Jump to content

Heresy 10


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

I'm not aware of a connection but I suppose its possible that the sudden destruction or disappearance of the second moon may have upset things under the surface of the world, releasing all sorts. Of which more in a moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Returning to the idea floated a couple of pages ago that the White Cold and the raising of Wights is related to the mist and that it may be that said killer mist (as also seen by Mel) is what Bran saw boiling up beyond the rainbow, a poster on the main thread called Fruitcakes mentions that:

It reminds me of the creation myth of the old Norse mythology, where there is a big nothing called "the Ginnunga void" (or similar), surrounded by on one side Niflheim, where it is always cold and icy, and on the other side Muspelheim, the home of fire. When the mist from Niflheim and the warmth from Muspelheim meet in the middle of the void, damp and dew is created, and out of that comes the giant Ymir, from who's corpse the Gods will eventually create the world. I'm not sure about Niflheim (cold), but Muspell is actually a person of kind, the king of Muspelheim. I guess "Nifl" could also be personified, but I don't know about that. "Nifl" could be related to the German word for fog, "Nebel", which makes sense, I think. Anyway, that's how I can imagine a "heart of winter", where the mist, the fog, the "essence of winter" itself seeps out of the ground

Given that we've seen so few of the Others/Sidhe and that their behaviour is more ambiguous than their reputation would suggest, this is looking a lot more convincing than the notion of Bran seeing serried ranks of an invading army, or a demon king cackling on his throne. It also seems consistent with Mel's comment about the Wall being a hinge between the worlds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Returning to the idea floated a couple of pages ago that the White Cold and the raising of Wights is related to the mist and that it may be that said killer mist (as also seen by Mel) is what Bran saw boiling up beyond the rainbow, a poster on the main thread called Fruitcakes mentions that:

Given that we've seen so few of the Others/Sidhe and that their behaviour is more ambiguous than their reputation would suggest, this is looking a lot more convincing than the notion of Bran seeing serried ranks of an invading army, or a demon king cackling on his throne. It also seems consistent with Mel's comment about the Wall being a hinge between the worlds.

Interesting stuff, that. I'm definitely liking the idea that the wall is sort of a barrier between the human-world and the Others. I also like the possibility of the Other's "world" up north having a different sense of time, which would explain the huge gap between their actions.

Something that caught my eye in relation to the white mists is the ending of Jon's last chapter in Dance, the line that goes something like, "He never felt the fourth dagger. Only the cold...". Now obviously I think we're supposed to assume that this is just Jon passing out, and he's simply feeling the coldness of the snow. But I also can't help but wonder if there's something more to this, especially with that last line. Could he be feeling the white mist? Could the Others be attacking the Wall at that very moment? Is it foreshadowing to him eventually becoming some sort of wight? Or should we just take it at face-value? Normally I'd for the latter choice, but because it's such a huge and monumental scene, and since it's probably the biggest cliffhanger the series has ever had, I do think it's worth putting some thought into, at least as far as how it may/may not relate to the Others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its always been very tempting to link the cold with the arrival of the Sidhe/Others, but on balance I think its reflecting the end of the Varamyr prologue where death is experienced as a sudden feeling of cold, like being plunged into icy water. I'd say that Jon is dead, really really dead and gone into Ghost, and there as I've said before, he's stuck. His own body has effectively expelled him - literally given up the ghost - so Mel can't kiss him better simply because his spirit isn't there to be awakened.

As to what does happen next, we can conclude that he will be back. There would be no point in setting him up with warging powers and a mysterious back story if his arc was going to end in a squalid blood-stained heap two or more books away from the end.

Apart from the fact that Mel will be as powerless to raise him as she was to prevent his assassination it occurs to me that there was a clue in GRRM's "you think he's dead" remark. If he's not dead, he can't be undead as in raised from the dead; so no unJon or Coldhands-Jon. Beyond that how he's going to do it I don't know, but I could mischievously point out that the Others/Sidhe "are not dead".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I was exploring the red/white symmetry in the books, Lykos remarked that the Red Waste through which Dany errs with the remnant of the Dothraki horde in ACoK mirrors the white landscape of the ranging beyond the Wall. There are elements of symmetry: in back to back chapters, the Night's Watch explored empty Whitetree and Dany found shelter in the deserted city. In one of the Heresy threads, I recall having read the remark that the house of the Undying in Qarth recalls in many ways the cave of the children of the forest (I wish I could credit properly the originator of the observation).

