[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

[_Oberyn_]

i'm curious. How long was Melisandre's "gestation" in the book? In this chapter they made it seemed pretty short.

Short, in the book there is two shadows only a few days apart.

The problem is that I'm not sure the audience is going to take it that way. Someone like Joffrey, who actually has the power to carry out horrific acts, is going to be regarded as far more terrible than someone like Daenerys, who currently lacks the potential to burn cities to the ground. I do know a few show-only viewers who were perturbed but the majority weren't, and while that may count for little I suspect it's her current desperation that will lead a lot of viewers to give her a great deal of leeway.

While the viewers are very casual and they can be forgiven for still watching the show expecting fairy tale structure, there is no excuse for the readers. If you want the princes to live happily ever after there is a thousand books out there that do just that, this is not one of them.

[boojam]

i'm curious. How long was Melisandre's "gestation" in the book? In this chapter they made it seemed pretty short.

I think in the book its all black magic, George gives no time frame, it could be instantaneous, after all R'hllor is involved.

Edited April 24, 2012 by boojam

[DaveSumm]

Re: Gregor casting. People are saying it's a hard role to cast, surely it isn't because he has so few lines? Casting call: ANY ABSOLUTE BEEFCAKE. May need to grunt and look angry through a visor every now and then. Wields a two handed great sword with one hand? Wears armour that most men couldn't move in? This guy didn't look capable of any of these things.

[boojam]

Watching again, I think the teleplay tried to punch up Dany's entrance into Qarth more than it needed to be.

More confrontational.

So in Dany I in CoK it is Pyat Pree, Xaro Xhoan Daxos,and Quaithe who come to Vaes Tolorro to see both Dany and the dragons , the decision had already been made to let Dany and her crew into Qarth.

In Dany II , CoK, she rides into the city with Drogon on her shoulder.

So that whole confrontation at the gates could have been avoided. Rewriting the story here for the teleplay would have been just fine.

The powers of city had already decided to give her sanctuary and protection, so nobody was going to steal her dragons.

So if I had been writing that scene, and the 'spice merchant' asked to see a dragon, pop out Drogon, everyone would have gone WHOA! She would have waltzed right in.

The spice merchant's (was he one of the 13?) already knew she was Daenerys Targaryen, but no need to follow the exact narrative of the novel, just the spirit of the scene, I think that would have been more effective.

(By the by Dany not being able to ride into Qarth on her Sliver is a bummer, that was nice visual construct by George in the book. More the puzzle about the 'Silver' thing.)

[Inigo]

First of all, I am baffled by the people complaining about people complaining. We all love the books, and are entitled to our opinion. The show isn't perfect and there is nothing wrong with people saying so. Some of the decisions made by the producers are necessary due to budget etc, others are confusing/frustrating and I see no problem talking about it . Just because you like something doesn't mean everyone else has to, and when people feel as passionatley about a subject as they do about this series they wont, and dont have to accept something they feel falls short of the quality the book deserves. Some people are too harsh on the adaption and expect it to be exactly the same as the books and others would accept anything because they feel they are just lucky to have the books made into a tv show.

This was by far my favourite episode of the second series . Was very worried after the first three, with last weeks episode being by far the worst in both series imo. Loved the first season, but this one was starting to make me wish the show hadn't been adapted to tv, and was also really turning off many of the viewers I know, some who have read the book and others who haven't. Thankfully this episode has restored my faith and I am back to being excited by the show.

This may have been Tyrions best episode, Bronn had the quote of the night, Harrenhal looked great, I also enjoyed the Qarth scene and dont think the dragons were needed.

I can see why people thought the Joff scene was unnecessary and it did have an element of beating you over the head with something that should already be clear. Having said that, discussing it with the people I watched it with, one said that Joffs cruelty towards Sansa could be because of his anger at Robb, but this scene showed that he is sadistic and cruel whenever the opportunity presents itself.

Overall, very good episode.

[Silverx2]

Absolutely. Yes, there will always be idiots whining about the 7" tall guy not being big enough, but most of the criticism that has been about the writing is perfectly legitimate. Those who are upset by that should probably find another forum to frequent... I mean what is this forum for anyway, to spam threads about how awesome and perfect everything is? :rolleyes:

the guy from season 1 looked like he really could cut a horses head off, This guy looks like he could barely lift a sword, his armor hangs off him like xmas lights on a tree.

[LifeRuiner]

I haven't read through all 26 pages of discussion but surely I'm not the only person who thought that Dany was played by the Qartheen and that Xaro vs. Merchant of Spices was a good cop vs. bad cop play?

I didn't think we needed to see the dragons, it was interesting to see how show!Dany does without them.

[birdsong66]

I am completely on the fence regarding this episode. It would seem, with only the inclusion of exact lines of dialogue from the novels, that HBOASoIaF is becoming a distinctly different animal. I'm not a fanatical novel-purist, but at some point one has to wonder about the butterfly effect many of these alterations to the original will have.

