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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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Unfortunately GRRM ultimately has no control over the show, if they want to change something, he can't stop them. It just makes me wonder if GRRM might have been to trusting, when he agreed to not have control over the show. I don't know if he thought they would stick to the original story because D&D are such big fans, or what.

I just don't agree with all the changes for no reason, and it makes me very worried about the future story.

Well... George did last year.

But it's curious, he is still listed, and I am sure still has a hand in casting, wrote episode 9, but has had little comment on his active involvement in Season 2.

Too many book tours and other stuff?

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Unfortunately GRRM ultimately has no control over the show, if they want to change something, he can't stop them. It just makes me wonder if GRRM might have been to trusting, when he agreed to not have control over the show. I don't know if he thought they would stick to the original story because D&D are such big fans, or what.

Martin has said in interviews that the show belongs to the producers and HBO; its their baby (and just for clarification, its my [limited] understanding that the Producers have ultimate control over any show and the Executive Producer is a largely ceremonial title). In an interview he said that if they wanted to make aliens come down and fight the Others that was their chocie.

I ultimately do not think Martin was "too trusting." Martin worked in TV for a number of years (though granted that was 20+ years ago and the industry has changed dramatically, or so I am told); and I am sure he knew what he was doing when he gave up creative control over the show (in exchange for a title, power to write at least one episode a season and, oh yeah, a honking amount of money that he deserves). Television shows cannopt be beholden to somebody outside that show's control and HBO was not about to give Martin a ton of money and say "Now make the show you want." They needed TV people who knew that, for better or worse, some corners needed to be cut, some story lines shortened and yeah, some "creative liscense" is taken. That's part of TV.

I just think its okay to leave TV to the TV people. Then again, TV people came up with "Work It," "Joannie Loves Chachi," and "Cop Rock" so WTF do I know?

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That Daenerys scene was the worst. The dialogue was awkward, it wasn't in the books, and the dragons were hidden in some baskets...

The dragons were clearly not in the scene for budget reasons. I could picture the dialogue like this:

Man with no name: May I see the dragons?

Daenerys: Certainly. Jorah, let out the dragons from their tiny basket cage for-

(HBO exec whispers something in Dany's ears)

Daenerys: No. I'm the mother of dragons and I demand to be let in!

Hilarious!

I was reading one of the re-caps after the first appearance of the dragons/dragon baskets and the author said something along the lines of "put the dragons back in their Pottery Barn dragon carriers" and I about died laughing. But I also read/heard somewhere in an interview with D or D that besides the cost/effort behind CGI they didn't want the dragons to become a fixture in every episode so that we got sick of them/distracted by them. I do kind of like that on the rare occasions they appear that it's a big deal and I anticipate them. That said, I wasn't a fan of this scene and I'm really wondering about the non-presence of Quaithe. Obviously they can get that prophecy from another means but i liked the introduction to her and Pyatt Pree a little earlier in the book

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As someone who has read the Dexter books, the nice way to put it is that they were nowhere near the level of ASoIaF. The show Dexter does a great job of taking that author's original idea and expanding on it (in my opinion) in a much better way than the books ever did. For ASoIaF, the books are a work of art all by themselves.

It was just a Example, I know the "Fire-and-Ice" Books are on a other Level, than dexter. Another one is "Legend of the Seeker", but the Series was chanceld after 2 Seasons, sadly. Or the Lord of the Ring Movies. There are many Changes from the Books, too.

I think the Adaptation of Game of Thrones is still pretty good, and so long the big story lines are intact, it is fine.

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It was just a Example, I know the "Fire-and-Ice" Books are on a other Level, than dexter. Another one is "Legend of the Seeker", but the Series was chanceld after 2 Seasons, sadly. Or the Lord of the Ring Movies. There are many Changes from the Books, too.

I think the Adaptation of Game of Thrones is still pretty good, and so long the big story lines are intact, it is fine.

It is pretty good - many/most of the complaints I have voiced and seen aren't just "oh, damn - the book didn't say that exactly!". They are about change for change sake - take LOTR for example. I missed not being able to see Tom Bombadil look through the ring (it would have been amazing to have Robin Williams do that part just for that one reason, but I digress) but did that ruin the movie? No - they had to make some changes, remove some scenes for time, budget, etc. Completely fine. But then why add in the scene where Frodo and the Nazgul go face to face on the walls of Osgiliath? That scene didn't add anything to the movies. The changes to Faramir...why? We all ready know the Ring can tempt anyone.

That is the nature of my complaints/feedback - changes are fine and required. But when a scene or character is removed and another is added that does not seem to add anything to the story, that is where I have issue. Again - the Joffrey/whore scene. What did the scene add that we didn't all ready know about him? If that scene had not been included, would we have missed out on any character development for Joffrey? Would, when QoT (if she exists in this universe) asks Sansa about Joffrey, anyone be surprised at her response and QoTs reaction? I don't think we would have - what we saw reinforces what we know about him, but isn't anything new and wasn't needed to tell the story..

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The show and the books are separate entities, the show is not a bunch pretty pictures made to accompany the books. They don't change the books, but they will likely begin to diverge more and more. There are plenty of fair reasons to complain about the show, but it serves little purpose to get annoyed just because they are different.

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My first post, so hi everyone.

This is my favourite episode, liked every bit of it, from opening credits(ruined Harenhall and Qarth) to music during ending credits. The visuals of the show are great as always, and shadow baby was epic.

I liked new characters, even though they are slightly different from the books and I really dont get nitpicks such as Roose dont having pink cloak(probably it would look silly). So far I liked all the changes, expect cutting Reeds and Ramsay.

I think Joffrey+whores is great to set up the relationship between him and Tyrion. I like creepy Harrenhall better then very large castle it is described in the books. Qarth scene is also very good, I like spice merchant and XXD. Still dont have Idea what they will do with Talisa(Jeyne), I hope they surprise me.