I wonder if the symmetry extends somehow, and if shall not expect to find beyond the Wall a place of wonder like Qarth, where life is livable inside the walls of the city despite a situation in an inhospitable desert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Sidhe idea is correct then it could be the Otherworld1 which was a place of wonders. On the other hand we've already been in hollow hills...

1 Pun unintended (for once), I meant Tir-Na-Nog or someplace similar.

ETA footnote

2nd ETA spelling

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey hey hey more mythology! If you have not read the wikipedia about Niflheim:

Niflheim (or Niflheimr) ("Mist Home", the "Abode of Mist" or "Mist World")[citation needed] is one of the Nine Worlds and is a location in Norse mythology which overlaps with the notions of Niflhel and Hel. The name Niflheimr only appears in two extant sources, Gylfaginning and the much debated Hrafnagaldr Óðins.

Niflheim was primarily a realm of primordial ice and cold, with nine frozen rivers. According to Gylfaginning, it was one of the two primordial realms, the other one being Muspelheim, the realm of fire. Between these two realms of cold and heat, creation began when its waters mixed with the heat of Muspelheim to create a "creating steam". Later, it became the abode of Hel, a goddess daughter of Loki, and the afterlife for her subjects, those who did not die a heroic or notable death.

It is the land of fog/mist. (In the Swedish wiki there is a citation)

I like the idea of the "creating steam" and that it is the place for the dead, that did not die bravely on the battlefield.

There is also a river flowing from the far north in Westeros, the Milk Water.

Bran Vras, the similarities of the Childrens red weirpaste and the blue drink Shade of the Evening of the Undying is what I remember of what have been brought up on that matter. I don't know if there were more similarities.

Another thing of note in Dany's visit in that house was how Drogon reacted to the weirwood door, he didn't like it. I was thinking that perhaps he could sense *someone* or something in that wood, or that fire dragons and weirwoods are natural antagonist...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the Sidhe idea is correct then it could be the Otherworld1 which was a place of wonders. On the other hand we've already been in hollow hills...

1 Pun untended (for once), I meant Tir-Na-Nog or someplace similar.

ETA footnote

This is what I was thinking too, just like the Otherworld in Celtic myths. The curtain of light could be the place where access is between the worlds.

One thing that struck me is that Bran had a body in his dream, and that body could fly to beyond the curtain of light. There he saw the bodies of other dreamers impaled on the white icy spikes beneath. He was only there in spirit, in a dream state, but he brought a version of his physical body there. So the impaled dreamers have bodies remaining in the real world (dead I assume), and on spikes in the Otherworld their spiritual bodies. I don't know but I thought this could be important.

Pehaps the wargs/skinchangers are the only ones that can go into another world inbetween death and life, since Bran was probably on the brink of death when he had that dream. I think that he had to fly so that he would not die for real. He is a warg, so maybe that is why the Three-eyed Crow could bring his spirit there, and maybe Jon would have had to do a similar journey, if Bran had not succeeded. This could be the test for human skinchangers, to see if they are greenseers. It felt like a ritual, and those that did not pass the test are the ones who fell to the ground, impaled on spikes. All those dreamers bodies are left in the real world, perhaps without their spirit attached to them, and all those would come from the north of Westeros, where there are wargs and skinchangers. From the lands beyond the Wall, and the Starks. From where there also are white walkers and wights. The wights could be those that are not skinchangers, cause I doubt the skinchangers become wights, they could probably take back their re-animated body if they wanted to, and were strong enough.

That is why I think Coldhands is a wight, but with the original spirit still left. But if the white walkers are undead skinchangers I will leave unsaid, most skinchangers probably do what Varamyr did, go into an animal or into nature itself. However those impaled on spikes in the far north, what happens to them?

