[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

[A Time for Wolves]

I'm incredibly grateful to the time they put in to make the show. It is the one TV show I make time to watch. Doesn't mean though that I (or anyone else) has like or stay silent to things that don't make sense, don't flow, don't follow logic, etc.

+1

When we criticize, it's because we don't want to see this show tank because of the inconsistent, bad writing. I'd like to see GoT survive till the end of the series, which will be a decade away if we're lucky. If they're making it unwieldy, disjointed, and difficult to follow in the first half of season 2, what are non-readers going to do by the time Davos goes to Skagos and Tyrion is running around with The Golden Company?

[David Selig]

Well, I really laughed throughout the whole 'Jeyne-thing'. Can anybody imagine Robb Stark, the King in the North, would fall for a common camp follower nurse? Love does not overcome class distinctions in Westeros. How can they possibly integrate Davos and him being uncomfortable about being a noble of sorts, and intend to make this girl a queen?

It really is too ridiculous to rant about it...

Just because there are sharp class distinctions, doesn't mean the higher born don't fall for the common. They just don't marry them except in really exceptional cases, but falling in love should be far more common. It happened a few times in the books for people of Robb's rank or close to it - Tyrion and Tytos Lannister for example, and at least a few of all those bastards in the books weren't born simply from lust.

Plus for all we know, it may be revealed that the girl is a noble.

[DirePenguin]

Tyrion said this after he rescued Sansa. What does it mean? He's talking about Catelyn?

"lady stark. you may survive us yet"

[Evamitchelle]

Tyrion said this after he rescued Sansa. What does it mean? He's talking about Catelyn?

"lady stark. you may survive us yet"

No he's talking about Sansa. He's reflecting on the fact that her courtesies will save her life.

[Apoapsis]

I was terrified for a moment that he was going to make her do something much, much worse with that mace or whatever it was.   :eek:   :bawl:

That's what I thought as well.By the way, it was a sceptre, wasn't it? At least that's what I thought - it made it even more symbolic in my head, using a symbol of royalty and power to beat up prostitutes.

[Ran]

It was pretty clear that Melisandre was being taken to a place where she could use her sorcery to kill Renly -- Davos certainly understood that, and I think the audience should get it as well. Fair enough that we don't know "why" she has to be closer, or how that cavern relates to where Renly is, but it just takes a bit of supposition to guess that Melisandre has a maximum range, so to speak, and is vulnerable and somewhat noticeable when birthing a shadow... so getting closer, and doing so under cover of a cavern that exits near Renly's camp, seems pretty reasonable.

But maybe that's me.

BTW, the gate? A real one installed in that cavern in NI for some reason, I've been told -- maybe to keep people from spelunking because it's sensitive and/or dangerous.

[Isabella Stark]

For all the fretting about butterfly affects and 'how are they going to go from Point A to Point B now that they've changed Point A?'

I think everyone needs to remember that the producers and writers know just as well as we do where the story "needs" to go. Better in fact, because GRRM has shared his long term story outline with D&D.

Regarding Arya being Tywin's cupbearer- it's a tribute to Maisie Williams' awesomeness that they decided to put her in scenes with Charles Dance. I'm looking forward to watching the two of them interact. Also, it'll also simplify things for the non-reader viewers so they don't have to get to know a whole bunch of new characters (ie, those people Arya is working for when Harrenhall is run by the Lannisters).

And, this episode provided a better explanation for why Arya doesn't have Jag'hen kill Tywin- because Tywin came in a save Gendry from being tortured to death. I also think that being Tywin's cupbearer, Arya will see him more as a person, not just as her family's enemy. (I've never gotten the impression that tv-Tywin or book-Tywin is needlessles cruel and sadistic. He's very ambitious and pragmatic, and will take very extreme steps to further his goals, but he doesn't strike me as someone who's randomly cruel to the servants.) I never really bought it that Arya just "forgot" to have Jag'hen kill Tywin. I think this way, she'll know that she's "supposed" to have Tywin killed, but he saved her friend and if he's kind to her, she'll find it hard to kill him. So we'll probably get some interesting scenes where Arya is torn about what to do, vis a vis Tywin.

