection in a lot of detail lately but if you want to kick off any ideas you have I'm sure they can be taken up.

Thank you very much :cheers:

Nice revelation by GRRM. I'm not really into European folklore, unfortunately, but hope I'll learn more in this thread. I'll read it throughout.

The only idea that I could share would be that IMO the arise of the Others back in the Dawn Age sounds strange. You might have talked about it in the other versions of the thread. The COTF lived in Westeros for thousands of years, how could they not known that another race live in the lands of always winter? They had greenseers and other powerful "mages", they should have known. And their purpose really bugs me. The Land of Always Winter is huge, you know, so why bothering the Giants, the COTF and the First Man by going south, bringing death and cold.

It's not a complete idea, and as I said, you might have already discused it here, I look up in the other threads before start posting regularly.

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Yes it's quite common to find yews in church yards and similar - yew is poisonous so farmers tended to remove them from their lands if they kept livestock, on the other hand yew wood is useful because of its flexibility (English longbows were made of yew, it is very bendy) so as a practical compromise yew trees were allowed to grow by churches where animals weren't meant to graze.

quite but remember yew trees where sacred to the old druid religion, quite like heart trees in fact, a theory is that churches built on old druid arias and didn't cut down the trees. also yew would be a good base idea for a wairwood.

ETA: Just flicking back over pages and sound starks dying before andals I did not know of this, can someone elaborate? also what is happening with the proposed timeline?

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Thank you very much :cheers:

Nice revelation by GRRM. I'm not really into European folklore, unfortunately, but hope I'll learn more in this thread. I'll read it throughout.

The only idea that I could share would be that IMO the arise of the Others back in the Dawn Age sounds strange. You might have talked about it in the other versions of the thread. The COTF lived in Westeros for thousands of years, how could they not known that another race live in the lands of always winter? They had greenseers and other powerful "mages", they should have known. And their purpose really bugs me. The Land of Always Winter is huge, you know, so why bothering the Giants, the COTF and the First Man by going south, bringing death and cold.

It's not a complete idea, and as I said, you might have already discused it here, I look up in the other threads before start posting regularly.

A lot of the stuff about the timelines doesn't make sense and has been discussed on earlier versions of this thread, with a pretty broad consensus that they don't go back as far as legend says they do. The Singers don't seem to be concerned about the Sidhe, which suggests they do know them as one of the Old Races. While there isn't universal agreement on this, my own feeling is that the Sidhe are the Wood Dancers, and being a proud and touchy lot went north rather than abide by the Pact, coming back again in icy form during the winter.

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quite but remember yew trees where sacred to the old druid religion, quite like heart trees in fact, a theory is that churches built on old druid arias and didn't cut down the trees. also yew would be a good base idea for a wairwood.

That was exactly my sentiment when I saw the old yews among tombstones and bones this week. (What is the source for the druidic belief? So little seems to be known for certain about druids.)

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What is known about the druids and recorded by their contemporaries could probably be written on the back of a postcard. Most of what is said and repeated about Druidic beliefs comes from modern sources (ie people written about Druids in the past three hundred years) some was quite possibly invented fairly recently (particularly likely if it stressed that it came from an unbroken tradition stretching back over thousands of years).

Besides the oak tree was the most sacred to the Druids - this is evidenced by Asterix. It is known.

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I´ve read that the swedes used to sacrifice a horse the years of famine or plague, a slave the second bad year, and the king itself the third bad year. That sounds a lot like Pentos (and seems a good way to encourage kings to be hard-working and creative).

I guess Earon I can tell us more about that.

No, sorry, I can't recall anything that specific about the sacrifices.

The sacrifices I do remember are the blot, which if the sources are correct happened 4 times a year, one before every season at the full moon midmonth. They mostly didn't include human sacrifice according to what I've read, and aimed to please the gods of the coming season. The remnants of those blot are present in our customs today. One source says that there was a blot during the coldest time of year, mid winter (january-february), and I'm not sure if that is included in the four seasonal blots or if that was the one that occured with a 8 or 9 year interval, if that detail was correct.

I have read some interesting stuff about the calendar of this time, and that was that the year started with winter, and the day started with the nightfall, also a lunar-solarcalendar was used, so full moon usually would occur midmonth. So it was the same as the Celts it seems. But I'm not sure the sources are completely reliable on this, have not read up on it enough to say either way yet. Intuitively this seems probable, since the solarcalendar with leap days instead of a short leapmonth (every third year) is said to have been introduced by the Christians and there should be records of this that are sufficiently reliable.

