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How would you rate episode 204?

How would you rate episode 203?  

440 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      5
    • 2
      3
    • 3
      10
    • 4
      8
    • 5
      19
    • 6
      35
    • 7
      72
    • 8
      125
    • 9
      107
    • 10
      56


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I gave it a 7.. agree with many of the criticisms on this thread:

do we need to see more joffrey cruelty that doesn't involve major players? if you go over the list of his exploits from just the HBO show, anyone need more convincing he is a maniac should stop watching the show...

the Qarth scene came across as cliche and tacky, something this show has managed to avoid expertly...

the Robb and Talisa scene also came across, to me, as very predictable and cliche...

all in all, I still enjoyed the show but become increasingly disappointed with the additions HBO has inserted

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do we need to see more joffrey cruelty that doesn't involve major players? if you go over the list of his exploits from just the HBO show, anyone need more convincing he is a maniac should stop watching the show...

Consider this: How necessary was it (in the books and the series) for Joffrey to show Sansa her fathers head after the execution? We already knew he was a cunt (to quote Bronn).

There is not fault in emphasizing a character's traits through well-made scenes. The non-book readers I've spoked to had nothing against that scene, and I think the controversy about it on this forum is just an example of book-readers holding non-book scenes to a higher standard than book scenes. If CoK had featured Joffrey torturing prostitutes, no one would have complained.

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I usually vote 7 or 8 and this one is a 7, which means it's one of the usual enjoyable GoT episodes.

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I give it a 9. I gave the first two episodes 7s and last week's episode 10.

I am convinced now that the only way to appreciate and enjoy this series is to forget completely about the books and to stop all the comparisons. The series stands on its own and needs to be evaluated on its own terms. The writers have made changes to the source material, both to the narrative and to the characters. It's silly to criticize them for making changes. Of course they are making changes. All that is important is whether the series works. And on that basis, I have to give it a strong thumbs-up. HBO has given us a compelling story with compelling character. This is great television!

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I give it a 9. I gave the first two episodes 7s and last week's episode 10.

I am convinced now that the only way to appreciate and enjoy this series is to forget completely about the books and to stop all the comparisons. The series stands on its own and needs to be evaluated on its own terms. The writers have made changes to the source material, both to the narrative and to the characters. It's silly to criticize them for making changes. Of course they are making changes. All that is important is whether the series works. And on that basis, I have to give it a strong thumbs-up. HBO has given us a compelling story with compelling character. This is great television!

I am going to try to do that. I gave it a 7 because of the increased deviations from the book, but it probably deserves a 9. It will be difficult to forget about the book when watching the show. Maybe as long as my favorite scenes are there, I will be happy.

In fact the only part I frowned upon was the quick jumping between scenes regarding Renly and Stannis. One moment Littlefinger is touring around Renly's camp, then Renly and Stannis are meeting (NO PEACH!!!) and then Davos is rowing Melisandre to... where? There is no mention of Storm's End and why Davos had to take Mel into a cave with iron bars that didn't use to be there.

Edited by Corvinus

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I give the episode an 8/10.

I thought it was a very solid episode, and I loved most of it with some exceptions:

Quarth: I thought this scene was awkward, but I can't really put my finger on why exactly and is the reason for most of the points knocked off. I think it's maybe because

a) can't understand why Dany will refuse to show her dragons. I suppose it's due to the fear of having her dragons taken away from her, shouldn't her first priority be to stay alive, and the only way she can ensure that is if her and her khalasar are allowed into the city.

b ) I don't understand her shouting and threatening to burn the city to the ground. Yeah, I suppose if she is desperate, she might have played the threatening card, but I felt like there should have been more negotiations prior to the threats.

On the other hand, I really liked the spice merchant and the creepy bold guy in the background.

The Robb/Talisa scene. I'm slightly conflicted about this one. While the acting was fine and I definately agree that the Robb romance storyline definately needs to change from the books because Robb is older and more mature, I'm not sure that this was the best way to do it. It felt too modern, with her lecturing the King In the North so openly in the field. I hope they develop the romance beyond the "king falling for the sassy modern girl who speaks her mind" cliche.