Also, after Joff's prostitute-abusing scene, I'm glad we'll get to see Robb's love story. It'll be nice to see some characters have a loving sexual relationship.

[CrypticWeirwood]

BTW, the gate? A real one installed in that cavern in NI for some reason, I've been told

Probably to keep the Knights Who Say NI from crawling in at night and hooting their insidious NIs up from the depths of the castle.

[Isabella Stark]

It was pretty clear that Melisandre was being taken to a place where she could use her sorcery to kill Renly -- Davos certainly understood that, and I think the audience should get it as well. Fair enough that we don't know "why" she has to be closer, or how that cavern relates to where Renly is, but it just takes a bit of supposition to guess that Melisandre has a maximum range, so to speak, and is vulnerable and somewhat noticeable when birthing a shadow... so getting closer, and doing so under cover of a cavern that exits near Renly's camp, seems pretty reasonable.

But maybe that's me.

BTW, the gate? A real one installed in that cavern in NI for some reason, I've been told -- maybe to keep people from spelunking because it's sensitive and/or dangerous.

I agree.

It was perfectly clear that Stannis' and Renley's armies are near the coast. Davos took Melisandre someplace in a boat. From the reader perspective, he was transporting her to be closer to the target. From the non-reader perspective, the episode ended on a big cliffhanger. I'm sure they're wondering, "What's going to happen with that shadow thing?"

[FiveByeSeven]

Loved that Harrenhal wasn't an animated clockwork machine in the opening credits. It was a hollow ruin, just sitting there. Drove home the point that it's a menacing, dead husk and eerily counterpoints all the intro's mechanical castles.

QARTH! Loved, loved, LOVED Qarth's appearance on the map, and the way the camera soared high above Westeros, zoomed past the burning astrolabe, and dollied straight onto Qarth.

I cannot wait for the map to expand further. I want to see them play around more with the intro's camerawork.

Edited April 24, 2012 by FiveByeSeven

[Apoapsis]

The first time I saw the Qarth scene I was a little annoyed that evidently the Qarthians (judging by the Thirteen, minus the savage from the Summer Isle) are a bunch of white dudes. After watching it again I've changed my mind, most of them look like they could pass for mediterraneans/middle easterners, except the speaker. But it's very odd how they seem to have no noticable non-Westerosi accent whatsoever when the only two people from Braavos we've seen, Syrio and Jaqen, have very obvious accents. And Braavos is a lot closer. Does everyone on Essos except the Braavosi and the Dothraki speak the Queen's English?

[Howdyphillip]

All those Houses aren't going to support someone who can't have a true heir (hence the political marriage to Margaery).

And why would Renly not be able to procure a true heir? Should I give a blow by blow here on how babies are made?

There were four fairly non refutable gay kings of England as well. Richard 1st (Richard the lionhearted), Willem II, Edward II, and James I. Out of these four, only Willem II did not marry. Richard did not produce an offspring, but James I and Edward II did.

My point is, is that Renly's sexuality was well known across the seven kingdoms, as a wide verity of characters talked about it in the books.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I cannot wait for the map to expand further. I want to see them play around more with the intro's camerawork.

+1

[CrypticWeirwood]

And why would Renly not be able to procure a true heir? Should I give a blow by blow here on how babies are made?

You’re right. It was a pretty stupid remark. Gay men have kids all the time, both then and now.

[Michaelj]

+1

When we criticize, it's because we don't want to see this show tank because of the inconsistent, bad writing. I'd like to see GoT survive till the end of the series, which will be a decade away if we're lucky. If they're making it unwieldy, disjointed, and difficult to follow in the first half of season 2, what are non-readers going to do by the time Davos goes to Skagos and Tyrion is running around with The Golden Company?

Well I and many others are enjoying the series and tis getting good ratings so your post is kinda b/s tbh.

[Frey Pie]

Mixed feelings over the episode. The Lannisters are stealing the show-the actor who plays Tywin is as good as Dinklage for Tyrion in my opinion.