When I'm writing this I remember that Elaena asked something about this forever ago, and I don't remember that I answered, so sorry Elaena! This lunar calendar is what we were talking about, and Lummel and BC introduced the idea (the Celtic calendar, I think connected to the idea of cyclic history) as far as I remember. The years with a leapmonth had 13 months, and the number 13 is intuitively connected to this calendar, but there are many theories as to why number 13 have a special status in different cultures.

One is that 13 months was seen as a symbol of heathenry, since the Christians used the solarcalendar with 12 months every year. And the 13 moons is also connected to women, who evidently had a strong link to this calendar, you know what I'm talking about... Women also had a certain claim on witchcraft and thought to have a closer relationship to the untamed nature, which was a strong argument against women's rational abilities for a long time. So I can see a link between the moon calendar, the Christian fear of witches and the number 13 being seen as a symbol of the heathens. This is more speculation though. Maybe someone else know more about the Christian view on this.

I found this idea interesting since the Children seem to use the moon cycle, or at least be very concerned with the moon (Bran's chapters after arriving at the cave of the Children) and the wolves obviously (and the wolves rule the night). And the Andals and later the Red lot seems to equal the Christian conquerors in many aspects. The sun and summer is essential in at least the Red lot's religion. And as we all know the number 13 is important in the Night's King story, and as we have gathered 13 years is probably what is considered the length of one generation, and that the Long night is said to have lasted a generation. If we take this conclusion into consideration when reading the story of the Last Hero and the Long night, the story would originally have been that the long night lasted 13 years, and as we also are told, the Last Hero set out on his quest in a company of 13 men including himself. I think this is very interesting.

Bloodraven told Bran to embrace the darkness, and I think this could come from two alternative roots, one is that the darkness works as a cover and the Others can't find you when you don't light fires and that the darkness in the caves and tunnels are a safe place, and the other is that the night is the start of day in the mooncycle, easily confused with the term dawn in the suncycle (I think we have touched upon this before in the thread) and that the moon is central in the Children's culture and their magic.

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I did have the idea the other day (I mentioned it in some non-heresy thread or other) that the Last Hero story might be about the progress of the year. They are 13 and lost as the quest goes on (ie the months passing) until only the last hero (the last month) is left when he finds / is rescued by the children. And they together do something to restart the natural cycle of the year which has been stuck in winter. So really very much like the Persephone myth that we have mentioned before, everything was bleak and lifeless wasn't it before Hades allowed Persephone to visit her Mum who then cheered up and filled the world with life again.

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I forgot to mention that there were sacrifices made in the burial ritual, according to some sources and archeological findings, don't know how local or common this practice was.

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If you are a bit of a Craster fan the remains of a longhall 48 metres long by 11 wide has been found at Lejre in Denmark where according to the chronicle sacrifices like those at Uppsala were carried out of nine men and nine male animals of various species once every nine years. At Old Uppsala the nine were hanged in the sacred grove.

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Speaking of human sacrifice in Norse mythology... the hangman symbolized Odin, in relation to the story of his own "self-sacrifice". According to legend, he hung himself from a tree, which supposedly allowed him to gain all the knowledge of the universe (trees once again symbolize knowledge and vision). And throughout paganic times, the Scandinavian and Germanic peoples hanged victims in sacrifice to honor Odin.

I'm sure there's some significance to that. One thing that comes to mind is the fact that Bran has more or less been sacrificed to a tree in order to gain knowledge. Granted, he wasn't hanged, but the current condition he finds himself in isn't all that far from it.

Another thing I'm reminded of are the Dunk & Egg stories... Dunk carried a shield with a hangman on it, and was later sacrificed in the fires at Summerhall in an attempt to hatch dragon eggs (which could be considered an attempt to gain lost knowledge). Not sure where to go with that exactly, but I do think the sigils that are used play a big part in the symbolism (obviously).

And, if we are to accept the controversial theory that Jojen was sacrificed to Bran, Bran would've gained universal knowledge through his death (which is also connected to trees via weirwood paste). Also, Brandon Stark (Ned's brother) strangled himself trying to save his father from Aerys Targaryen's flames. So, there's that. Don't know exactly how that ties in, or if it even does, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

But another thing that strikes me about human sacrifice is the fact that so many maesters (i.e. men of science) have been given to the gods, whether directly or indirectly; Maester Luwin to the Old Gods in the Stark's Godswood, Maester Cressen to the Red God inside the ancestral Targaryen stronghold, and Pate, the novice, to the Many Faced God in the heart of the Citadel. I'm beginning to see a pattern there.