Other than that, I thought it was a great episode. Special shoutout to:

-The tyrion/sansa/joffrey scene - AMAZING, and plus Bronn's line had my laughing long after the scene was over

-Harrenhal was flawless. Tywin coming in like a boss made me so excited

-I loved the Stannis/Renly exchange. "Is he ham?" LoL

- All hail Stannis, the King of grammar. I loved this line-I thought it really showcased Stannis's personality well.

Edited by Puzzle

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Consider this: How necessary was it (in the books and the series) for Joffrey to show Sansa her fathers head after the execution? We already knew he was a cunt (to quote Bronn).

There is not fault in emphasizing a character's traits through well-made scenes. The non-book readers I've spoked to had nothing against that scene, and I think the controversy about it on this forum is just an example of book-readers holding non-book scenes to a higher standard than book scenes. If CoK had featured Joffrey torturing prostitutes, no one would have complained.

That scene you're referring to in season one wasn't just about showing Joffrey as a cunt though. That's certainly part of it, but a lot is more about Sansa, and how she realizes what a terrible position she's in. The scene from this episode was well made I agree, but not really necessary, and I would have preferred the time spent better in Renly and Stannis' meeting, which was not only cut short but had no setup.

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Consider this: How necessary was it (in the books and the series) for Joffrey to show Sansa her fathers head after the execution? We already knew he was a cunt (to quote Bronn).

There is not fault in emphasizing a character's traits through well-made scenes. The non-book readers I've spoked to had nothing against that scene, and I think the controversy about it on this forum is just an example of book-readers holding non-book scenes to a higher standard than book scenes. If CoK had featured Joffrey torturing prostitutes, no one would have complained.

Yes but now he has done that, AND he has killed all his father's bastards, and he has threatened to kill his mother, and stripped and beaten his betrothed in public, and so this addition was not "bad" in the sense that the scene was poorly acted, or directed or even totally out of character. It was just very long considering how condensed so many other character's screen time and stories have been. More of a bad use of screen time, more so than the scene itself being bad, for me at least. It would have been great if they had 20 episodes this season. With only 10 episodes it seems redundant in the information it provides relative to the amount of screen time it recieved.

Will we ever learn about Davos being the Onion Knight or the exact details of why he lost his knuckles? They glossed over it this episode, but it could have been completely explained with the time spent on Joffrey and the whores. We don't "need" to see Renly and his peach or Stannis brandishing Light Bringer for the first time, but personally I would have preferred those moments. Argueably they did need to have Catelyn remind both Baratheon brothers that Lord Tywin sits at Harrenhal with twenty thousand swords, and they have multiple other armies gathering with Cersei and Joffrey holding the Iron Throne. That they both name themselves king but only Robb is fighting to defend the kingdom they want to lay claim to. They could have spent the time explaining why Stannis chose to attack Renly instead of King's Landing. Of course that would be tough if they have cut Storm's End, since then there really isn't a reason to go there rather than straight to King's Landing. They could have even kept two shadow babies, since we only get one birth in the books with that time. We could have had Arya escape Ser Amory last episode and avoid the clumsy lie of the blond Lommy being the dark haired bastard Gendry, and then have them wandering and get captured by the Mountain this episode... There are so many good scenes that would not be any more heavy on special effects or casting than the whore scene that could have been included instead. So it isn't that the whore scene was "bad', but more so that it wasn't adding enough to a story that is already being drastically cut down to warrant including over events from the book that we don't get to see.

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I give the episode an 8/10.

I thought it was a very solid episode, and I loved most of it with some exceptions:

Quarth: I thought this scene was awkward, but I can't really put my finger on why exactly and is the reason for most of the points knocked off. I think it's maybe because

a) can't understand why Dany will refuse to show her dragons. I suppose it's due to the fear of having her dragons taken away from her, shouldn't her first priority be to stay alive, and the only way she can ensure that is if her and her khalasar are allowed into the city.

b ) I don't understand her shouting and threatening to burn the city to the ground. Yeah, I suppose if she is desperate, she might have played the threatening card, but I felt like there should have been more negotiations prior to the threats.

