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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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I was sure it was you, not only because of the avatar, but mostly because of the biennsa shipping! ;)

Ah yes-I fear that the good ship Briennsa will suffer a fate similar to Harmony in the Harry Potter fandom.

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but I was told that GRRM had at one point confirmed that Clegane planned to rape Sansa after the Blackwater, but asked for a song instead. If so, that completely throws out any possible notion of a romance

Well, of course he wanted to rape her because he thought it was the only way he could "have" her in a way... But when he faced her we see he is not that kind of person, he still has good in his heart and he only took the song in the end because he, in truth, didn't want to harm her... I especially felt it is all true and deep when she cupped his face and he just said "Little bird..."

And besides, silence and eye contact can speak more than words.

But yes, a discussion for other topic. :D

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Ugghhh I KNOW RIGHT?!! How dare these people interrupt your circle jerk with their own varying and diverse opinions? If they dare to post on these boards with opinions that differ from yours, they are totally wasting everyone's time, including their own AND there must be something wrong with their BRAINS!!!! Clearly, as evidenced by the fact that they don't agree with every blessed word that's coming off your divinely inspired fingertips, they don't properly appreciate the HBO series, like you do, and it's just an art form entirely wasted on them! ONLINE FORUMS ARE ONLY FOR PEOPLE WHO AGREE WITH YOU 100%, ANYONE ELSE IS AN IDIOT AND CAN SHOW THEMSELVES THE DOOR!

Do you have an opinion to discuss? I am very open for an honest discourse on the merits of viewing the show as a purist, or one who enjoys the adaptations. All I see here is vitriol.

I don't think everyone should agree with me, as i have pointed out in a later post. I enjoy discussion, or else I wouldn't be in a forum. I just don't understand what it is you want me to discuss here..

There are several discussions in this very thread about reasons that people did or did not like a scene. Some of them are very well thought out, and elucidated thoroughly. I will use Rockroi's example of what he didn't like about the Garden of Bones scene as an example. He explained very well what he didn't like with the inconsistencies he saw in the characters and their motivations. Another poster retorted with their own ideas that differed from him, and pointed out a different viewpoint. He validated his viewpoint with evidence from the books and TV show. All of these things are productive to a discussion.

I contrast that with posts that just basically point out how the TV show and book are different ergo the poster hated it. The later, I find to be narrow minded. We have all read the books here. Some of us dozens and dozens of times over the spans of years. Spotting discrepancies can be cool. endlessly whining about them for their own sake grows a little tiresome for me. Just as you have the right to be happily unhappy about the changes in this series, I have the right to talk about what i think about this.

In short... Get the fuck over it... Feel free to take my advice, or not however you so choose.

Edited by Howdyphillip

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I don't know if this is accurate, and I hate throwing out unsubstantiated remarks--but I was told that GRRM had at one point confirmed that Clegane planned to rape Sansa after the Blackwater, but asked for a song instead. If so, that completely throws out any possible notion of a romance--if there is anything at all romantic about someone of his age and an eleven year-old (or thirteen year-old, here). I don't like getting involved in arguments with shippers, given what usually results from those (and I don't have a horse in this race, except that I like Sansa) but it doesn't seem like the healthiest relationship. It's stockholm syndrome if anything else, and it wouldn't be good for Sansa to say "well, nobody else has treated me with anything resembling affection, so I'll go for this very dangerous and scary guy!"

But anyway, I suppose that's a discussion for another time.

I'd be interested in knowing whether GRRM definitely confirmed that the Hound planned, before entering Sansa's bedchamber on the night of the battle, to rape her.

I don't think that book-Sansa and book-Sandor are necessarily soulmates/future lovers; but I do think they formed some kind of bond during Sansa's time in King's Landing. He was one of the few people who was always honest with her, and actually gave her some very useful advice. And since Sansa had no father or protector once Ned died, she was very alone and needed every possible ally that she could find; even a somewhat dangerous one like Sandor. He did stand up for her to some extent; and also saved her life. It's realistic that she developed some kind of semi-romantic sympathy for him; it's not like Sansa was being courted by a handsome prince her own age who was not a vicious monster.

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I wouldn't call a young girls interaction with a self-loathing drunken man romantic. IIRC, she was frightened after being attacked,

As I said before, even if you didn’t like their interactions in the books, it’s still an important part of Sansa’s arc, and also a relatively important part of the ASOIAF story, so if HBO keeps ignoring it, something is going to be lacking in the end.

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LadyStormheart, amputation is not the same as decapitation, lol. Decapitation is what happened to Robb's daddy. :P

I'd be interested in knowing whether GRRM definitely confirmed that the Hound planned, before entering Sansa's bedchamber on the night of the battle, to rape her.