I think Jon will warg Ghost, in Varamyr style since there is already a greenseer so he could be left alone. But I think maybe his body is going to be stored, like the ones he stored in the ice cells at the Wall. I think that he did that was also foreshadowing for himself, he will be frozen dead, but will be able to come back. If Mel ventures to bring him back interesting things will happen, will she provide the fire to making him human again? If he is a wight, frozen by ice, and can return by himself, what will happen? Will he be almost normal again? Questions questions...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...In one of the Heresy threads, I recall having read the remark that the house of the Undying in Qarth recalls in many ways the cave of the children of the forest (I wish I could credit properly the originator of the observation)...

Heresy 8. Lockesnow introduces, Jojen produces a full development, various heretical assists from other heretics. Google is the heretic's friend apparently.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes Lummel, I had been lazy and, afterwards, out of bad conscience, I have been researching the reference. Credits are due to Jojen (Edit: and lockesnow).

There are a few more similarities than the shade of the evening/ weirwood paste: the trees at the entrance (with inverted colours), the music, the dwarves, the sense of decay. Of course GRRM would never follow anything predictable, but I wonder if there is an Asshai, a Yi Ti far beyond the Wall.

(A more modest request about the land beyond the Wall would be to know more about the valley of the Thenns, and the ruined hillfort that Bran mentions just before entering the cave.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...One thing that struck me is that Bran had a body in his dream, and that body could fly to beyond the curtain of light. There he saw the bodies of other dreamers impaled on the white icy spikes beneath. He was only there in spirit, in a dream state, but he brought a version of his physical body there. So the impaled dreamers have bodies remaining in the real world (dead I assume), and on spikes in the Otherworld their spiritual bodies. I don't know but I thought this could be important.

Pehaps the wargs/skinchangers are the only ones that can go into another world inbetween death and life, since Bran was probably on the brink of death when he had that dream. I think that he had to fly so that he would not die for real. He is a warg, so maybe that is why the Three-eyed Crow could bring his spirit there, and maybe Jon would have had to do a similar journey, if Bran had not succeeded. This could be the test for human skinchangers, to see if they are greenseers. It felt like a ritual, and those that did not pass the test are the ones who fell to the ground, impaled on spikes. All those dreamers bodies are left in the real world, perhaps without their spirit attached to them, and all those would come from the north of Westeros, where there are wargs and skinchangers. From the lands beyond the Wall, and the Starks. From where there also are white walkers and wights. The wights could be those that are not skinchangers, cause I doubt the skinchangers become wights, they could probably take back their re-animated body if they wanted to, and were strong enough...

OK, so we have potentially a series of realms. The realm of men which runs up to the Wall, then a kind of anti-chamber / neutral zone / demilitarised zone / , then the Otherworld beyond the curtain of light.

The impaled greenseers who failed to penetrate through the curtain reminds me of something, but I can't think what.

If Nebelheim is the source of the white cold that wightifies mortal men and the White Walkers also come from Nebelheim then aren't the two linked? Or are the White walkers rangers in the land of always winter with Nebelheim producing it's plague fog anyhow? As a kind of natural occurrence like we can imagine poisonous vapours emerging from some volcano, the volcano doesn't intend to poison people - it just does.

But then if we are into natural or magical occurrences producing death how can Bran and Bloodraven and Ghost confront that and deal with it?

ETA

Bran Vras said:

"Yes Lummel, I had been lazy and, afterwards, out of bad conscience, I have been researching the reference. Credits are due to Jojen."

I'm sorry if I came across as being critical, that wasn't what I meant. I am honestly surprised how finely one can search our old threads with Google - doesn't work with Bing for some reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I was exploring the red/white symmetry in the books, Lykos remarked that the Red Waste through which Dany errs with the remnant of the Dothraki horde in ACoK mirrors the white landscape of the ranging beyond the Wall. There are elements of symmetry: in back to back chapters, the Night's Watch explored empty Whitetree and Dany found shelter in the deserted city. In one of the Heresy threads, I recall having read the remark that the house of the Undying in Qarth recalls in many ways the cave of the children of the forest (I wish I could credit properly the originator of the observation).

I wonder if the symmetry extends somehow, and if shall not expect to find beyond the Wall a place of wonder like Qarth, where life is livable inside the walls of the city despite a situation in an inhospitable desert.