Robbs also doing a great job. There are financial constraints but is it that expensive to show even a few men fighting? For a non-reader hearing that the Starks lost one for every five Lannisters sounds good but it doesnt show the tactical brilliance of Robb, and the ineptitude Stafford. Nor does it say where the battle took place. Its key to know at this point that Robb has caught Tywin off balance again and is now in the West

Joffreys scene was shocking but thats the idea i suppose. Most of the reactions to Joffrey so far is that everyones waiting for him to die. Imagine after Neds death last season, what the uproar will be like after the RW with Joff still alive.

Episodes do seem shorter. Renly and Stannis was handled well. I was indifferent to Mel at the start but i think shes doing a good job now. Also Catelyn seems to be growing into her role. The shadow looked excellent. Pity about not seeing Storms End. Would non-readers know how outnumbered Stannis is?

Loved Harrenhal. Gendry and Aryas storyline is coming together nicely. Lancels part was also played well-just what i imagined hed be like

Quarth will be interesting-looks good

[Winter's Knight]

And why would Renly not be able to procure a true heir? Should I give a blow by blow here on how babies are made?

There were four fairly non refutable gay kings of England as well. Richard 1st (Richard the lionhearted), Willem II, Edward II, and James I. Out of these four, only Willem II did not marry. Richard did not produce an offspring, but James I and Edward II did.

My point is, is that Renly's sexuality was well known across the seven kingdoms, as a wide verity of characters talked about it in the books.

Just so-Renly was a member of the royal family and Loras is a famous knight known for his prowess at tourneys. It is not to be wondered at that their closeness was well known.

[tearloch]

The girl with Robb is Jeyne, however they are depicting her, she is just putting on a show. Why would she tell the king that her family is warring with that she is a highborn lady? Perfect hostage situation. She speaks her mind to Robb, and sets up that she will be tending to Robb's wounds later in the series.

My thoughts exactly. She even reprimands him a bit for killing green boys who have no idea why they are fighting except because the man that owns their land shoved a spear in their hands. She is hiding her identity because what would you think would happen to the daughter of a bannerman of the enemy? Remember, the Lannisters have his two sisters, and she has no idea who Robb is or what he is capable of. I think it was a nice set up by HBO for coming episodes, as I was actually let down by the books on how they introduced Jeyne, based on the giant mess she ends up causing.

Did anyone catch the member of the 13 at Qarth that looked like (what I picture as) one of the Undying? Also, the city was spectacular, atleast the little glimpse we got of it. I didn't like the confrontational nature at the gates, but I guess it emphasizes that nobody in Qarth cares about her or her people, and only really care about the dragons. Does a good job of setting up her eventual exit from the city.

What was the deal with Ned's bones? I guess it doesn't change the end result, since Tyrion does eventually release them.

New Mountain? Boo! Not big enough!

Tyrion is the MAN! Lancel's reaction to Tyrion was priceless. Also loved Tyrion's example of the difference between a threat and a lesson for his nephew in the throne room. I love Bronn - "There is no cure for being a cunt." Joffrey is an evil little monster. Counting the days until that little shit is wormfood.

Overall pretty good episode. The most troubling part of it for me was Tywin immediately identifying Ayra as a girl, but not connecting the dots with the missing Stark girl (or does he know that Arya is missing?). I think it takes away from the cunning nature of Tywin (ironically, by showing his cunning nature.....)

[David Selig]

Renly is an enemy of the Lannisters, it's quite possible they deliberately spread the news that he's gay to discredit him and increase the morale of their own troops. Similar things have happened in history.

[Ser_Niall]

Your that worried about Ned's bones? I am pretty sure they can still get lost when Catelyn gets killed and unkilled or whatever.

I think they spent time because, as LF said it was Tyrion's way of showing good faith. He gave her this without anything from her. She can still decide to do something or do nothing. It was another way to show how vastly superior Tyrion is at working with, understanding, and manipulating people than his relatives in Kings Landing right now.

I guess it's true that the bones could get lost, and come up later on. I just figured based on the Theon chapters in ADWD that Ned's bones come into importance later on in the series. Maybe not.. :)