[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

The book never implied that Joff was sexually aroused by torture. This scene did, IMO. Book Joff was sadistic, but TV Joff is off the charts.

Tyrion thought it, and it was quite obvious.

[dark sister]

I totally agree with the butterfly effect problem too and GRRM himself mentioned that it could be a problem. And his example for this was when Drogo slew Mago! That is such a small, small incident compared to other things they have changed or added. The biggest example that comes to mind is when LF acts totally out of character and taunts Cersei about her twincest, and she threatens to slit his throat. The best player of the Game would, firstly, never do something like that, and, secondly, never let her get away with it. We don't know if Cersei is going to eventually die (although a lot of ppl hope she will) but damn, with LF's skill I can't see her living past season 3 after THAT insult, which would create a problem once they get to Feast, b/c so much of that book is from her POV. Or at least, whenever I've read it it's always seemed that way to me. Sometimes I call it "the Cersei book" out of all the ASOIAF books. (Ned was Game, Tyrion was Clash, Arya/Jon was 3, Cersei was 4, Dany was 5...)

Edit: About LF's taunting and Cersei's reaction. In the book, LF mentions to Sansa that if Cersei were to find her, he'd have to "remove her [Cersei] from the Game" before he had planned. This shows just how confident and likely capable he is of removing the Queen regent! And hey, I don't doubt it. Or, even if he overestimates himself and can't, that confidence and slyness is part of his character. So my problem with that particular scene is this: either the producers/writers are changing LF's character to one who would make a dumb move, be threatened/humiliated, and then not retaliate, or to one who would taunt her, be threatened, then kill her in retribution. Either way, they are severely changing his character -- all in one added scene. Cersei's reaction to his savage wit was totally in character for her, but it's so out of character for him that I believe it might confuse the viewer who hasn't read the books. In the first season, he is infinitely cunning and seems never to make a mistake at court; here, he is making a fool out of himself. I wish I could ask the writers what they were trying to set up/accomplish with that confrontation.

Edited April 23, 2012 by dark sister

[dark sister]

Exactly. This scene also ties into Robert telling Ned about Joffrey torturing his pet cat and Cersei demanding that he not be punished for it. Now we see him years later and he's graduated to torturing prostitutes. Not only was I condemning Joffrey while watching that scene but I was also hating on Cersei for creating this vile monster. No checks were ever put on him. He's a sociopath, just as portrayed in the books.

Haha I totally applaud Jack Gleeson. He's truly a gifted young actor. I've seen him in a couple of other roles, but I thought the scene in the throne room with Sansa was especially good -- near the end there was this way he pitched his voice louder and somehow crueler that was just terrifying.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I am dumbfounded that someone would get through watching this great pile of awesomeness and then run immediately to their computer to start complaining about it. Here are some facts...

1. The TV show is not the books. It is based on the books. It is also being translated with as much care and appreciation as any work of fantasy that I have ever seen. This includes the LOTR movies by Peter Jackson. I actually think this is much closer to the books.

2. The characters are not the exact same characters. First of all, to eliminate confusion, some characters have been merged with other character, and some have taken on different personalities. The point, is that the overall story arc is still being lovingly told here. I try not to judge any performance based on the book character, but instead base it on how well they are acted. So far the level of acting in this series is as remarkable as anything that i have ever seen on television, including Shae, Peter Baelish, and Joffery. They are nailing their performances every time. They are all achieving the emotional discourse that they are being directed in outstandingly.

3. Ros is a character on the show. Get the fuck over it. Her role is not a waste of space, she is providing a great narrative, and she is smoking hot. She is also nailing her role. the look of fear on her face as Joffrey forces her to beat her fellow worker was some of the best acting on tonight's episode, and as I already mentioned, this is remarkable because of how well acted this series is.

:bowdown: You hit the nail right on the head. Thank you!

[Smooth]

I don't mind changes that are necessary, like using fewer characters or combining events. I do mind changes that seem forced. Why is Dany even talking to the "13"? There's only one that needs to be known, the rest can be ambiguous, just a brief mention of what they are would have completely nullified the scene. She could have easily arrived to open gates and Xaro to greet her. I think they could have ended the Joff/Whore scene with the line where he tells Ros to hit the other girl. Everyone would have gotten the point. They do have to change some things. You can't exactly strip Sansa naked. I'm sure everyone is fine with that. I'm also fine with them not always following the book. They can introduce new things that aren't in the book but don't change the story. If they would cut back on the continuous sex scenes, nudity and fart jokes, they probably wouldn't have to cut so much of the story.

