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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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Jack Gleeson just nails his role every episode. He and Dinklage seem to really get the characters and I love watching them.

Yes I cant wait to see him die!!!

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He looks 30, regardless of whether he's supposed to be 18 or not, Obviously, he cannot truly be 30.

Robb does not look to be in his 30s, I'm 26 and I don't see him as being older then me; he could be my age, a little bitty more (like 28, MAX) or less...

Anyway, it’s ok, since they aged everyone the show..

Edited by Maroucia

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She is hoping for the false romantic San/San interaction.

Whatever you call it, it’s still supposed to happen.

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Robb does not look to be in his 30s, I'm 26 and I don't see him as being older then me; he could be my age, a little bitty more (like 28, MAX) or less...

Anyway, it’s ok, since they aged everyone the show..

I think he looks 30, and 28 is much closer to 30 than 18. I was responding to another posters comment regarding Robb/Joff's age. I do not have a problem with the aging up of characters. They have to in order to have sex scenes. Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl

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I think he looks 30, and 28 is much closer to 3o than 18. I was responding to another posters comment regarding Robb/Joff's age. I do not have a problem with the aging up of characters. They have to in order to have sex scenes.

Ok, sorry if I didn’t follow the whole conversation. I’m with you on that anyway.

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She is hoping for the false romantic San/San interaction.

The book SanSan moments are not false-they may be interpreted over-enthusiastically but that's a standard feature of fandom.

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The book SanSan moments are not false-they may be interpreted over-enthusiastically but that's a standard feature of fandom.

Winter's Knight, did you change name? I'm all confused now... :huh:

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At first I was disappointed by the changes this season, but now I'm glad that we're seeing things that we didn't get to see in the books (Loras/Renly/Maegaery, even more of Joff's sadism, etc.) At this point the only thing that bugs me is characters not dying when they're supposed to die (I'm looking at you Doreah). Anyway, back on topic, I really love what they've done with Davos. His character feels much more real (for lack of a better term) in the show. In the books, I always got the impression that Davos was just a window into Stannis' storyline, and that he didn't add much to the series (although that's changing with ADWD).

I also loved the scene where Tywin was dissing his men. I'm guessing Bolton isn't going to take control of Harrenhal since Arya is going to be acting as Tywin's cupbearer.

Edited by AeonFrog

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She is hoping for the false romantic San/San interaction.

Is that supposed to be snark remark - I'm sick of people ripping on those fans, so what if they like San/San it's actually more plausible and yes romantic in some ways than any other couples in the entire series. It's not imaged when he asks her to come with him Blackwater, nor was imaged when he gave her that damned cloak right before he nearly defended her. esp for Sansa's arc because she likes love stories and love ballads so much thus anything remotely resembling a 'song' if you will intrigue people. AND nothing in this series is romantic in any sense (regarding major characters), this happens to come close so people latch onto it.

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I liked the episode, but man--I really, really, really hated the Joffrey and Ros scene. And it's not because I hate Ros (I do) and it's not because I think the show should slavishly adhere to the books (I don't), it's because it *completely* knocks the wind out of Sansa's sails. Here you have this amazing, powerful scene of the king ordering his lady wife to be beaten, humiliated, and abused by a member of the kingsguard--the knightliest of knights (in theory)--in front of the court. Powerful scene just underlining both how horrid a king he is, and how Tyrion Lannister is, no matter what else, a decent person. The scene was perfect, down to Tyrion's grand entrance--and the look that's exchanged between Tyrion and Sansa is priceless. I'm not a shipper, I don't care about any of this pairing nonsense--I just think it underlines (again) how Tyrion cares for broken things, and how grateful Sansa is to have one person treat her with humanity at King's Landing, though of course we learn that she's not going to let herself say something unguardedly.

