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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion


Ran
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Something that struck me this episode is that I'm liking Hot Pie more and more. The actor does a great job with is facial expressions.

I've read lots of comments since the last episode and yours is the first I've read about Hot Pie. He was great! And I was so scared that Gregor was going to pick him...my stomach was in knots. He really doesn't have a heck of a lot to do from here on out (at least, I don't think so) and...well...they did kill off Dany's Silver...you never know.

Edited by TyrionFan57
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Untrue.

Stannis is King; his desire to be King has, literally, nothing to do with Stannis' actions (in fact, IIRC, in the books, Stannis specifically says that he simply became King when Robert died and that his desires play no roll in the decision). Stannis is the King and much like Robb Stark and Jon Snow, Stannis does his duty with grim determination. When Ned becamse Hand he, literally, thought that it was the last thing he wanted. Would Ned have been noble had he refused Robert? Nobody questions Ned's motivations. Same with Jon Snow-

if Jon Snow really wanted to, couldn't he just refuseto be Lord Commander? But wouldn't that be shirking his duty? How come its okay for John to accept being Lord Commander and nobody gives him grief for doping so but Stannis gets grief for doing his same duty?

Here with Stannis, Stannis became King because Robert died with no true-born children. For Stannis to deny this would be tantamount to treason in Stannis' mind. His duty requires him to be King once Robert accepted the crown. Stannis always thought it was a possibility and now has to (as opposed to "wants to") act on it. This is what makes Renly's treason so anathema in Satnnis' mind; Renly is absolutely not the King. Renly's argument - that "nobody" wants Stannis to be "their" King -is irrelevant; nobody elected Robert, Aerys, Daeron or Aegon King; "want" has absolutely nothing to do with this. Renly is Stannis' heir and that should have been that- the same way Stannis was Robert's.

Stannis Baratheon is doing his duty; people ignore this because Stannis' duty is not one that requires sacrafice; "Its Good to Be King" as Tom Petty said many moons ago, and so if Stannis is trying to be King nobody attaches good or noble motives to that. But take a step back- much in the same way Ned and Jon and Robb and many others do their duty is the same way Stannis does his. That- in and of itself -has nobility and honor to it.

Though.... he could be nicer about it ...

Your whole arguement though is defeated with one monologue from maester Aemon in season 1.

It was his duty to take the thone, and he declined it to become a maester.

If Stannis didn't want to be king, he had a brother who could accept the seat in his place. if Stannis didnt want to be king he had a choice and he chose to go to war over something he didnt even want.

Ned accepted King roberts offer to be hand because there was literally nobody else. Jon arryn was dead, Robert had no other true friends left.

Stannis had a choice, Ned did not.

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Your whole arguement though is defeated with one monologue from maester Aemon in season 1.

It was his duty to take the thone, and he declined it to become a maester.

If Stannis didn't want to be king, he had a brother who could accept the seat in his place. if Stannis didnt want to be king he had a choice and he chose to go to war over something he didnt even want.

Ned accepted King roberts offer to be hand because there was literally nobody else. Jon arryn was dead, Robert had no other true friends left.

Stannis had a choice, Ned did not.

It's all kind of tangled mess, as far as the Baratheons go, and I suppose everyone in the realm now accepts that a Bratheon does not sit the crown , Stannis is the rightful Bratheon.

But by length of rule and unification should not a Targaryen be the REAL rightful heir?

We don't know how many there are of those left, one for sure, maybe two, maybe more.

No one , well except Dany, ever mentions that.

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In the show, he (LF) held a knife to Ned's throat in front on a room full of witnesses, she probably doesn't know about LF's deal with Ned, but there is no way everyone in that room remained silent about what happened that day. He agreed to take care of Ned, and instead he attacked him when he got arrested (and was on the stage for his death).

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Your whole arguement though is defeated with one monologue from maester Aemon in season 1.

It was his duty to take the thone, and he declined it to become a maester.

Not at all. Aemon was a maester of the Citedel by that point and therefore, no longer in the line of succession. He had aconflict of duties. His duty to the Citadel superceaded his duty to his family. Nobody questions that.

Stannis has no superceding duty. He is Robert's oldest surviving heir. That's that.

If Stannis didn't want to be king, he had a brother who could accept the seat in his place. if Stannis didnt want to be king he had a choice and he chose to go to war over something he didnt even want.

