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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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Epic episode. Each one gets better than the previous. This season has been masterfully done. My only complaint is that Renly wasn't eating his peach... I still chuckle at how much that stuck in Stannis' craw.

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Another great episode.

Harrenhal and Qarth on the map - that was awesome!

Robb scenes at the beginning were ok. I really like the guy, perhaps more than the book character. Non-book readers will be devastated at the end of next season. I didn't catch the thing with Jane at first, but then realized they are setting up her storyline, when she crosses paths with Robb again. Is there a single scene with the guy when noone screams The King in the North? Roose was kind of creepy. I think he will do great.

Well, Joff in the books didn't scare me so much, but this guy in the show.. There really is NO cure for being a cunt. Bronn was awesome as always. Liked it when he threatened Ser Meryn. The scene with the prostitues ... hm.. Usually I'm fine with it, but this time it was a bit harsh. But at the end - hey, it's HBO - I knew from the beginning that there are going to be such scenes. As long as the show gets more seasons, I'm ok with everything.

I find Renly and Stannis really great in this episode. Now I can see Renly - the king everybody loves. And Stannis is showing some charisma too. The scene with the dialog between them was a bit short, but the actors did their job and I bought it. Margaery continues to be lovely. I really see some QoT there. It seems that this season we are getting a lot of LF. Don't mind as long as we get to see Varys as well. The setting up of the whole letting-Jaime-go makes sense. This way it would be easier for the non-book readers to follow Cat's decisions. One thing bothered me though - was it pointed out in the books that Catelyn was aware of LF's betrayal? That came a little unexpected to me. I also noticed the mentioning of the "salt and smoke" thing in the TV show. I guess that is going to be of some importance then ;)

The Lancel-Tyrion scene was hilarious. Loved every bit of it. Peter simply deserves another award. He has become a whole with his character. Every moment with him is great.

We finally see Dany's plot moving somewhere. Not sure about the scenes with her. Nothing interesting happens to her in the second book. The only thing I look forward to is THoU. Can't imagine how are they going to show us all the visions on the screen without spoiling anything.

Harrenhal was really, really awesome! The melted stone was clearly visible and the whole place looked doomed. Maisie is as great as always. The scenes with her prayer got me goosebumps. The Tickler was creepy as hell. I already hate the guy. I am not sure about the whole interaction with Lord Tywin, but I guess it was necessary that the script be simplified. Tywin felt kind of a positive character in this scene. I actually never hated the character but I can't force myself to like him either. The actor is doing a great job though.

And finally, the shadowbaby scene - here we see some well-spent money for special effects. I imagined the baby to be more "shadowy" than "smoky", but that worked too. The scene with Stannis and Davos left me with the impression that Stannis knew about the whole shadowbaby-thing. Is this the case in the books? I can't recall Stannis knowing exactly what was going on there.

I missed Jon and Bran.

Looking forward to the next episode :)

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Ghost, I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree about the amount of nudity in the episode. As for seeing more oral sex than I wanted to; I didn't want to see any oral sex. I would think that Roz sticking her head between the other prostitute's legs and behaving, in terms of physical motion like she was doing sexual things constituted a very close facsimile of oral sex; if it didn't, it was still more than enough for me, and totally unnecessary to advance or enrich the story. That particular moment did not last long, but it was not even in the books; I think that for some reason, perhaps to satisfy some unwritten HBO rule that There Must Be Nudity and Sex in every other episode (no, I haven't counted), the producers and writers of the series are making an effort to include blatant acts of sex by naked people (as opposed to people in a bed, or partially nude, whatever). I'm not a puritan, but I don't care for pornography, and there is a lot of material in this series that, if not technically porn (and it looks like it to me), comes very close to it. The sexual scenes between Drogo and Dany were absolutely storyline-dictated, even though they changed the way he treated her on their wedding night, the progression of sexual pleasure and love between them was very well done, and came mostly from the books. The bathtub scene between (?) Doreah and Viserys was not, but at least was a better case of exposition (is the term they use sexposition? can't remember) than the unbelievable scene where Littlefinger bares his innermost thoughts and memories to Roz & friend while the women are having sex with each other (or stimulating it, it looked close enough) - as if Littlefinger would ever reveal such information, even though he didn't name specific people, to his employees.