Is there any possible way to balance out the egregious level of female nudity with male nudity, not exclusive to that of the Renly/Loras variety? I'm mean, fair is fair, is it not? The female on female variety now boarders on redundant. It's not even interesting enough to bore me, antlered septer or no. He's a psychopath....yes, thank you...before I was unclear about his lack of marshmallow center and gooey goodness....I've got that straight now.

Margery: Julia Child called, she wants her funnel back, so I guess you'll have to find an idle cheese grater to fashion into a fascinating ensemble.

Nurse Volantis: Just, no. Please do not tell me that we're traveling down this road with Robb and Volantis. Is this not the same storyline available to the masses devoted to daytime soap operas? Throw in star crossed lovers and we're off to Young and the Restless territory.

Davos does not want you, Melisandre. He is revolted by you. He is a better man than Stannis. WTF?

LF? What. The. Fuck.

Just, whatever, for pretty much the entire thing, IMO.

[BlackTalon]

That Brotherhood question is sure to confuse a lot of viewers ... would it have been so hard to let the Tickler ask: "Where are the men of Lord Beric's brotherhood/outlaw troop?" , that would have tied it to the scene in King's Landing where Ned sends lord Beric off after the Mountain.

That guy is a total Steve McQueen lookalike, BTW

[Morrigan]

This is another area that initially has me rolling my eyes, but also crossing my fingers. Yeah, no question this character is horribly misplaced and a grand cliche. However I am going to try to accept some of her as she is and maybe it will grow on us; I can give the benefit of the doubt and hope this works out. Then again, I said the same thing about Shea and that turned out to be a huge misfire.

[...]

Train. Wreck. I stated it before- the writers/producers said that they met the woman who is playing Shea and they immediately loved her. She was older had a different accent and then they decided, almost on a whime, to change the character to fit the actress. The result? Its not working, and its not just because this woman's acting is ... uhm... different... they kept the original Shea's story lines but have shoved that Shea's dialog into this Shea's mouth and its utterly unbelievable. The prodcuers thought they did not need to recreate Shea; just explain away the accent and the age etc and it would work. It has not. And everytime she talks I am reminded how much its not working.

Shae. Shae. Shae. Shae.

Repeat after me. Shae.

(Sorry. :D)

So what?

All of you are going to watch the Season to the End.

Even it is the biggest piece of trash you will watch it, only because you can say what all was wrong.

I have no problem with the changes, or Characters like Ros or Shae (the Actress is very good in Germany). I have read the first 4 Books, but I am not a Book-Maniac, like a lot of the people here.

PS: Sorry for the poor English :frown5:

What a trite, useless post.

This is discussion forum, people. If you have a problem with people discussing the series, then what the hell are you doing here?

Edited April 24, 2012 by Morrigan

[Anduin Lothar]

Just one question... I thought the books indicated that Xaro was fair skinned... but in the show he is black? Is that right? Not that I care one way or the other, i'm just worried if i am getting my characters confused.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Anduin Lothar

[Lannes]

That Brotherhood question is sure to confuse a lot of viewers ... would it have been so hard to let the Tickler ask: "Where are the men of Lord Beric's brotherhood/outlaw troop?" , that would have tied it to the scene in King's Landing where Ned sends lord Beric off after the Mountain.

That guy is a total Steve McQueen lookalike, BTW

Totally agree and I'm at a total loss as to why they did that scene that way. Brotherhood who???

Hell, my wife, who read ACOK a few years ago, is getting confused watching the series....

Except for Roz....Everytime she comes on screen, my wife says, "OK, she's the one NOT in the books, right?" :drunk:

[LifeRuiner]

Just one question... I thought the books indicated that Xaro was fair skinned... but in the show he is black? Is that right? Not that I care one way or the other, i'm just worried if i am getting my characters confused.

That's right. I also think that the actor was perfectly cast.

[Morrigan]

Xaro Xhoan Daxos was a pale Qartheen, yes, and the show changed him to be a Summer Islander who lives (and rules as part of the Thirteen) in Qarth. So far he has played the part nicely, and I don't think such a minor character's ethnicity was relevant so that's not a problem to me.

[Dr. Killjoy]

What a trite, useless post.

This is discussion forum, people. If you have a problem with people discussing the series, then what the hell are you doing here?

Reading. Learning. Laughing.

[So1ar]

Just one question... I thought the books indicated that Xaro was fair skinned... but in the show he is black? Is that right? Not that I care one way or the other, i'm just worried if i am getting my characters confused.

I like the actor playing him, but in the books he is as white as snow.

[Ghost714]

I am completely on the fence regarding this episode. It would seem, with only the inclusion of exact lines of dialogue from the novels, that HBOASoIaF is becoming a distinctly different animal. I'm not a fanatical novel-purist, but at some point one has to wonder about the butterfly effect many of these alterations to the original will have.