And then we get the prostitutes scene to follow up, which is going to be all anybody talks about. That's complete nonsense, and it goes along with this:

I have only one complaint and it's regarding Sansa, I feel like the writers have forgotten she's a POV, hence main, character. Not some random side line character for Cersei and Joffery's to emotionally and physically torture. She had one great scene last episode when she's reflecting on herself in the mirror and her interactions with Shae. Hope that changes soon.

7/10 :D

Agreed completely. In the commentaries, Dave and Dan (along with the writer Cogman) always say that they don't understand why Sansa is so disliked. Well, I don't think it's any fault of Sophie Turner, as she turns any scene she's in into gold because she really *gets* the character. The problem is that they made her far brattier in season one than she was in the books, and now when there's a chance to turn people around on her, they don't give her much agency at all. The last episode did an admirable job in trying, but people got mixed messages with her yelling at Shae. Obviously we can't get into her head, and we can't just see her moping around Red Keep... but since they don't mind inventing scenes for characterization, they could think of something!

In defense of the Joffrey/whores scene...

  • He beats up on Sansa--Well, there's bad blood between them (war and all that), and she's far more a prisoner of war than a queen. There is no reason to presume from this that the way he treats Sansa will be the way he treats Margaery.
  • He has commoners/drunk knights tortured--again, the Tyrells would think they are above such risk. They are a powerful house, not like the rabble.
  • He had Robert's bastards killed--an ugly order, but some may call it justified
    As someone above noted, a teenage boy is presented with two naked young ladies in a room... and his reaction is to have them beat each other? The mental depravity of that scene goes far beyond anything we've seen before. (parts of quote snipped out)

Yeah, I don't think that's true. For one thing, I'm not sure anybody highborn in Westeros cares about hookers--if anything, they'd care about them less than the commoners. Remember the bit from season one where Varys remarks about the somewhat odd tastes that Littlefinger's brothels cater too? It'd be regarded as a quirk, not something to horrify. But prisoners of war, even in this world, are supposed to be treated with decency, at least if highborn. Torturing captives is not acceptable--especially if they're ladies. I think that alone would be sufficient--but if not, what he does to the whores is something shocking to the audience, not to the Tyrells or others like them.

Edited by Dragon of Valyria

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What was with the acting this episode? Anything Danny was horrible, Stannis/Renly was just... wooden, and blargh.

Tyrion and Bronn, of course, managed to steal the show. The only quality acting in this episode, besides Arya and Tywin. There's a lot of hate for the Joffrey scene (similar to Ros in the last one), but it worked very VERY well. Cannot wait for the guy to die.

Too much Littlefinger. I'm getting bored whenever I see him. He's not even that important. What was the point of the Margaery bit with him? He should have had a quarter of what he did. I "like" the guy and everything, but there's far too much of him.

Melisandre and Davos was... amazing. I knew they'd end an episode with it, and just WOW. Amazingly done. Can't say anything more.

Most of the episode was bad. They managed to pull off an utterly amazing finish, though. Can't wait for next week. Hopefully it has more Arya.

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Honestly, this episode felt every bit as dark and disturbing watching as I felt when reading the books. Which is a great achievement, but also a worrying one. I know the fans of the books will not have a problem, but the casual TV viewer might find it a little too much to take. Everyone like dark and edgy when it's comic book "dark and edgy", like true blood stuff. But when it's real dark most people don't have the stomach for it.

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Is that supposed to be snark remark - I'm sick of people ripping on those fans, so what if they like San/San it's actually more plausible and yes romantic in some ways than any other couples in the entire series. It's not imaged when he asks her to come with him Blackwater, nor was imaged when he gave her that damned cloak right before he nearly defended her. esp for Sansa's arc because she likes love stories and love ballads so much thus anything remotely resembling a 'song' if you will intrigue people. AND nothing in this series is romantic in any sense (regarding major characters), this happens to come close so people latch onto it.