And, of course, Jon Snow sacrificed Qhorin, and Jaime sacrificed his honor, and Aerys Targaryen (who may or may not have been his real father) all for the greater good.

As for Aun & Craster, I like the analogy. I'd also point out that the opposite appears to be true for the Red God. Rather than sacrificing his sons (if he had any), Beric Dondarrion sacrifices himself in order to prolong Cat's life. To the Old Gods, you sacrifice someone else to prolong your own life. But to the Red God, you sacrifice yourself to prolong the life of someone else. Could be something to that.

And, I know it's a bit off-topic, but as for my idea that Robert Baratheon is Thor, and Dany the Midgard Serpent; we all know Robert was famous for his strength and wielded a hammer in battle, but another big clue (and something that just occurred to me) is that the ancestral seat of House Baratheon is Storm's End. Robert Baratheon, when he was alive, was a Stormlord, and in fact paramount among the other Stormlords. Thor, similarly, was the Thunderer, the god who commanded storms. So yeah. There's that. Stormlord with a hammer known for his strength... hmmm... I wonder. Maybe... just maybe.

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If we take this conclusion into consideration when reading the story of the Last Hero and the Long night, the story would originally have been that the long night lasted 13 years, and as we also are told, the Last Hero set out on his quest in a company of 13 men including himself.

I did have the idea the other day (I mentioned it in some non-heresy thread or other) that the Last Hero story might be about the progress of the year. They are 13 and lost as the quest goes on (ie the months passing) until only the last hero (the last month) is left when he finds / is rescued by the children. And they together do something to restart the natural cycle of the year which has been stuck in winter. So really very much like the Persephone myth that we have mentioned before, everything was bleak and lifeless wasn't it before Hades allowed Persephone to visit her Mum who then cheered up and filled the world with life again.

I am not sure it is relevant, but I can't help mentioning that the Thirteen of Qarth sent thirteen ships to Dany. The dothraki handmaids of Dany reacted by saying that thirteen is a cursed number. (Note that in the TV show, the Thirteen seem have eclipsed the other institutions of Qarth, perhaps a sign of its importance.)

Besides the oak tree was the most sacred to the Druids - this is evidenced by Asterix. It is known.

Since you insist on bringing up the great classics, the priest with a sickle in Bran's dream would have brought up the familiar imagery if the instrument had been used to cut mistletoe.

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Speaking of human sacrifice in Norse mythology... the hangman symbolized Odin, in relation to the story of his own "self-sacrifice". According to legend, he hung himself from a tree, which supposedly allowed him to gain all the knowledge of the universe (trees once again symbolize knowledge and vision). And throughout paganic times, the Scandinavian and Germanic peoples hanged victims in sacrifice to honor Odin.

I'm sure there's some significance to that. One thing that comes to mind is the fact that Bran has more or less been sacrificed to a tree in order to gain knowledge. Granted, he wasn't hanged, but the current condition he finds himself in isn't all that far from it...

I've tended to see Bloodraven as the odin figure, but yes the parallels are there and the self sacrifice is also there in the story of Bran in the Mabinogon.

I am not sure it is relevant, but I can't help mentioning that the Thirteen of Qarth sent thirteen ships to Dany. The dothraki handmaids of Dany reacted by saying that thirteen is a cursed number. (Note that in the TV show, the Thirteen seem have eclipsed the other institutions of Qarth, perhaps a sign of its importance.)

Since you insist on bringing up the great classics, the priest with a sickle in Bran's dream would have brought up the familiar imagery if the instrument had been used to cut mistletoe.

The thirteen might just be there to draw a distinction between the solar cults (like that of Rh'llor) and lunar cults. GRRM is quite clear that there is this big binary division between the faiths. What is good for one side is evil to the other.

And yes the Old Woman in Bran's vision should have had a beard!

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The thirteen might just be there to draw a distinction between the solar cults (like that of Rh'llor) and lunar cults. GRRM is quite clear that there is this big binary division between the faiths. What is good for one side is evil to the other.

This is what I think too, it's basically just a huge pointer to the clash of the cultures.

And yes the Old Woman in Bran's vision should have had a beard!
Well, in the myths and old cultures I've been talking about, there were female masters of ceremony too, there is evidence there were Godijjas, a female equivalent of the Godi (Can't make proper Islandic d's on this keyboard) besides the Völvor, the witches.
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