I agree that this was cringe worthy. Dany first says that if they don't let her in they will all die, and THEN says she will come back when her dragons are grown and burn the city to the ground? She will have a pretty tough time coming back when her dragons are grown if she starves to death... That isn't just bad politics, it's a completely stupid comment that would more likely get her "kalisar" of 10 people killed on the spot than gain her entrance. The most obvious reason she doesn't show her dragons is because of real world economics of the cost for the CGI. But they could have avoided showing them this episode just as easily by not having the 13 insist to see them...

Alternate rewrite of the scene:

13 recieve Dany and initially refuse to let her in. Dany tells them she will reward them when she comes into her kingdom if they help her now. Spice King balks without seeing dragons first. Dany promises to let them all see the dragons after they have entered the city and rested up. Xaro agrees to take them in.

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-1 for not having room inside the largest keep on Westeros

:laugh: that made me laugh out loud--literally. so true, but i totally didn't notice it until you said it.

overall, i'd give this a 7.5. it was good, but i liked last week better. and i have a terrible memory, so most of my gripes aren't based on a comparison to the book--and for the record, i friggin love this show--i'm obsessed. i watch each episode at least 3 times, which is probably why i notice some of the gripes i have. also, i thought the first 4 episodes of season 1 were fairly slow as well--and it was really episode 5 where it got awesome--so i think things will improve a lot starting next week.

I'll start with the things I disliked:

1) the fart joke--are you friggin kidding me? i literally cringed and thought about how all the people i've introduced the show to would be rolling their eyes at yet another fart joke, as if the previous one wasn't bad enough. plus, the whole--gotcha oh wait we really are going to die thing is so overplayed. it definitely irritated me--they couldve just had the guy get up and say "do you hear someth...aaahh" gets eaten by grey wind,

2) qarth. the scene was so random--the whole scene felt inauthentic is really what my beef is. too cheesy fantasy movie for my tastes. the spice king reminded me of jabba the hut, but with the demeanor of ...i can't even think of who--but just lame--the entire time i was thinking why dont they just take her dragons? is she seriously yelling at them? i mean, i thought it was ok to show her desperation bla bla...but if she was so desperate, wouldnt she just show her dragons? i mean, they're pretty obviously in the "pier 1 baskets" so it just seemed weird. obviously it also shows that she's got the crazy targ streak, but still felt forced. plus, the whole invoking sumai thing--wow, how cliche. some parts of the qarth thing were ok--the "horde?" line, the look inside, pyat pree in the background. and honestly, i didn't even remember how the whole qarth scene happened in the book, so this is just based on my tv viewing, not book comparison.

3) shadowbaby. not all bad--but the fact that most non book readers think it's a smoke monster--because that's what it looked like--bugs me. and i know some people are saying that's how it was written, but i disagree--nowhere in the scene does it say that it comes out amidst smoke and then forms--it says the hands wrap around and the head comes out and it comes out and then gets huge (i.e., the size of a large shadow)--not that it is vaguely formed and smokey, then takes human form.

also, i thought davos' initial reaction was sort of comical--he didn't look very scared--poorly acted--though i usually think he is great--that face he made took me out of the moment for a second. but, knowing what it was, i have to say i thought it turned out pretty good--mostly, i just hate that it was made in such a way that it legitimately is called the smoke monster from lost, or a dementor.

4) the mountain--i know the other dude left to play the hobbit, but this is the scariest big guy you could find? he made a face that was like a genial smile at one point--which made him seem like a giant teddy bear.

5) the moment ser meryn is about to hit sansa for the last time and tyrion stops him--it felt like the actor playing ser meryn was going to stop, or even did, just before tyrion said anything--like the timing seemed off, so when he raised his sword, i thought it was comical, again taking me out of the moment. tyrion more than made up for it though.

6) fading to black for what seemed like 5 minutes during the battle...