I definitely think there's intentional symmetry between Jon and Dany. Jon's in a cold climate, Dany's in a hot one. Jon becomes the ruler of the Night's Watch, Dany the ruler of Meereen. They both learn a lot about ruling in these times, and in a sense they both fail. I also think their respective endings in ADwD are meant to be symbols for rebirth; Jon's "death", with the salt, smoke, and red comet (however it may turn out), and Dany's sort of spiritual journey through the Dothraki Sea.

EDIT: Oh, and they both (probably) killed their mothers in birth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree very much about the parallel tracks except that Jon's focus is entirely on the Watch's mission and he won't compromise in the short term, Dany isn't focused on her mission and makes too many compromises which is to the detriment of her mission. So they are trains on parallel tracks but heading in opposite directions, nevertheless they both end up in disasterland.

I wonder if some of these other parallels work in the same way - the structure is the same but the purposes are entirely opposite?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah the inverted colours of the trees at the house of the undying. The drink was made from the leaves of those trees, so I didn't point it out. I think that was brought up before heresy 8 but I probably mostly talked about that in another thread about similarities made by Cydal. It was Tze (who else) that made an amazing post about very interesting similarities and themes in the story.

OK, so we have potentially a series of realms. The realm of men which runs up to the Wall, then a kind of anti-chamber / neutral zone / demilitarised zone / , then the Otherworld beyond the curtain of light.

The impaled greenseers who failed to penetrate through the curtain reminds me of something, but I can't think what.

If Nebelheim is the source of the white cold that wightifies mortal men and the White Walkers also come from Nebelheim then aren't the two linked? Or are the White walkers rangers in the land of always winter with Nebelheim producing it's plague fog anyhow? As a kind of natural occurrence like we can imagine poisonous vapours emerging from some volcano, the volcano doesn't intend to poison people - it just does.

But then if we are into natural or magical occurrences producing death how can Bran and Bloodraven and Ghost confront that and deal with it?

The Children are the keepers of the balance, when they are strong they can prevent the cold from entering the Realms of men, if they want to. That's what I always thought anyhow. When the trees were cut down they grew weaker, and the white cold could take hold. When the trees are kept and tended to (however that is done...) the Childrens powers are strong enough to hold back winter.

I think they built the Wall because they knew their powers were weakening, and the next time winter came in force they wouldn't be able to hold it back. I don't think winter can be defeated completely this time, but maybe the dangers can be mitigated enough for men to survive. We will not see a battle where fire and winter clashes I think, we will see winter coming down on all (or most) of Westeros, and people taking shelter wherever they can, and the holdfasts with a weirwood will be the best places, in the caves and hollows under ground where the WWs can't enter. All of this could be wrong, but as the 7th book is called A Dream of Spring, I think winter will prevail all through the next books, and some of our characters will survive, and be safe somehow, but we will not see spring. Perhaps just signs of spring in the very end.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely think there's intentional symmetry between Jon and Dany. Jon's in a cold climate, Dany's in a hot one. Jon becomes the ruler of the Night's Watch, Dany the ruler of Meereen. They both learn a lot about ruling in these times, and in a sense they both fail. I also think their respective endings in ADwD are meant to be symbols for rebirth; Jon's "death", with the salt, smoke, and red comet (however it may turn out), and Dany's sort of spiritual journey through the Dothraki Sea.

EDIT: Oh, and they both (probably) killed their mothers in birth.

Yes I noticed such similarities as well. But in Martin's books there are many parallels to follow. However interesting the analogies are, they don't enable us to predict anything, somewhat like the prophecies which make sense only after they have been fulfilled.

Another analogy between the two chapters from ACoK in the red waste/the land beyond the Wall: the huge dragon skeleton discovered by the Dothraki envoy and the huge weirwood of Whitetree.

About other unexplained little things from beyond the Wall: the crypts uncovered by Mance Rayder, where the "horn of Joramun" has been found. I mentioned the following analogy in one of the last posts of the Roose Bolton thread:

The passage where we see Melisandre burns the "Horn of Joramun":

The Horn of Joramun burst into flame.