Is there any possible way to balance out the egregious level of female nudity with male nudity, not exclusive to that of the Renly/Loras variety? I'm mean, fair is fair, is it not? The female on female variety now boarders on redundant. It's not even interesting enough to bore me, antlered septer or no. He's a psychopath....yes, thank you...before I was unclear about his lack of marshmallow center and gooey goodness....I've got that straight now.

Margery: Julia Child called, she wants her funnel back, so I guess you'll have to find an idle cheese grater to fashion into a fascinating ensemble.

Nurse Volantis: Just, no. Please do not tell me that we're traveling down this road with Robb and Volantis. Is this not the same storyline available to the masses devoted to daytime soap operas? Throw in star crossed lovers and we're off to Young and the Restless territory.

Davos does not want you, Melisandre. He is revolted by you. He is a better man than Stannis. WTF?

LF? What. The. Fuck.

Just, whatever, for pretty much the entire thing, IMO.

Just because Davos does not like Melisandre, that does not mean he can't be physically attracted to her. Any guy with eyes would be attracted to Melisandre, she is beautiful, mysterious, and very powerful. Hell even a lot of woman would be attracted to Melisandre, so I have no problem with that scene at all.

And there is never going to be the same amount of male nudity, to female nudity. It's not like this show is the first show to be "unfair", that's how it is with almost any show or movie. Male viewers just have more of a desire to see female nudity, and not nearly as many females want to see male nudity. Just like how guys as a whole watch porn more than woman as a whole, and I actually think it can be argued that there is quite a bit of male nudity in this show, way more so than a lot of other shows. I know it's not near as much as the female nudity, but that's just the way of the world.

I also think you should give the Robb love story some more time before you judge it. Most like she was Jeyne Westerling, pretending to be a nobody from Volantis.

I do agree about the butterfly effect, and I have the same belief as GRRM, when it comes to an adaptation, you should stick to the source material as much as possible. The show should not be something completely different than the books, GRRM has even said if you can't stick with the original story, then don't make the adaptation, write your own story.

And that's what I don't understand, GRRM ultimately has no control over the show, if they want to make a drastic change, he has no power to stop them. Yet when GRRM agreed to let them do the show, he expressed that it was his wishes for them to stick to the original story as much as possible, and D&D are big fans of the books and GRRM, so I thought that they would try and respect GRRM's wishes, as best as they could. The first season was so good, because they stuck to the books very closely, I don't understand why they changed so much for season two. Most of the changes to the first season were bugetory reasons, and that is completely understandable, but the changes in season two are ridiculous. For the record, I am not talking about condensing Arya's story, and stuff like that, we all know which changes have been ridiculous and pointless. If they are making so many changes now, then I really fear for the future story, because there is going to be so much butterfly effect, that they will be forced to make huge changes down the road, even if they don't neccisarily want to, because they made so many pointless changes already.

[legba11]

On Dany and her dragons. That scene was a power play. Fatty Spice wanted to make her completely submissive to their will. She didn't want to give up the only power she has (which is the wonder of her dragons, they serve no other purpose right now). If she gives in to him, she is a beggar queen with some cool pets. She has no martial forces (2 bloodriders and an aging knight), she has no money, she has no followers (worth anything). She digs in her heels and refuses and it works. XX sees potential in a queen with dragons, as a trophy wife and perhaps more. He decides she is worth taking a risk on.

On the knowledge of Catelyn. She was working around. She made a scene in the middle of a tournament. Every single person (100,000) in Renly's camp knows she is there. If Varys does not have an informer amongst that army, he is the worst spy master in the history of the world. This is a man who knows the movements of a boy and girl on the other continent, is it possible he doesn't know about major player publicly appearing in his enemy's camp a week's ride away? I guess it's possible in a world where the most powerful Lady on the continent (there is no lady Lannister, so Lady Stark clearly gets that title) doesn't know that the heir to the throne was born and died.

[elshaggy]

Harrenhall looked phenomenal. So much creepier and haunted than I had imagined. The scenes inside we're spot on to how I expected them to look. It's a bummer about the Mountain but I can't say I'm upset.

I had a feeling the episode would end in the shadow birth and leave viewers hanging on there. That scene also rocked. This was my favorite episode this season, but I think they will keep getting better as we move towards Blackwater!

[Dragon of Valyria]

Xaro Xhoan Daxos was a pale Qartheen, yes, and the show changed him to be a Summer Islander who lives (and rules as part of the Thirteen) in Qarth. So far he has played the part nicely, and I don't think such a minor character's ethnicity was relevant so that's not a problem to me.

Yeah, I actually liked that. It was a bit of the external influencing the internal I think, what with people asking in season one "where are the black people?" Well, the Summer Islands are where they'd be, so it works for me.