7) LF--the whole making a play felt poorly acted and ill timed (not in the sense of her being a widow, that too, but in the sense of the actors playing off of each other).

8) did anyone else think the shot of davos and mel in the boat, after the long shot, where they are rowing into the cave was disconcerting? he was rowing, but not moving at all--was that supposed to happen--couldn't they have made him move a little? part of the problem is probably that i watched the episode 3.5 times so i noticed all the random things, but even the first time i watched it i remember thinking, why are you rowing if you're not going anywhere?

9) the music--it felt off for some reason--like it was too modern at certain moments.

----

Likes:

1) tyrion/sansa/bronn scene: i thought it was awesome. period.

2) tyrion/lancel--hilarious, and i thought eugene simon (lancel) did a great job.

3) the joff/ros scene--it was disturbing as fuck, but i thought it was very well done--and i think that nonbook people get a real sense of the psychopath/sadist that joffrey is, that they didn't seem to get before, so i was fine with this addition (though it couldve been shorter).

4) harrenhal--from arya saying "dead people" to hot pie peeing himself when the guy he is taking after (who said he never gets picked b/c he stares at the mtn, so hot pie stares at the mtn), gets picked, to rat torture and tywin being superb--i loved it. arya and her storyline, even the truncated version, is one of my very favorites. (a little worried about how the tywin cupbearer thing will play out in terms of the jaqen storyline).

5) the stannis/renl parley: i loved this scene. i thought it renly was hilarious and stannis perfectly rigid. i dont see the point of the peach in this context, because the peach's ongoing significance is all in stannis' inner monologue, so we couldn't get that on the tv show anyway.

6) margaery--i adore the tv version of her character--though i hope her grandma makes an appearance in the next couple of seasons. thought the way she shut LF down was awesome.

7) the new map! i cheered out loud.

8) the robb/grey wind shot--loved love loved it.

9) shadowbaby--some parts of it were awesome--the hands curling around her legs--that i specifically remembered about the book and loved how it added to the creep factor--and i thought it was also appropriately disturbing and creepy, so i liked that.

10) Roose! i almost forgot--so fantastic...

on the fence:

robb/talisa--i liked the look on his face when she was amputating the dude's foot--like, oh you're so dreamy...it was fun and funny in a cringeworthy scene. but i am not sure how i feel about the change--if it is indeed a change.

Edited by summer_stark

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My friend and I were just discussing how we almost wish we had not read the books first. I hadn't read the books before watch Season 1 and I just loved it and it got me into reading the books. Now Season 2 rolls around and I am seeing where HBO is making deviations and adding and changing scenes and at some points they just seem unnecessary. The two scenes that struck me as wasting time in this episode that could have been better spent developing and telling more of the actual book story were Joff and the prostitutes; Robb and the field nurse. Both seemed unnecessary to me.

First, neither happened in the books (that is not to say they could not have happened, since neither Robb nor Joff were POV characters in the book). Second, what was the need? Again HBO is acting like a horny teenager and must have T&A on-screen wasting time. We know prostitutes are prostitutes and we know Joff is a "cunt". Did we really need an even more sadistic scene than him having Sansa beaten and stripped? As for Robb and this field nurse. I really hope she disappears and doesn't ruin the actual plot of Robb falling for Jeyne Westerling. Again this scene just added little in the way of plot besides throwing out the age-old argument against war that the little guy pays the price for the big guys' fights.

The fact that the show has to pick and choose which characters to even show a glimpse of in each episode begs the question why they waste time on additional scenes that do NOTHING to further explain a characters inner thoughts and motivations. I am fine with HBO expanding on some things that we did not "see" in the books, like Renly and Loras relationship, since the POV characters were not able to be watching that, but these writers are having a little bit of a problem weighing which expansion is necessary and actually useful. Showing me AGAIN that Joffrey is a dick is redundant, especially when you had to write a new original scene to do it. Showing me that Robb is in a little over his head and really is still very young is not entirely necessary (though it might be the better of the two), especially when you need to write a new scene to convey it. Com'on! We have a whole plot line coming up where we find out that Robb is not completely grounded by duty as a king.