I agree that there can be a lot of pointless sex and nudity in the show, but compared to most episodes this one was not bad at all. Again you complained about having to see to much oral sex in this episode, but I think your confused about what actually happened. In the scene with Joff, Ros, and that one whore, Ros goes to touch Joff, and he says " no touch her". So then Ros goes to touch the whore that gets beaten, and Ros is kissing her stomach, and working her way down. As soon as Ros gets to the other whores vagina, Joff says, " can you hit her?" So Ros is only kissing the other whore on the stomach for a few seconds, and there really was not any oral sex going on. Especially compared to the first episode, when we first see Tyrion, we have to graphically hear him getting a oral sex from Ros. Same goes for Renly and Loras in the first episode, we have to hear Renly getting graphic oral sex. So that's all I am saying, compared to other episodes, this one was nothing, and I don't think Ros actually ever gave the other whore oral sex. If she did, it lasted for one second, before Joff asked Ros to hit the other girl, and she was only kissing her stomach for a few seconds. So all and all, I can't see how this episode would make any one "see" to much oral sex, especially compared to other episodes.

Again though, I agree that a lot of the sex scenes are dumb this season, and I agree that the first season, like with Dany and Drogo, had a purpose, and they went along with the book. Really its just the made up whores that have pointless sex scenes this season. I think the one with Melisandre and Stannis had a purpose. Same with Renly and Margaery, and Renly and Loras(if you count that as a sex scene). So if the just stopped the pointless stuff with Littlefinger and his whores, and if they stuck to the books, it would be fine.

The funny thing is, in ACoK, most the sex scenes were with Tyrion and Shae, and they haven't showed any of those this season. I mean Tyrion had sex with Shae enough in ACoK, to wear HBO wouldn't need to add any sex scenes if they showed all of them, but they haven't shown any of them, it's weird.

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On the issue of sex/nudity: HBO often uses it gratuitously and GoT is no exception. Some scenes more so than others I would say.

In any case, tirelessly complaining about it only strengthens HBO's policy! If it's controversial it sells. If people raise this issue every week, it becomes the norm. GoT is now known for showing political intrigue in a medieval setting AND gratuitous soft porn. Negative publicity is still publicity so they'll continue this even more after all the so-called "outrage". To all the people who hate this side of the show: don't give them any reason to continue, ignore it!

I can put up with the gratuitous soft porn during the airing of the episodes. The question is, if they increase the use of Roz and/in soft porn scenes, will I spend extra cash on the dvds of Season 2 when they come out? Right now, I'm not sure.

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I am sure in 30 pages others have brought this up, but if not:

Has anyone else thought that the old woman imprisoned with Arya at Harrenhal who says they killed her son was a very close image of Lady Stoneheart, minus the face scars?

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Another great episode.

Harrenhal and Qarth on the map - that was awesome!

Robb scenes at the beginning were ok. I really like the guy, perhaps more than the book character. Non-book readers will be devastated at the end of next season. I didn't catch the thing with Jane at first, but then realized they are setting up her storyline, when she crosses paths with Robb again. Is there a single scene with the guy when noone screams The King in the North? Roose was kind of creepy. I think he will do great.

Well, Joff in the books didn't scare me so much, but this guy in the show.. There really is NO cure for being a cunt. Bronn was awesome as always. Liked it when he threatened Ser Meryn. The scene with the prostitues ... hm.. Usually I'm fine with it, but this time it was a bit harsh. But at the end - hey, it's HBO - I knew from the beginning that there are going to be such scenes. As long as the show gets more seasons, I'm ok with everything.

I find Renly and Stannis really great in this episode. Now I can see Renly - the king everybody loves. And Stannis is showing some charisma too. The scene with the dialog between them was a bit short, but the actors did their job and I bought it. Margaery continues to be lovely. I really see some QoT there. It seems that this season we are getting a lot of LF. Don't mind as long as we get to see Varys as well. The setting up of the whole letting-Jaime-go makes sense. This way it would be easier for the non-book readers to follow Cat's decisions. One thing bothered me though - was it pointed out in the books that Catelyn was aware of LF's betrayal? That came a little unexpected to me. I also noticed the mentioning of the "salt and smoke" thing in the TV show. I guess that is going to be of some importance then ;)

The Lancel-Tyrion scene was hilarious. Loved every bit of it. Peter simply deserves another award. He has become a whole with his character. Every moment with him is great.

We finally see Dany's plot moving somewhere. Not sure about the scenes with her. Nothing interesting happens to her in the second book. The only thing I look forward to is THoU. Can't imagine how are they going to show us all the visions on the screen without spoiling anything.