I don't think that book-Sansa and book-Sandor are necessarily soulmates/future lovers; but I do think they formed some kind of bond during Sansa's time in King's Landing. He was one of the few people who was always honest with her, and actually gave her some very useful advice. And since Sansa had no father or protector once Ned died, she was very alone and needed every possible ally that she could find; even a somewhat dangerous one like Sandor. He did stand up for her to some extent; and also saved her life. It's realistic that she developed some kind of semi-romantic sympathy for him; it's not like Sansa was being courted by a handsome prince her own age who was not a vicious monster.

Reasonably put. I wouldn't disagree with any of that, especially "semi-romantic." I'd say it's not what we'd want in a romance, and I certainly wouldn't be cheering for it, but I mean--she did imagine a kiss, and there's a reason for that. I happen to think it's not healthy, but that's not the same as saying it doesn't exist. You're right on the money here.

Edited by Dragon of Valyria

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it’s still an important part of Sansa’s arc

I disagree. The Hound protected her, there was some excellent characterization in there, but people like Dontos, Tyrion, or Joffrey are important. Not the Hound.

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Joffrey was aroused by torture.

Robb was aroused by women decapitating people.

Correction: Amputating people. Maybe the Starks have a bit of Bolton blood in them?

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I disagree. The Hound protected her, there was some excellent characterization in there, but people like Dontos, Tyrion, or Joffrey are important. Not the Hound.

Well, I also disagree with you since Sansa, in ASOS and AFFC, keeps thinking about Sandor in ALL of her chapters!!! Something is growing there; GRRM is not the kind of writer to throw stuff in his stories for no reasons…

Of course, it’s all for us to see in WOW, but Sandor is definitely, at least as important as LF and Tyrion in Sansa’s arc, even if he has not been there physically for her in the last two books.

Edited by Maroucia

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I liked this episode. The Lannister-saving-a-Stark juxtaposition (Tyrion-Sansa and Tywin-Arya) was a nice touch, and I liked that they brought Tywin to Harrenhal instead of Bolton. I can't wait for Arya and Tywin to interact! And like many have said, I have never been so happy to Tywin Lannister as I was when he rode up and put and end to the torture.

Cateyn, Renly, Stannis, Davos, etc were all fabulous. Even Littlefinger, and I usually hate Littlefinger. The shadowbaby scene was almost creepier than it was in the books - I can't wait to see That Scene in the next episode, because it actually stands out as one of the scariest scenes in the novels for me. I can't read that scene if I'm alone and/or it's night time.

I wasn't a fan of the Jeyne Westerling replacement. Was anyone else unimpressed by the Robb-Talisa conversation? I dunno, I just didn't buy it and it felt out of place...she trots out some eye-roll worthy anti-war arguments, and he bothers justifying his actions to a village healer? :dunno: Just seemed to jar with the overall tone of the series.

Also, one thing that I really appreciated about the original Jeyne Westerling of the novels was that she was unremarkable. In a story where all the power-player women are strong and proud, where some of them are seductive courtiers and others are warriors, Jeyne Westerling was strangely refreshing because she's the only queen who isn't quite worthy of her crown. She's just an ordinary, timid, somewhat naive teenage girl who is nice but bland, sweet and loving but not particularly strong, shrewd, or ambitious. Like Jaime Lannister observed, she's not worth losing a kingdom for. I always thought that was interesting, and even touching that Robb Stark saw something beautiful and worth fighting for in her.

Talisa comes off as a character from a lesser romance novel: the spirited commoner who wows the alpha lord with her beauty, sauciness, idealism, and I'm-not-impressed-with-you attitude. I did my time with Harlequin*, I don't need to see that again.

Another bit that I wasn't too impressed with was Joffrey's uber sadism with Ros (who has impressively managed to stay clothed this season) and Pycelle's unfortunate bedwarmer. It just didn't seem necessary. We already have seen his sadistic streak many times before, and if people didn't catch on then, they certainly caught on when Sansa was stripped and beaten - which, by the way, was even harder to watch on screen than it was to read. I love how she coolly swept out of the throne room after that, even managing to impress Tyrion. No wonder Joff hates her: no matter how much he hurts her, she won't let him take her dignity and her self-respect. Go you, Sansa, I liked it when you did this in the books too.

*for the laughs, I swear.

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I wasn't a fan of the Jeyne Westerling replacement. Was anyone else unimpressed by the Robb-Talisa conversation? I dunno, I just didn't buy it and it felt out of place...she trots out some eye-roll worthy anti-war arguments, and he bothers justifying his actions to a village healer? :dunno: Just seemed to jar with the overall tone of the series.