YOu are mistaking choice with desire. Stannis is next in line; his duty to the realm compells him to be King in the same manner as every lord who becomes lord or King. Renly is not the next in line; hence he cannot be King. Had Stannis refused his right THAT would have been the epitome of selfishness. Again, Sannis "wanting" it or not is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

Ned accepted King roberts offer to be hand because there was literally nobody else. Jon arryn was dead, Robert had no other true friends left.

Terrible criteria for Hand- no "friends" left? Why would the Hand need to be a friend? And there was "literally" nobody else? Did a plague hit Westeros that I missed? Tywin, Stannis, Renly (book Renly, not Series Renly), Tarly, Mace Tyrell, etc etc all would have made very good hands. You greatly overstate the lack of Robert's options. And regardless Ned could have said no; certainly easiler than Stannis could have said no.

Stannis had a choice, Ned did not.

Then why did the book clearly indicate that Ned had a choice?

Edited by Rockroi
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If Stannis really didn't want to be a king, he wouldn't have made his claim for the crown. Nobody forced him to do it, it was his own choice.

Besides, let's not forget he's a big time hypocrite and has no PoV, so anything he says should be taken with a big grain of salt.

"Rockroi" had a really good post about this, and I could not agree more with it. Stannis did not want to be King, but he did want to do his duty, and follow the law, I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

How is Stannis a hypocrite?

@Silverx2

Your quote from Maester Aemon means nothing. You can claim there was nobody else, but Ned, but that's not true, Ned knew Robert had two brothers, that could be Roberts Hand. Saying that Stannis shouldn't have started a war, because he did not want to be King, is ridiculous. People were proclaiming themselves as King left, right, and center. So Stannis had no choice but to fight them, because it was his duty to his people, the second Robert died. Also Stannis believes that laws should be made out of Iron, not pudding, and at that time a bunch of people were breaking the law for their own conveniences. So Stannis also felt it was his duty to uphold the laws in place.

One could also argue that Maester Aemon was already a chained Maester when they asked him to be King, so really he was doing his duty as a Maester, by turning down the Crown, and giving it to his brother.

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I have not sat down to read the books, but before I started watching the series last year I read ahead to see how interesting the story actually would be.  If the story was too stupid or predictable or juvenile I would have skipped watching the series.  I've since skimmed some of the books, especially chapters of pivotal events.  I have not had any trouble keeping up with what's going on during the series, and I like to believe I see some of the depth they're adding into the characters.

The show continues to impress me with how well it's executed.  This latest episode hasn't changed my opinion.

The only thing that made me wince on this episode was Littlefinger's "fate has given us this chance" line.  That seemed very out of character to me, but I can also guess that after finally seeing Catelyn he was emotionally overwhelmed and simply lost his cool.  It makes sense to me Catelyn would be his weakness.  It also seems a simple matter that she can soon command Ned's remains passed along to Winterfell, even off-screen.

I appreciated the "whore" scene.  I can't say I liked it, it was hard to watch.  But every time you think you hate Joffrey enough, they find a way to make you hate him even more.  And it worked, on me.

I think the Sansa scene lost some of its bite since they couldn't bare her topless.  I imagine dresses showing more of her bosom than was barred in the hall.

The end of the episode puzzles me a bit.  You really would think the death of Renly would make a great cliffhanger.  How they're going to reconcile the reasoning behind the "shadow creature" being birthed inside Storm's End to get to Renly in his tent eludes me.  But, I do have faith in the show's creators to tell a good story, so I'll reserve judgement until we see how it all plays out.  Same for Robb's woman.  Same for Arya and Tywin.  To do otherwise isn't fair to the show.

As has been mentioned by others, the length of the episodes does distress me.  When the credits rolled my clock showed 7 'till.  Add to that the time taken by the (unnecessary) "here's what has happened unto now..." montage at the beginning.  Without this show I probably wouldn't be subscribed to HBO, and I do want my money's worth.

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what I didnt like about "tickling" One of the Sand Snakes referred to tickling as what Oberyn did to Gregor. That was also the impression I got of the Tickler's job, or that of his minions - using a sword/spear/other sharp instrument to inflict painful nonfatal wounds during the questioning.

The rat bucket didnt impress me.

A minor complaint.

About Robb and the nurse - The way he got with Jeyne was much more interesting in the book but perhaps all the show needs is for Robb to get married, setting up the Red Wedding.

I hate it though - too formula.

Marie

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I'm curious. Is the fact about littlefinger betraying Ned a well-known thing? How could Catelyn know about it? Did Sansa know what littlefinger did?