Harrenhal was really, really awesome! The melted stone was clearly visible and the whole place looked doomed. Maisie is as great as always. The scenes with her prayer got me goosebumps. The Tickler was creepy as hell. I already hate the guy. I am not sure about the whole interaction with Lord Tywin, but I guess it was necessary that the script be simplified. Tywin felt kind of a positive character in this scene. I actually never hated the character but I can't force myself to like him either. The actor is doing a great job though.

And finally, the shadowbaby scene - here we see some well-spent money for special effects. I imagined the baby to be more "shadowy" than "smoky", but that worked too. The scene with Stannis and Davos left me with the impression that Stannis knew about the whole shadowbaby-thing. Is this the case in the books? I can't recall Stannis knowing exactly what was going on there.

I missed Jon and Bran.

Looking forward to the next episode :)

I always thought Stannis knew. I mean come on, do you think Stannis thought he was telling Davos to take Mel sight seeing? Also, Davos comments on how Stannis looked ten years older, since last he saw him, after Stannis made the shadows with Mel. So I definitely think Stannis is smart enough to realize the "cost" of making such shadows, meaning he would notice the "side effects" after making the first shadow, and yet he agreed to make another. Everybody likes to make it sound like Melisandre tricked Stannis, and that Stannis did not know the price for creating the shadows. I personally think that's rubbish, Stannis knew the cost, and he paid it willingly, and he would do it again. Stannis will do anything to fulfill his duty, to win the Crown. So Stannis would easily be willing to give up ten years of his life, to gain a large part of Renly's army, and Storms End. So Stannis was most definitely willing to make the shadows, and Melisandre did not deceive him.

Edit.

That's actually what I like and respect most about Stannis, he is willing to do what it takes, to fulfill his duty to his people. Stannis will pay the price, even when it's harmful to his own person, he doesn't just make someone else pay the cost.

Edited by Ghost714

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That's actually what I like and respect most about Stannis, he is willing to do what it takes, to fulfill his duty to his people. Stannis will pay the price, even when it's harmful to his own person, he doesn't just make someone else pay the cost.

I think he is in a bit of denial - he claimed to have nothing to do with Renly's death - I think he has a bad case of "clean hands" and has fooled himself into thinking he is not participating but that Mel is seeing what happens, not causing any of it. He is still very skeptical of the Azor Ahai deal and not as impressed with the sword as he would be if he were convinced.

Marie

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I always thought Stannis knew. I mean come on, do you think Stannis thought he was telling Davos to take Mel sight seeing? Also, Davos comments on how Stannis looked ten years older, since last he saw him, after Stannis made the shadows with Mel. So I definitely think Stannis is smart enough to realize the "cost" of making such shadows, meaning he would notice the "side effects" after making the first shadow, and yet he agreed to make another. Everybody likes to make it sound like Melisandre tricked Stannis, and that Stannis did not know the price for creating the shadows. I personally think that's rubbish, Stannis knew the cost, and he paid it willingly, and he would do it again. Stannis will do anything to fulfill his duty, to win the Crown. So Stannis would easily be willing to give up ten years of his life, to gain a large part of Renly's army, and Storms End. So Stannis was most definitely willing to make the shadows, and Melisandre did not deceive him.

Edit.

That's actually what I like and respect most about Stannis, he is willing to do what it takes, to fulfill his duty to his people. Stannis will pay the price, even when it's harmful to his own person, he doesn't just make someone else pay the cost.

He definitely knows she's using her magic in some way to further his goals and that it's costing him, and, like you said, he considers that a sacrifice he has to make to do his duty. Whether he knows specifics vis a vis the shadowbaby is debatable, imo. As rmholt said above, I think he believes she's seeing things that are preordained, rather than -- perhaps -- taking such an active role. I always found it interesting that the quote from the show that some folks are saying was out of character for Renly where he said, "And to think I loved him once" or something like that, was actually close to something Stannis said in the books about Renly after he died; he said he had loved him once, the boy he was not the man he later became. He talked about how Renly had offered him a peach and was clearly feeling some level of guilt, so he knows or at least suspects his hands aren't so clean, even as he's saying they are.

But, in his mind, I believe he feels he's doing what must be done. Stepping aside for Renly to be king is a violation of the law, and, therefore, is not even an option. And neither could he win without Renly's forces, many of which should have been his in the first place. In his mind, Renly sealed his own fate by not fulfilling the role of the dutiful younger brother as he himself did for Robert, only to have Robert treat him like trash just because he didn't like him.