It went up with a whoosh as swirling tongues of green and yellow fire leapt up crackling all along its length. Jon’s garron shied nervously, and up and down the ranks others fought to still their mounts as well. A moan came from the stockade as the free folk saw their hope afire. A few began to shout and curse, but most lapsed into silence. For half a heartbeat the runes graven on the gold bands seemed to shimmer in the air.

when the high priest Benerro, First Servant of R'Hllor, preaches in Volantis :

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

(For the record, the phrase "whoosh" appears also when Roose Bolton burns the book in Harrenhal.) I believe runes are one of the few ways we could have to learn about the ancient past. I wonder whether they are related to Valyrian glyphs, or if the runes on the horn are not valerian glyphs instead.

ETA

Bran Vras said:

"Yes Lummel, I had been lazy and, afterwards, out of bad conscience, I have been researching the reference. Credits are due to Jojen."

I'm sorry if I came across as being critical, that wasn't what I meant. I am honestly surprised how finely one can search our old threads with Google - doesn't work with Bing for some reason.

Don't worry about that. I know, and like, that everything said is taken generously in these threads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Children are the keepers of the balance, when they are strong they can prevent the cold from entering the Realms of men, if they want to. That's what I always thought anyhow. When the trees were cut down they grew weaker, and the white cold could take hold. When the trees are kept and tended to (however that is done...) the Childrens powers are strong enough to hold back winter.

I think they built the Wall because they knew their powers were weakening, and the next time winter came in force they wouldn't be able to hold it back. I don't think winter can be defeated completely this time, but maybe the dangers can be mitigated enough for men to survive. We will not see a battle where fire and winter clashes I think, we will see winter coming down on all (or most) of Westeros, and people taking shelter wherever they can, and the holdfasts with a weirwood will be the best places, in the caves and hollows under ground where the WWs can't enter. All of this could be wrong, but as the 7th book is called A Dream of Spring, I think winter will prevail all through the next books, and some of our characters will survive, and be safe somehow, but we will not see spring. Perhaps just signs of spring in the very end.

I'm a bit wary about looking on the Children as the keepers of the balance or at least as the keepers. There are a whole series of opposite and equal elements, but it only needs one set to be out of balance to rock the whole boat. Mel has referred to the Wall as a magical hinge and I'm still inclined to think that it marks the proper boundary between the realms of Ice and Fire. I also think that while everyone is focussing on the danger from up North the Red Lot's eternal summer is going to turn out to be equally if not more dangerous.

Tyrion heard the Red Priests proclaiming how death itself would be vanquished, which presumably means Fire Wights rather than Ice Wights. I speculated earlier that itsactually the White Cold that turns men into Wights. Arguably at first sight that might be contradicted by the episode from the TV series written by GRRM in which Sam says that Wights have been touched by White Walkers. I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive and that while the Others/Sidhe can re-animate individuals, its normally done on an industrial scale by the cold mist seen by Mel in her vision.

Now if we go across to the other side presumably the "flame" passed in re-animating Beric, Cat and probably Victarion, is the Fiery equivalent of being touched by Sidhe/Others and if so it follows that if say a volcanic gas can be released by the Red Lot we'll see whole armies of unDead rising up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we want to dis-associate the Others and the cold, how do we explain away the fact that the cold was intense enough to shatter a well made steel longsword and the stone dagger was too cold to touch - presumably through thick NW standard issue gloves - after striking the Walker.

We're talking <70 degrees Kelvin or so... Liquid N2 kinda cold.... If you want to start shattering steel. To cause it to shatter like a glass bottle, I'm not quite sure how cold you'd have to go...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we want to dis-associate the Others and the cold, how do we explain away the fact that the cold was intense enough to shatter a well made steel longsword and the stone dagger was too cold to touch - presumably through thick NW standard issue gloves - after striking the Walker.

We're talking <70 degrees Kelvin or so... Liquid N2 kinda cold.... If you want to start shattering steel. To cause it to shatter like a glass bottle, I'm not quite sure how cold you'd have to go...

I´ve heard than at Siberia, during winter, the cold makes iron and steel tool more fragile and they shatter more easily; it could be a legend, but if it´s true, that points to liquid N2 levels of cold being unnecesary; artic winter level of cold would be enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...