She didnt, i think. She just knew that it was in his power and he clearly failed.

Or maybe like in the books when Arya blames Sandor for not saving her mother.

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Stannis isn't really proclaiming himself Azor Ahai reborn, Melisandre is, Stannis is just not denying it, because he feels it might help him fulfill his duty.

And again, Stannis never wanted to be King, he says as much in the books, but now that the situation has happened, he feels it his duty to do everything he can to become King, because by rights of the law, he is the rightful King of Westeros. So I would not say that both Renly and Stannis are full of themselves in the sense that they both want to be King, because only Renly wants to be King. Stannis just wants to do his duty, that he feels he now has to the people of Westeros. Stannis also wants to show that laws need to be made of iron, not to be bent. Renly just thinks he is the best man for the job, and so he should be King. Nobody can think like that, and not be full of themselves.

And you have still not pointed out the frequent oral sex in this episode, or any oral sex for that matter, let alone having to "see more oral sex than you wanted to".

And there really was not a lot of nudity in this episode, especially in comparison to most of the episodes. If I remember right, you see the whore getting beatin naked, and Mel gets naked to have her "baby", that's it, I think.

Ghost, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree about the amount of nudity in the episode. As for seeing more oral sex than I wanted to; I didn't want to see any oral sex. I would think that Roz sticking her head between the other prostitute's legs and behaving, in terms of physical motion like she was doing sexual things constituted a very close facsimile of oral sex; if it didn't, it was still more than enough for me, and totally unnecessary to advance or enrich the story. That particular moment did not last long, but it was not even in the books; I think that for some reason, perhaps to satisfy some unwritten HBO rule that There Must Be Nudity and Sex in every other episode (no, I haven't counted), the producers and writers of the series are making an effort to include blatant acts of sex by naked people (as opposed to people in a bed, or partially nude, whatever). I'm not a puritan, but I don't care for pornography, and there is a lot of material in this series that, if not technically porn (and it looks like it to me), comes very close to it. The sexual scenes between Drogo and Dany were absolutely storyline-dictated, even though they changed the way he treated her on their wedding night, the progression of sexual pleasure and love between them was very well done, and came mostly from the books. The bathtub scene between (?) Doreah and Viserys was not, but at least was a better case of exposition (is the term they use sexposition? can't remember) than the unbelievable scene where Littlefinger bares his innermost thoughts and memories to Roz & friend while the women are having sex with each other (or stimulating it, it looked close enough) - as if Littlefinger would ever reveal such information, even though he didn't name specific people, to his employees.

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HBO knows that of all the Law and Order spinoffs, SVU is the most popular. Criminal minds has become unwatchable from the graphic psychopathy. It's sad. Yes, there is sex and violence in the books - but it requires our attention and imagination to come to life. Having it shoved in my face, so to speak, is unpleasant.

As to Sandor when Sansa is being stripped - at the time he is Joffrey's dog. He does step forward with his cloak - again note how stained it is compared to meryn;s - when requested. I dont recall him trying to stop Joffrey doing anything while in his service. There are things Joffrey knew better than to ask bc Sandor wouldnt do it.

Marie

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Oh Gosh, I've just finished watching the episode and i'm like: what's going on with the show?!

I mean it's so different from the book, they deleted important dialogues and put new ones.

What about Robb and Talisa?! Of course, she's Jeyne but still...

What about LF going to Renly's tent and the dialogue with Cat? I must say I really loved that scene, but stop giving LF this great importance, he'll be one of the most important characters, but not now!

What about the dialogue in front of Qarth's door?

And Harrenal...it's a bit messed up!

Also I didn't really like Davos bringing Melisandre to give birth to the shadow. It's going to happen later, with the second kill at Dragonstone...

Cat's role has been reduced, she was totally pointless in front of Stannis, while she played a big part in the event concerning Renly/Stannis!

I'm not that happy with that season as I was with the first one! :/

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On the issue of sex/nudity: HBO often uses it gratuitously and GoT is no exception. Some scenes more so than others I would say.

In any case, tirelessly complaining about it only strengthens HBO's policy! If it's controversial it sells. If people raise this issue every week, it becomes the norm. GoT is now known for showing political intrigue in a medieval setting AND gratuitous soft porn. Negative publicity is still publicity so they'll continue this even more after all the so-called "outrage". To all the people who hate this side of the show: don't give them any reason to continue, ignore it!

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Untrue.