Edited by J.S. Crews

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There is a second message in the Joff scene that people seem to gloss over quite quickly. Joffrey asks several times "my uncle sent you?". I took that to mean he is trying to get back at Tyrion for publicly embarrasing him on several occasions. Not only is Joff cruel and sadistic (already established); he is also threatened by Tyrion.He handles this in his own vile way. Violent repression is Joff's strategy in the game. The scene was less gratuitous than other scenes IMO.

Good point....If that was their goal then I believe it could have been done in other ways. To be clear, I'm not against the sex or nudity. There was plenty of that in the books and Martin used it expertly in crafting the story. HBO's "adaptation" is just gratuitous, prolonged, and pointless. Like others have said, they are leaving out critical plot elements in favor of these kinds of scenes and it's causing the entire package to feel very shallow.

I wish they would have taken a more measured approach like LOST, Sopranos, or Breaking Bad for example. While you can criticize the outcome of a series like LOST, the pacing was incredibly effective. That same pacing was already in the first 2 or 3 GoT books so why not use it? I think Martin used sex and violence effectively to tell the story. So, it is difficult to understand how more of both is considered an improvement to the story while sacrificing critical plot developments to show them. I mean, I know it's about ratings and shock value, but doesn't it piss anyone else off that they are using these elements more than intended in order to boost viewership? I guess the response there for many is "Yes, if it means the series survives." And I would have to agree on that as well.

Yes, it's an adaptation of the books. Fully understood. Not everything will be exact or even possible to screenplay. But you gotta get kinda in the same ballpark you know? I mean you can adapt your way into a very shallow and hard to understand story if you aren't careful with the pacing, character development, and plot reveals. LOST did this masterfully by introducing characters as a whole, then shifting focus to individual or shared character plot lines. Then they weaved these relationships back into the overall story. Kinda like Martin did in his books.

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I don't think there's any requirement for the viewers to understand everything right away just because it's TV. They even have Gendry saying that he doesn't know what the Brotherhood is, to drive home the point that the characters doesn't understand it either (yet).

True. It's called foreshadowing. If you watched Lost you'll remember how we heard about the "others" for a full season before we saw them. There's about a billion other examples...

They're intentionally creating mystery to keep people coming back for answers.

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Your whole arguement though is defeated with one monologue from maester Aemon in season 1.

It was his duty to take the thone, and he declined it to become a maester.

If Stannis didn't want to be king, he had a brother who could accept the seat in his place. if Stannis didnt want to be king he had a choice and he chose to go to war over something he didnt even want.

Ned accepted King roberts offer to be hand because there was literally nobody else. Jon arryn was dead, Robert had no other true friends left.

Stannis had a choice, Ned did not.

It's prolly already been pointed out but your whole argument is nullified by the fact that Aemon is a brother of the nights watch. That duty pre-empts his duty to take the throne. That duty (to become king) was one of the many claims he must forsake when he became a member of the watch.

Ned technically had a choice. Aemon did not. Stannis does not. With Stannis, he just IS King. There is no claiming and no choice. It's just a fact.

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I have not sat down to read the books, but before I started watching the series last year I read ahead to see how interesting the story actually would be. If the story was too stupid or predictable or juvenile I would have skipped watching the series. I've since skimmed some of the books, especially chapters of pivotal events. I have not had any trouble keeping up with what's going on during the series, and I like to believe I see some of the depth they're adding into the characters.

The show continues to impress me with how well it's executed. This latest episode hasn't changed my opinion.

The only thing that made me wince on this episode was Littlefinger's "fate has given us this chance" line. That seemed very out of character to me, but I can also guess that after finally seeing Catelyn he was emotionally overwhelmed and simply lost his cool. It makes sense to me Catelyn would be his weakness. It also seems a simple matter that she can soon command Ned's remains passed along to Winterfell, even off-screen.

I appreciated the "whore" scene. I can't say I liked it, it was hard to watch. But every time you think you hate Joffrey enough, they find a way to make you hate him even more. And it worked, on me.

I think the Sansa scene lost some of its bite since they couldn't bare her topless. I imagine dresses showing more of her bosom than was barred in the hall.

The end of the episode puzzles me a bit. You really would think the death of Renly would make a great cliffhanger. How they're going to reconcile the reasoning behind the "shadow creature" being birthed inside Storm's End to get to Renly in his tent eludes me. But, I do have faith in the show's creators to tell a good story, so I'll reserve judgement until we see how it all plays out. Same for Robb's woman. Same for Arya and Tywin. To do otherwise isn't fair to the show.