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I'm not afarid. I'm just annoyed. What the hell should I be afarid of?

You're incredibly angry over a tv show adaptation. Lighten up, Francis.

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I think the show is just too boring for me. I've tried and tried and tried to get into it. I really wish the writing, direction and pacing were better. Oh well, at least some fans are loving it which is cool. I do like some of the acting.

I really have to ask: what tv shows do you consider to have significantly better writing and direction? I'm curious as to your inclinations.

Every single reviewer has praised the directing and writing. Heck, the negative reviews were almost entirely genre based. I mean, are you a huge Terrence Malick fan? I am, and I love this, but I can see where the pacing would be off and the directing is not at that level.

Is there another book you love at the level of ASOIF that had a better written adaptation? What are they? I admit I really liked Peter Jackson's adaptation of LOTR (though it was not without issues) but as a contrast, one of my favorite books of all time, A Prayer for Owen Meany, was so abominably bad an adaptation the author made them change the character's name.

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The scene where Joffrey punishes Sansa for her brothers victories didn’t live up to my expectations at all. I had hoped it would be one of this season’s most emotionally loaded scenes, but I felt like it fell flat. I understand that it must be hard to do scenes like this with a young actress who is portraying an underage girl, but without the stripping of the clothes the scene lost a lot of its emotional weight. It didn’t hit me anywhere near as hard as in the books where I could feel her humiliation and helplessness, alone in a city full of strangers and enemies. Ripping her clothes off and degrading her would show more clearly how terrible a situation she is in. Beating her like Mandon Moore did in the show is of course no picnic either, but it didn’t convey the same degradation and humiliation that book-Sansa had to endure. I felt worse for the whores than för Sansa, which for me is an incredible disappointment since this was one of the scenes I really looked forward to this season, with how powerful the scene is in the book and since I love both Jack Gleeson and Sophie Turner I expected them to knock it out of the park (the actors did great btw).

have to agree. someone else has said this before on this thread, and i was thinking the same --that the ros scene just one-upped the sansa scene, effectively diffusing the emotional impact, lessening the cruelty of sansa's treatment by comparison (and lessening by comparison the reader's outrage as well). i think it's safe to say that sansa just had one of the worst moments of her entire life. it got eclipsed by the other scene. not the actor's fault at all!

I really have to ask: what tv shows do you consider to have significantly better writing and direction? I'm curious as to your inclinations.

Every single reviewer has praised the directing and writing. Heck, the negative reviews were almost entirely genre based. I mean, are you a huge Terrence Malick fan? I am, and I love this, but I can see where the pacing would be off and the directing is not at that level.

Is there another book you love at the level of ASOIF that had a better written adaptation? What are they? I admit I really liked Peter Jackson's adaptation of LOTR (though it was not without issues) but as a contrast, one of my favorite books of all time, A Prayer for Owen Meany, was so abominably bad an adaptation the author made them change the character's name.

do you think it is unfair of me to compare it to the quality of last season? because i've re-watched that one about 3 times now, and every time i find it to be solid, all the way. maybe there are a couple of slow parts, but no biggie. this season, we're 4 episodes in and even though there's been some great content, i feel that as a cohesive whole, the show isn't up to last season's standard.

and i know 2 HBO subscribers who are fast losing interest. one of them won't cancel, because they watch other shows. the other person --the one who actually convinced me to start watching (and reading the books, which restored my faith in fantasy writing after giving it up 12 years ago) -- is thinking of cancelling, since that's the only reason they got it. they just aren't into it this season. makes me rather sad.

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I gave it a 9. I was pretty impressed.

No real complaints, but I rarely rate anything as "perfect"

Greywind attack was cool. Roose appeared well cast.

Harrenhal scenes were great.

I was actually impressed at Lancel this episode, not sure why. They really captured him being really confident and smug and it contrasted really well when he realized Tyrion has him in his pocket.

Littlefinger thrown into the mix was alright, was a "Eh" reaction for me.

Didn't mind the Joffrey scenes, although the one stretched on pretty long.