I don't know if this is accurate, and I hate throwing out unsubstantiated remarks--but I was told that GRRM had at one point confirmed that Clegane planned to rape Sansa after the Blackwater, but asked for a song instead. If so, that completely throws out any possible notion of a romance--if there is anything at all romantic about someone of his age and an eleven year-old (or thirteen year-old, here). I don't like getting involved in arguments with shippers, given what usually results from those (and I don't have a horse in this race, except that I like Sansa) but it doesn't seem like the healthiest relationship. It's stockholm syndrome if anything else, and it wouldn't be good for Sansa to say "well, nobody else has treated me with anything resembling affection, so I'll go for this very dangerous and scary guy!"

But anyway, I suppose that's a discussion for another time.

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Thought the episode was solid and I like where they're going. Bolton got a few changes to fit a visual versus a written medium. Liked the decision to use Tywin for Harrenhal. Xho I thought would be long and thin, but looks like they're using a giant Shaq looking guy instead. Jeyne Westerling looks good, and they're laying the groundwork for where the Frey storyline is going to go. I like that they truncated the shadow babies into one baby to represent Stannis' son, and Lady Margaery is obviously becoming the Marg/Queen of Thorns hybrid.

Loved the QoT, but for television it makes sense to have one Natalie Dormer/Anne Boleyn/Margaery/Queen of Thorns handle all the heavy lifting. It gives the actress enough screen time and responsibility to become a force in King's Landing, plus it eliminates the awkwardness of making her powerful right now, but a mindless servant girl when the QoT enters the scene and starts telling her what to do. You don't want two different actresses contradicting each other and fighting for screen time.

I don't like the way the shadow baby made that horrible screech. It was supposed to be Stannis in shadow form, y'know? Why would it screech? And it was soooo hard to see it. I also think that she should have talked about how they needed to row her there because of the magic locked into the stones of Storm's End. That would've been a good explanation. I like that they kept the rotten onion part, but if I had to cut one line, it would be the latter, b/c the former explains WHY Davos had to smuggle her beneath the walls.

That's too much. Show, not tell. We don't need to know why the baby had to be smuggled in.

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I used to be Winterbreath :D

I was sure it was you, not only because of the avatar, but mostly because of the biennsa shipping! ;)

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The book SanSan moments are not false-they may be interpreted over-enthusiastically but that's a standard feature of fandom.

I wouldn't call a young girls interaction with a self-loathing drunken man romantic. IIRC, she was frightened after being attacked,

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In defense of the Joffrey/whores scene...

I think it does quite a bit more than just show the progression of his depravity. This scene solidifies why, once the Lannister/Tyrell alliance is made, Joffrey must die. Think about what we've seen of Joffrey up to this point from the perspective of a powerful family like the Tyrells:

  • He beats up on Sansa--Well, there's bad blood between them (war and all that), and she's far more a prisoner of war than a queen. There is no reason to presume from this that the way he treats Sansa will be the way he treats Margaery.
  • He has commoners/drunk knights tortured--again, the Tyrells would think they are above such risk. They are a powerful house, not like the rabble.
  • He had Robert's bastards killed--an ugly order, but some may call it justified

While many of these actions can be a bad PR issue for the Crown-Tyrell alliance... none are a serious threat. What Joffrey does with the whores, is.

As someone above noted, a teenage boy is presented with two naked young ladies in a room... and his reaction is to have them beat each other? The mental depravity of that scene goes far beyond anything we've seen before. Margaery can never be safe married to this Joffrey. That is why the Tyrells will take on the huge huge risk of assassinating the king. Not just the king, but a Lannister king. I'm sure the Tyrells have heard the "Rains of Castamere," and they need a better reason to take that risk than "Joffrey has a mean streak." That is why we will have the Purple Wedding.

In the books, the Tyrells decided to kill Joffrey because of his repeated abuse of Sansa - who was a highborn maiden. I doubt they would have cared enough about Joffrey's abuse of two prostitutes to kill a king (and a king who could sire a future king on Margaery a lot sooner than Tommen could).

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