As has been mentioned by others, the length of the episodes does distress me. When the credits rolled my clock showed 7 'till. Add to that the time taken by the (unnecessary) "here's what has happened unto now..." montage at the beginning. Without this show I probably wouldn't be subscribed to HBO, and I do want my money's worth.

You are doing yourself a great disservice.

Read the books

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I always thought Stannis knew. I mean come on, do you think Stannis thought he was telling Davos to take Mel sight seeing? Also, Davos comments on how Stannis looked ten years older, since last he saw him, after Stannis made the shadows with Mel. So I definitely think Stannis is smart enough to realize the "cost" of making such shadows, meaning he would notice the "side effects" after making the first shadow, and yet he agreed to make another. Everybody likes to make it sound like Melisandre tricked Stannis, and that Stannis did not know the price for creating the shadows. I personally think that's rubbish, Stannis knew the cost, and he paid it willingly, and he would do it again. Stannis will do anything to fulfill his duty, to win the Crown. So Stannis would easily be willing to give up ten years of his life, to gain a large part of Renly's army, and Storms End. So Stannis was most definitely willing to make the shadows, and Melisandre did not deceive him.

Edit.

That's actually what I like and respect most about Stannis, he is willing to do what it takes, to fulfill his duty to his people. Stannis will pay the price, even when it's harmful to his own person, he doesn't just make someone else pay the cost.

Ok, so he knew. Not the specifics perhaps but in general.

Because a friend asked me while we were watching the show and I was not sure what to answer. Now that I think back, he must have known, because he feels some sort of guilt regarding Renly.

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I don't think Stannis knew about Renly's death. There is nothing (I can remember) to indicate he did. He may still think Brienne/Catelyn did it. He certainly knew Melisandre assassinated Penrose, likely not how, but considering he knows he's had sex with her (and likely that it takes a lot out of him), he can probably figure out that has something to do with it.

In the show, he clearly knows she is going to assassinate Renly. This is a change for his character, but only a shift towards something he already was. He is a hypocrite. He was not acting the part of a king, while insisting he is one. He recognizes this and corrects his course at the end of SoS. We (the book readers) are attributing this dramatic change of heart to a man who is still a year? away from that change. That (and Jaime's face turn) are the two brilliant points which make SoS the best book of the series.

More importantly, this "Show us, don't tell us" style of Martin is what makes his work so great. (Which is odd because MAJOR events are told off camera, but major character changes are shown). A Game of Thrones (mainly the killing of Ned) is something that normally would have happened in the prologue chapter in fantasy books, and then the hero is hero for the whole book, being all emo about his dead heroic father. Martin did not give us that, he told the story of the heroic father before giving us the hero of the books. In the same way, we get to see Jaime and Stannis at their low points, which makes their face turns so much more dramatic.

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Right, my thoughts. I've not read anyone else's views yet, will do later once I've put my views forth!

- Opening scene - Fart joke...alright it was funny, I liked that little scene as we just got to have 2 regular soldiers talking together. Followed by a Direwolf ruining the party.

- Aftermath scene - Liked Roose. Didn't really care for the interaction with Robb and the nurse woman who I presume is actually Jeyne. I guess it'll do as a way of explaining his romance though.

- Throne Room - Nearly perfect. Joffrey being a little toad, Lancel trying to be baddass(and wearing Jaime's clothes), the humiliation of Sansa, followed by Tyrion and Bronn saving the day. Awesomeness.

Joff and the whores - I don't think this was needed. At least not in such detail. Could have shown Joff opening the door, seeing the whores, closing the door, then we see the whores go back to Tyrion or the brothel later, covered in bruises and cuts.

Renly's camp - Liked how all 3 of the characters that dealt with Littlefinger did so, but I really don't like Aidan Gillen this series, he was great last time round, but he's really not impressed me at all this series.

Harrenhall - Didn't look big enough, though was suitable ruined. Liked Polliver, loved Tywins entrance and subsequent dialogue with Arya. The mountain was disappointing not because he's not Conan, but because he didn't have his old armour. He's certainly tall enough, just pad out the armour and let him wear it. Voice is perfect. And Hot Pie is one BAMF. Arya's prayer was also well delivered. Though that Tywin is at Harrenhall annoys me a little as I think he'd probably recognise Gendry, or rather the similiarities to Robert/Renly...he did deliver Kings Landing to Robert after all and married his daughter to him...

Stannis vs Renly - Loved the face off. Though I wanted Stannis to come across as less confident there, in keeping with his lack of an impressive nature. Was still excellent.

Q(w)arth - Liked it all apart from the Kwarth bit...that was silly. Liked XXD though, happy with his portrayal thus far. The 13 look cool/freaky.