This is the second time the writers have introduced a character who is convienently not from Westeros, and not familiar with the customs, so they can chastize our hero (this time Robb) and become a love interest. It was lazy writing with Shea and it isn't any more interesting with Jeyne 2.0.

This was far and away the worst episode ever of Game of Thrones in my opinion.

How exactly did the Lannister guards, at the beginning, know about Renly and Loras? They are at the other end of the continent! In a medieval like period! How the hell would they know? Is Littlefinger the Westeros version of TMZ? Sending out Ravens with the latest and greatest Kings Landing gossip? What the hell....

The Joffrey rape scene was redundant. We already know he is a sadistic asshole... please see the last scene with Sansa.

Harrenhal was a wreck. To the overly complex torture method (clearly dreamed up in the writer's room at 2 in the morning), to extra's blabbing about all their dead relatives (to no one in particular). And sadly, Arya's prayer, a truly heart breaking and character defining moment which lacked any emotional resonance.

I thought last weeks episode was a real winner, but this was a train wreck. I don't particular care if they diverge from the books, I just want a smart sometimes sexy and sometimes violent version of Game of Thrones. This was none of the above.

Edited by pleonasm

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Episode was OK. Not to big of a fan with the new mountain. Should of use the same guy.

Changed some stuff from the book with Tywin using Arya as the cup bearer instead of Bolton.

I think the interaction between Renly and Stannis is bit different from the book to the TV. I remember reading from the book Renly was more like care free and not as serious . Where as Stannis was iron and uptight. In the TV it seems like Renly is more serious and Stannis is bit weakly played by the actor. I think Patrick Steward could done a better a job playing Stannis. I don;'t know this other actor that is playing Stannis comes out little creepy to me. I mean toward the last scene when he is on the boat with Davos. He comes out creepy.

In the book there was the peach scene which HBO didn't played showed the interaction between the brothers. Renly care feel and confident and Stannis intense and on the edge. I didn't really get it from HBO......

Plus I kind of like the Renly on HBO ...too bad this guy is going to die .

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Yes, a lot of the delicious subtext falls by the wayside, but I think the compressions and simplifications (especially for Arya, Stannis and Robb) have been done very efficiently. Props from this one.

The LF/Cat interaction gives viewers a chance to suss out who's behind the Dontos escape plan. That quick cut to the Hound during Sansa's beating makes me think they'll play up that subplot in the next few episodes, which will be interesting; Tyrion/Meryn was golden.

Arya's scenes were fantastic. Tywin Lannister, y u so charismatic?? The BWB namedrop as nice; no doubt Arya will overhear a lot more about them at Tywin's elbow.

Loved the Baratheon parley in the books, enjoyed it here. "Is he a ham?" makes me think certain ADWD theories are right on the money. And Stannis my one true king just for the "fewer" comment. :bowdown:

ETA: Roose Bolton and the Tickler this week; the banality of evil indeed :D

Edited by Été

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I wasn't a fan of the Jeyne Westerling replacement. Was anyone else unimpressed by the Robb-Talisa conversation? I dunno, I just didn't buy it and it felt out of place...she trots out some eye-roll worthy anti-war arguments, and he bothers justifying his actions to a village healer? :dunno: Just seemed to jar with the overall tone of the series.

I was also definitely unimpressed by that scene. It just seemed very random, and Robb being so impressed by this girl was really unrealistic and didn't make much sense. As pleonasm said, it reminds me of Shae also, making female love interests "foreigners" having an attitude, and thinking that for some reason that makes them better characters.

Plus, she talked back to Roose Bolton..she should get killed anyways!

Edited by Davos55

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Many people have said this, and others have nicely refuted it, but I think it bears repeating:

The Tickler is not supposed to look creepy. He's supposed to look plain and ordinary. For fuck's sake, people, villains are not always ugly and evil-looking, twiurling their mustaches, that's the whole point of the Tickler.

Ahem, rant over.

Well your rant wasn't needed. I know The Tickler wasn't supposed to look creepy but he's supposed to be creepy and questions someone. Arya gets the chills in ASOS when he asks a question at the Inn. That's what makes The Tickler so creepy, he looks ordinary but he's far from it.

I don't think most people are complaining because The Tickler doesn't look creepy but rather how he goes about questioning just wasn't what most interpreted him to be like.

Edited by Jack's Smirking Revenge

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Unnecessary Joffrey scenes aside, it was an okay episode.

People like watching women getting abused ,raped and tortured, preferably while naked, we get it.

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I don't recall Ned's bones ever being returned.

I thought Bolton was the one that chose Arya for a cupbearer not Tywin.

They were returned. Tyrion sent them to Cat at Riverrun and she sent them to Winterfell with Hallis. Whether they actually got there remains a mystery.

And Arya was Bolton's cupbearer. They're just switching it around a bit.

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