Shadowbaby thing was less weird (note: Less) than I thought it would be, and had some pretty cool effects.

Glad they threw in some Stannis lines too. Shame that the Peach probably won't make it in xD

Edited by Zerrex

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do you think it is unfair of me to compare it to the quality of last season? because i've re-watched that one about 3 times now, and every time i find it to be solid, all the way. maybe there are a couple of slow parts, but no biggie. this season, we're 4 episodes in and even though there's been some great content, i feel that as a cohesive whole, the show isn't up to last season's standard.

and i know 2 HBO subscribers who are fast losing interest. one of them won't cancel, because they watch other shows. the other person --the one who actually convinced me to start watching (and reading the books, which restored my faith in fantasy writing after giving it up 12 years ago) -- is thinking of cancelling, since that's the only reason they got it. they just aren't into it this season. makes me rather sad.

I think that's a lot more valid than the comment that the writing and directing are weak. It has been slower and less cohesive than season one as a whole.

But I thought the early episodes last year really struggled to balance story and exposition. I don't think the show found it's stride until somewhere in the range between Arya's dancing lesson (a beautiful scene) an definitely hitting its stride with by episode six (the crowning of Viserys). Did you really find those first four episodes of character introduction, exposition and check-ins all that smooth? I didn't, neither did most critics and even HBO -- there's a reason they sent out six episodes as screeners.

You're comparing the intentionally slower portion of the season against a complete season. That's not really fair.

Another question for you: while I think it's reasonable to say that you feel that this season isn't as good as last so far... how much worse is it? From all the handwringing and talk of cancelling HBO, you seem to imply it is terrible. Is that a correct assessment?

As for cohesion, I'll plant a thought with you: there's probably too much content. But at the same time, when the writers miss a peach, they get blasted. You know what many an adapter would have done? Cut Renly completely out of the entire story. March Stannis to King's Landing. Blast Dorne out of existence. Frankly, do we need Arya? Or even Dany?

The path to visual cohesion and pacing lies in simplicity. There was not going to be enough time to tell it all -- HBO is already going to invest somewhere over $500M in production costs on this show. No one gets that budget. So choose: the level of cohesion we have; cutting whole storylines; wildly awful production values.

Which comes to my last point. I'd like to throw some facts out there and you tell me what you make of them:

  • Game of Thrones has a very high production budget -- except for Rome, the highest I've ever heard of
  • Game of Thrones was a strong critical success, with the only negative critics attacking genre (and the first four eps we've seen have been reviewed very positively as well)
  • Game of Thrones is watched by many, many people -- one of the most successful premium cable shows ever
  • Game of Thrones is heavily engrained in pop culture already
  • The vast majority of the complaints about the show are by people who have read the books

I'm not saying the show is perfect; it's not and never will be. I'm also not saying you're wrong for feeling the way you do -- that's a nonsense statement. You feel as you feel.

This is what I am saying: as close as we can ever get to objectively speaking about something like this -- this is as good as adaptations get. Or pretty damn close. I can think of a few better movie adaptations, but at 5x the production budget per minute. Looking at the information above, this is what I come to logically: the show is very, very good, and some people who have read the books are not enjoying the show because of that point of view.

I don't know if that applies to you or not. I can't tell how much you are disappointed. But it applies to a lot of people here. I love the books, have read all of them except Dance 5+ times as well as all three of the Dunk books. I also love the series and can live with them being different stories.

If you don't like them, if the show angers you more than you enjoy it, I think there's something to examining why that is. Because if you could change that, wouldn't you rather just enjoy the ride?

(A starter idea for those people: how about not condemning changes until they run their course. Remember how Jon seeing Craster in the woods was going to lead to an inevitable confrontation where Craster is killed, Jon is exiled and never meets Qhorin Halfhand? Me neither, but that a fear on this board. Now apply that to Talisa/Jeyne. Or hell, Ros. Her story is actually pretty interesting this year. Not good times in Ros-land.)