Stannis is King; his desire to be King has, literally, nothing to do with Stannis' actions (in fact, IIRC, in the books, Stannis specifically says that he simply became King when Robert died and that his desires play no roll in the decision). Stannis is the King and much like Robb Stark and Jon Snow, Stannis does his duty with grim determination. When Ned becamse Hand he, literally, thought that it was the last thing he wanted. Would Ned have been noble had he refused Robert? Nobody questions Ned's motivations. Same with Jon Snow-

if Jon Snow really wanted to, couldn't he just refuseto be Lord Commander? But wouldn't that be shirking his duty? How come its okay for John to accept being Lord Commander and nobody gives him grief for doping so but Stannis gets grief for doing his same duty?

Here with Stannis, Stannis became King because Robert died with no true-born children. For Stannis to deny this would be tantamount to treason in Stannis' mind. His duty requires him to be King once Robert accepted the crown. Stannis always thought it was a possibility and now has to (as opposed to "wants to") act on it. This is what makes Renly's treason so anathema in Satnnis' mind; Renly is absolutely not the King. Renly's argument - that "nobody" wants Stannis to be "their" King -is irrelevant; nobody elected Robert, Aerys, Daeron or Aegon King; "want" has absolutely nothing to do with this. Renly is Stannis' heir and that should have been that- the same way Stannis was Robert's.

Stannis Baratheon is doing his duty; people ignore this because Stannis' duty is not one that requires sacrafice; "Its Good to Be King" as Tom Petty said many moons ago, and so if Stannis is trying to be King nobody attaches good or noble motives to that. But take a step back- much in the same way Ned and Jon and Robb and many others do their duty is the same way Stannis does his. That- in and of itself -has nobility and honor to it.

Though.... he could be nicer about it ...

Here, here. Agree with every word. To be honest, the ideas you so accurately spelled-out here are why I have always had a soft spot for Stannis. He's a king before whom I would gladly bend the knee. He is a truly just man, even the Spider says so in the books. I don't agree with everything he says and does, but I'll take a just king (even one might sometimes be too rigid) who is fulfilling the role because he genuinely believes it is his duty and he, therefore, has no choice but to do his best, over a greedy, grasping king who wants the throne for his own aggrandizement any day.

That said, Renly might actually have been a great king, but he had no right, and comparing his situation to Robert's seizing the throne by rising to depose his rightful king because he happened to be an insane tyrant is a laughable analogy. One must recall that Robert didn't just declare himself king. The rebellion succeeded and then he ended-up on the Iron Throne only because, of the victors, he had the best claim; House Baratheon's founder having been rumored to have been a bastard brother of Aegon the Conqueror and Robert's own grandmother having been Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V, known to us as Egg from the Dunk & Egg novellas. As such, Robert had royal blood through the female line, causing him to be declared king.

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Your whole arguement though is defeated with one monologue from maester Aemon in season 1.

It was his duty to take the thone, and he declined it to become a maester.

Wrong. He was already a maester at that point. The crown was quietly offered to him, true, but the Great Council was contemplating doing something unheard of by having the High Septon absolve him of his maester's oath so he could take the crown. Should oaths be so fluid a thing that they can be set aside so easily? I think not. I do believe, however, that had Egg not been there as a fall-back, Aemon would have had no choice but to set aside his personal honor and accept for the good of his House and the kingdom as a whole.

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Why would the Hand need to be a friend? And there was "literally" nobody else? Did a plague hit Westeros that I missed? Tywin, Stannis, Renly (book Renly, not Series Renly), Tarly, Mace Tyrell, etc etc all would have made very good hands. You greatly overstate the lack of Robert's options. And regardless Ned could have said no; certainly easiler than Stannis could have said no.

Also, to strengthen your point, we should acknowledge that the position of Hand of the King is very similar to and perhaps a direct stand-in for the office of Chancellor to the old English kings, many of which were not even lords, but lawyers and churchmen. Even mad old Aerys confirms this by filling the office with a member of the Alchemists' Guild and three comparatively minor lords during his reign.

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Also I didn't really like Davos bringing Melisandre to give birth to the shadow. It's going to happen later, with the second kill at Dragonstone...

You mean Storm's End, not Dragonstone; and, the point is moot, because they're cutting that. I love me some Sir Cortnay Penrose, but only a TV producer who was retarded would waste $$$ from an already-stretched budget to cast an actor who has exactly one scene, then dies. And, as much as I would love to see Storm's End, that would waste a ton of $$$ too.

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