It's still a good show. It just feels like things are drifting this season.

Also, what was up with the change in LF's voice and seeming less amiable this season?

[Mauvka]

In defense of the Joffrey/whores scene...

I think it does quite a bit more than just show the progression of his depravity. This scene solidifies why, once the Lannister/Tyrell alliance is made, Joffrey must die. Think about what we've seen of Joffrey up to this point from the perspective of a powerful family like the Tyrells:

• He beats up on Sansa--Well, there's bad blood between them (war and all that), and she's far more a prisoner of war than a queen. There is no reason to presume from this that the way he treats Sansa will be the way he treats Margaery.
  
• He has commoners/drunk knights tortured--again, the Tyrells would think they are above such risk. They are a powerful house, not like the rabble.
  
• He had Robert's bastards killed--an ugly order, but some may call it justified
  

While many of these actions can be a bad PR issue for the Crown-Tyrell alliance... none are a serious threat. What Joffrey does with the whores, is.

As someone above noted, a teenage boy is presented with two naked young ladies in a room... and his reaction is to have them beat each other? The mental depravity of that scene goes far beyond anything we've seen before. Margaery can never be safe married to this Joffrey. That is why the Tyrells will take on the huge huge risk of assassinating the king. Not just the king, but a Lannister king. I'm sure the Tyrells have heard the "Rains of Castamere," and they need a better reason to take that risk than "Joffrey has a mean streak." That is why we will have the Purple Wedding.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I thought book joffery is the same age if not older then Robb. In the Show he seems about 14. Am I wrong?

Robb was 14 in the books, not 30 as in the show.

[Ghost714]

Did anybody notice in the preview for next weeks episode, Jaqen H'ghar told Arya that "the red god" must have three lives? That may not be exactly what he said, but I know he said red god, in connection with the three deaths he owes Arya. I know that part was in the book, where Arya gets to have Jaqen kill three people, but in the books he never called it the red god. Red god to me means R'hllor, but the Faceless Men surve Him of many Faces.

That's going to be strange if the show has the FM worshiping R'hllor, because the Red Priests of R'hllor are for Dany(in Volantis anyway), and the FM are most likely against Dany, or at least wanting to kill her Dragons.

[JonHo]

This is from a Clash of Kings, page 465: “The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life.”

[Winter's Knight]

Did anybody notice in the preview for next weeks episode, Jaqen H'ghar told Arya that "the red god" must have three lives? That may not be exactly what he said, but I know he said red god, in connection with the three deaths he owes Arya. I know that part was in the book, where Arya gets to have Jaqen kill three people, but in the books he never called it the red god. Red god to me means R'hllor, but the Faceless Men surve Him of many Faces.

That's going to be strange if the show has the FM worshiping R'hllor, because the Red Priests of R'hllor are for Dany(in Volantis anyway), and the FM are most likely against Dany, or at least wanting to kill her Dragons.

No, he calls it the red God in the books as well:

“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their places. Speak the names, and a man will do the rest.”

I think they'll make Talisa a Lannister, just to make Robb's mistake more clear cut.

[Ghost714]

Robb was 14 in the books, not 30 as in the show.

Robb is definitely not 30 in the show. All the characters are around three years older, than they are in the books. That puts Robb around 18.

[JonHo]

Exactly. This scene also ties into Robert telling Ned about Joffrey torturing his pet cat and Cersei demanding that he not be punished for it. Now we see him years later and he's graduated to torturing prostitutes. Not only was I condemning Joffrey while watching that scene but I was also hating on Cersei for creating this vile monster. No checks were ever put on him. He's a sociopath, just as portrayed in the books.

Yeah thats cute, but Robert and Cersei are both responsible for the way Joffrey turned out.

[Ghost714]

This is from a Clash of Kings, page 465: “The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life.”

Thank you, I can't believe I forgot that.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Robb is definitely not 30 in the show. All the characters are around three years older, than they are in the books. That puts Robb around 18.

He looks 30, regardless of whether he's supposed to be 18 or not, Obviously, he cannot truly be 30.

[Winterfellian]

I haven't read the entire thread but here are some of thoughts on tonight´s episode:

- As a whole I loved it despite the deviations from the books. I like that they are keeping some of the story lines out of each episode now. Even though I do miss dome of the characters it is better for the show.