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This time I'd given it 8 - less than episode 3, but still better than the first two. Overall a good episode. And now, to my 20 cents:

  1. Harrenhall was terrifyc! The look of the towers, the missery of the prisoners, the torture scene (not outright in your face, but still very disturbing). The Tickler was great - very alike the original character. The new Mountain is a bit dissapointing - he is tall but kind of skinny, and not menacing as the actor, that was casted in the first seasone. I don't realy dig Lord Tywin's appearence at Harrenhall - it sounds as he is going to replace Roose in using Aria as his cupbearer. :dunno:
  2. Stannis/Renly/Melisandre part was reliable (no peach, but it's still fine). I still cannot relate to Davos. Shadowbaby was well "produced".
  3. Quarth part was really intertaining, but Xaro is a bit too galant and less flameboyant than he ought to be.
  4. Tyrion and Lancel part was very funny. But Peter Dinklage is a kind of win-win situation, as we all know.
  5. And now, to my only BIG problem with this episode - Joffrey and the whores. While it was definetely well acted and written, I think that scene was too brutal - even while being totally bloodless, it was hard to watch. We allready know that Joffrey is a twisted monster (it's a shame, he haven't a chance to meet Ramsey Bolton - they have SO much in common), but I'm not sure, that the audience needed another reminder of his cruelty - I think his scene with Sansa being brutalysed by Ser Merin Trant was more than enough.

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and then Davos is rowing Melisandre to... where? There is no mention of Storm's End and why Davos had to take Mel into a cave with iron bars that didn't use to be there.

They blended together two scenes from the book - Renly's assassination by the Shadow and Davos smuggling Melisandre to Storm's End to kill it's castellan to obtain Edric Storm, by giving birth to another Shadow. AFAIR there was a cave with bars.

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I dunno, for those complaining that the Joff scene didn't add anything, I thought it did. Non-readers probably think Joff is just a bit of a petulant spoiled brat arrogant teenage boy. He's been absolutely ruined by his mother and now he's the King, most teenage boys and especially a spoiled brat would lose the run of themselves a bit in those circumstances. Bronn then adds to the idea in the minds of viewers that maybe Joff is just immature and spoiled. Maybe with a bit of growing up he won't turn out so bad and Sansa's situation might improve in time.

But then comes that scene, which finally establishes that Joff really is a psychopathic sadistic monster, not a redeemable if currently badly flawed spoiled teenager that might grow up and wise up some day. Non-readers now know there's no obvious way out for Sansa, Joff isn't going to mature, and are now worried for what might happen to her next.

As for Robb's hot nurse, well I never really bought the Robb/Jeyne sub-story in the books anyway so I don't mind if they change it.

Edited by Dalfiatach

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I dunno, for those complaining that the Joff scene didn't add anything, I thought it did. Non-readers probably think Joff is just a bit of a petulant spoiled brat arrogant teenage boy. He's been absolutely ruined by his mother and now he's the King, most teenage boys and especially a spoiled brat would lose the run of themselves a bit in those circumstances. Bronn then adds to the idea in the minds of viewers that maybe Joff is just immature and spoiled. Maybe with a bit of growing up he won't turn out so bad and Sansa's situation might improve in time. But then comes that scene, which finally establishes that Joff really is a psychopathic sadistic monster, not a redeemable if currently badly flawed spoiled teenager that might grow up and wise up some day. Non-readers now know there's no obvious way out for Sansa, Joff isn't going to mature, and are now worried for what might happen to her next. As for Robb's hot nurse, well I never really bought the Robb/Jeyne sub-story in the books anyway so I don't mind if they change it.

I don't know, from the series only, joff has the following resume:

went after arya and the butcher's boy with malice intent

beheaded ned against orders

made sansa look at his head on a spike

had sansa beaten multiple times

stripped sansa and pointed crossbow at her

cut out tongue of singer

threatens to kill his mom

almost kills drunk knight

ordered killing of all robert's bastards, including infants

I think this goes well beyond immature and is well into psycopathic... but if I could give that scene a point, it would be the escalation of his feud with his uncle... I just think they could have made that point with a shorter scene and used that air time for other aspects of the story that could use more of it...

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