Tyrion vs Lancel - Loved how all of Lancel's bluster is shot down so easily by Tyrion, again he's the best character in the show.

Stannis and DAvos - Liked how the Non Book readers have got the background on their history together. Was a good little dialogue

Davos and Mel - I found the shadow baby scene a bit weird even knowing what was happening beforehand having read the books. However I suppose it's meant to, and they did it well. Davos was crapping himself!

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The romantic encounter with the nurse - it's such a shame that just can not be described

in words. Book is not a movie, and we have already got accustomed to all sorts of changes, but how can be justified

the thing which is directly contrary to the spirit of the book and

the principles of Martin? I'm talking about trustworthiness of what is happening. How did the nurse find

herself on the site of the just passed battle? The only women who could be out there are

army whores, or washerwomen. If begin talking about the noble lady, they did not have a lot

of freedom in medievel times and just would not deal with the help of the wounded,

unless she is pious. In this case, she should be a silent sister.

Futhermore it is impossible to imagine such a girl hang about

on a field of fresh battle (where marauders "work", the soldiers of loosing side, which hadn't time to run away, sit in the bushes).

Why the king helps no one knows who, having interrupted for the sake of this

the conversation with one of his top commanders? How is it possible that some unknown maid adress

the king directly and discuss his military policy? After this "rotten apple", I found it hard to take seriously

the following events.

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Hm, the Series "Dexter" is almost completly different from the Books und everyone seems to like it

Why not here?

And Game of thrones has still more of the Spirit from the Books, than a lot of other TV-Adaptations.

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Hm, the Series "Dexter" is almost completly different from the Books und everyone seems to like it

Why not here?

And Game of thrones has still more of the Spirit from the Books, than a lot of other TV-Adaptations.

Other books are not as good as aSoIaF, so it's ok if the show changes things, but with the aSoIaF books nothing is better, so if the show changes to many things, it will not be as good as the books. GRRM has created an amazing story, and to change any of that, it will not be as good.

Also when GRRM agreed to let them make the show, it was his wish for them to stick to the books as close as possible, and they made it seem like they would stick to the books as best as they could, so they should stick to their original plan. GRRM is a big believer in sticking to the original story, as best as possible, when your making an adaptation. That's how I feel to, if you can't stick to the original story when ever possible, then make your own story, don't half ass copy someone else's. If your going to do an adaptation, then you should respect the writer, and stick to the original story, or don't do it, and that's how GRRM feels about it also.

And I am not talking about changes for bugetory reasons, or time reasons, of course those kinds of changes are fine. With the books, we get a lot of information from the thoughts of the POV characters, so obviously in the show you can't see their thoughts, do those changes are fine. It's making drastic changes to characters, and story lines, that is not fine.

A lot of people feel like a show should be much different than a book, they feel like they should be seperate entities all together. I don't really agree with that, and neither does GRRM(he has said as much in interviews). If the writer of the original story is fine with the adaptation being completely different, then I guess that's ok, but if they want them to be the same, then it should be the same, and that's the case with GRRM.

When GRRM agreed to let them do the show, D&D expressed that they are big fans of the books, and they made it seem like they would respect GRRM's wishes, and I feel like they did for season one, but now in season two, it's like they are changing so much stuff, regardless of GRRM's wishes when he first agreed to let them do the show.

Unfortunately GRRM ultimately has no control over the show, if they want to change something, he can't stop them. It just makes me wonder if GRRM might have been to trusting, when he agreed to not have control over the show. I don't know if he thought they would stick to the original story because D&D are such big fans, or what.

I just don't agree with all the changes for no reason, and it makes me very worried about the future story.

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Hm, the Series "Dexter" is almost completly different from the Books und everyone seems to like it

Why not here?

And Game of thrones has still more of the Spirit from the Books, than a lot of other TV-Adaptations.

As someone who has read the Dexter books, the nice way to put it is that they were nowhere near the level of ASoIaF. The show Dexter does a great job of taking that author's original idea and expanding on it (in my opinion) in a much better way than the books ever did. For ASoIaF, the books are a work of art all by themselves.

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As someone who has read the Dexter books, the nice way to put it is that they were nowhere near the level of ASoIaF. The show Dexter does a great job of taking that author's original idea and expanding on it (in my opinion) in a much better way than the books ever did. For ASoIaF, the books are a work of art all by themselves.

Exactly, you can't mess with profection, and that's exactly what aSoIaF is. There is no making it better.

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