- Harrenhal was awesome...way better that I imagined it. All the scenes there were amazing and so was Maisie William. I like the way they are shortening Arya's story line. They are doing such a fantastic job

- Littlefinger is probably the one thing that isn't doing it for me this season. Is not only the actor but I didn't appreciate the ''I love you since I was a boy scene''. Where is the enigmatic cunning and devious player from the books? This coming from someone who loathes littlefinger

- Renly and Stannis parley was another great scene (I did miss the peach but we can´t always win them all) What is he a ham? made me laugh

- Peter dinklage...I don't need to say more. We couldn't have asked for a better Tyrion.

- The whore scene as uncortable as it was to watch I appreciated it because is so much in line with Joffrey. Let's face it he did terrible things in the book too. The brothel scene from episode 2 was way more uncomfortable and useless for me

- The shadow scene was just too awesome for words.

As a whole I just loved the episode. Am watching the series with my brother (whom I've been trying to get to read the books for a while now) and after tonight's episode he asked if he could borrow them!

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Yeah thats cute, but Robert and Cersei are both responsible for the way Joffrey turned out.

You can definitely say that Robert had a hand in it for neglecting Joffrey, but lots of sons have absentee fathers. They don't all turn out to be prostitute bashing psychos though...Cersei had a much more active role in her son's upbringing. The feeling I got from the books is that the cat incident wasn't a totally isolated event. Especially considering that Tommen says in ADwD that sometimes he had to "go inside himself" to escape horrible situations in relations to Joffrey which is just a mindfuck to think about in and of itself. Cersei saw these types of things go on and she never corrected him. She just fanned the flames even more by instilling the kingly sense of entitlement upon him.

[Ghost714]

He looks 30, regardless of whether he's supposed to be 18 or not, Obviously, he cannot truly be 30.

Ugh.. I never thought he looked 30. Especially in the first season before he grew a beard. I think him and Jon both look like there in there 20's.

[rmholt]

No, I'm sorry :(

Ha ha well he did give her his cloak when Tyrion asked someone to do so - notably it was a bit of a mess compared to Trant's - interesting contrast of honor and cloak soiling

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I am dumbfounded that someone would get through watching this great pile of awesomeness and then run immediately to their computer to start complaining about it. Here are some facts...

1. The TV show is not the books. It is based on the books. It is also being translated with as much care and appreciation as any work of fantasy that I have ever seen. This includes the LOTR movies by Peter Jackson. I actually think this is much closer to the books.

2. The characters are not the exact same characters. First of all, to eliminate confusion, some characters have been merged with other character, and some have taken on different personalities. The point, is that the overall story arc is still being lovingly told here. I try not to judge any performance based on the book character, but instead base it on how well they are acted. So far the level of acting in this series is as remarkable as anything that i have ever seen on television, including Shae, Peter Baelish, and Joffery. They are nailing their performances every time. They are all achieving the emotional discourse that they are being directed in outstandingly.

3. Ros is a character on the show. Get the fuck over it. Her role is not a waste of space, she is providing a great narrative, and she is smoking hot. She is also nailing her role. the look of fear on her face as Joffrey forces her to beat her fellow worker was some of the best acting on tonight's episode, and as I already mentioned, this is remarkable because of how well acted this series is.

Agreed.

Well said. Agree 100%. Book readers should be happy that this story is being told on tv and on a channel that can truly do it justice. It's an adaptation, name me an adaptation that is 100% accurate to its source material and i will name you a liar.

Not many books get portrayed with such great production quality, acting, budget, etc. Plus, the overall story that the books tell is being told, just in a more t.v./hbo friendly manner.

This should be pinned to the top of every single one of these threads.

Ugghhh I KNOW RIGHT?!! How dare these people interrupt your circle jerk with their own varying and diverse opinions? If they dare to post on these boards with opinions that differ from yours, they are totally wasting everyone's time, including their own AND there must be something wrong with their BRAINS!!!! Clearly, as evidenced by the fact that they don't agree with every blessed word that's coming off your divinely inspired fingertips, they don't properly appreciate the HBO series, like you do, and it's just an art form entirely wasted on them! ONLINE FORUMS ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU 100%, ANYONE ELSE IS AN IDIOT AND CAN SHOW THEMSELVES THE DOOR!

[Leia]

Well, I really missed Sandor's "Enough!" in the show and I'm hoping they won't cut the scene when he catches Sansa :frown5:

And I think it's good Dany didn't show the dragons, they're too small still and it's too dangerous among these greedy men :devil:

Overall an excellent episode though, every episode is better and better actually, can't wait for the season finale! :D