Acting is also great in general, but my favourites so far are Michelle Fairlay as Cat, Peter Dinklage as Tyrion, Conleth Hill as Varys and Stark Kids.

Btw there will be shadow baby in the tent in ep 5, Michelle Fairlay said in Thronecast that they filmed scene with something in the tent, and she didnt knew what it is and how it looks because they will add it later with CGI.

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The show and the books are separate entities, the show is not a bunch pretty pictures made to accompany the books. They don't change the books, but they will likely begin to diverge more and more. There are plenty of fair reasons to complain about the show, but it serves little purpose to get annoyed just because they are different.

Personally I don't complain just because they are "different" but rather I weigh each change on it's own merits. Why was the change made? Was it too expensive to film due to CGI, casting, or other factors? Was the idea that is being shared originally information given thru internal monologue that has to be explained in a different manner? Was there just not enough screen time to fit it all? These are all reasonable explanations for changes.

What I don't like is seemingly random changes like Joffrey ordering the killing of Robert's bastards instead of Cersei. Or Littlefinger blurting that he knows secrets about everyone to their face when others have died due to their knowledge of those secrets. Or adding long original scenes, that don't clearly contribute to replacing something from the books, when the book scenes are being condensed as small as humanly possible. It's not the idea that they will change things, which I tottally accept and expect, but rather changes that would take exactly the same amount of time and budget to keep true to the books. It's when I get the impression that the writers are trying to "improve" on the books with their own scenes that the show tends to veer off course for me.

Edited by Tadco26

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You (as we all are) are free to view the show any way you wish to (of course). However, I think people would enjoy things more if they viewed the show as the show, and determine things based on that only. Change means nothing, what matters is the quality of what you're seeing. It is completely independent of the books, which are written, done and read (for most of us).

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Joffrey's scene with the whores was truly unwarranted. It could have been a closed door event as reported to Tyrion by the injured whores.

But the truth is, SEX SELLS! I know some people who don't have the patience to read the books and watch the show because it shows a lot of skin! Every time, they ask me if there was a sex scene in the new episode.

We all, book lovers or otherwise, have to live with that.

The nurse scene on the other hand, also engages the audience with romance. True, its misplaced, with her arguing with the king about the futility of war. But Jeyne-Robb story has true potential of a romance. If GRRM did not give us that, HBO will.

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You (as we all are) are free to view the show any way you wish to (of course). However, I think people would enjoy things more if they viewed the show as the show, and determine things based on that only. Change means nothing, what matters is the quality of what you're seeing. It is completely independent of the books, which are written, done and read (for most of us).

Agreed, and if I may add, we don't know what story the show is going to tell. Changes that may seem pointless now (because we judge it according to future events/developments in the books) might possibly make more sense when this season is over.

I'll take the Joff scene as example. What if it actually sets up a conflict between Tyrion and Joff? Joffrey is very much motivated to get back at Tyrion by torturing the whores Tyrion sent. This could have a major impact on their relationship in future events. Then, it becomes much more than showing "something we already know about Joffrey". It sets up a story of retaliation etc.etc.

Again, this might not be in the books, but it explains the joff/ros scene within a larger story that is yet to be told.

My advice? Suspend judgment.

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In the books, Tyrion seriously considers procuring whores for Joffrey, but is uncertain if Joff is old enough.

Show Joffrey is several years older. That D&D treat 16-17 year old Joff diffferent from Martin's 13-14 year old version is not only appropriate but essential in light of the age change (which was absolutely essential in light of US attitudes toward child characters in sexual situations). If Tyrion almost sent them to 14 year old Joff, he surely would to 17 year old. D&D are right and you are wrong.

Do you really think 16 year old Joffrey should have the same attitudes as GRRM's 13 year old version? Or Margaery Tyrell???

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In the books, Tyrion seriously considers procuring whores for Joffrey, but is uncertain if Joff is old enough.

Show Joffrey is several years older. That D&D treat 16-17 year old Joff diffferent from Martin's 13-14 year old version is not only appropriate but essential in light of the age change (which was absolutely essential in light of US attitudes toward child characters in sexual situations). If Tyrion almost sent them to 14 year old Joff, he surely would to 17 year old. D&D are right and you are wrong.

Do you really think 16 year old Joffrey should have the same attitudes as GRRM's 13 year old version? Or Margaery Tyrell???

Exactly.

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I liked the episode.

What was most disturbing for me was Roose Bolton, the terrifying, sinister, violent, treacherous lord of the dreadfort being played by Michael McElhatton who I best know for his role of 'Rats' in the series "Paths to Freedom." A worse fit, I cannot imagine.

(I don't mean he's not perfect for the part, just that it's hard to make the leap from that character to Roose Bolton)

For those who have never seen "Paths to Freedom", see here You might need to skip to about 8:00 to see the full context.

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Not sure I remember right but when Joffrey has Sansa beat up (in the novel) it does not end with Ser Meryn pulling his sword on her, I mean what next! He was going to cut her into! I thought in the novel it was a whip?

I noticed a quick reaction shot of the Hound showing his displeasure, it's quick.

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That is the nature of my complaints/feedback - changes are fine and required. But when a scene or character is removed and another is added that does not seem to add anything to the story, that is where I have issue. Again - the Joffrey/whore scene. What did the scene add that we didn't all ready know about him? If that scene had not been included, would we have missed out on any character development for Joffrey? Would, when QoT (if she exists in this universe) asks Sansa about Joffrey, anyone be surprised at her response and QoTs reaction? I don't think we would have - what we saw reinforces what we know about him, but isn't anything new and wasn't needed to tell the story..

I found Joffrey's scene with the whores to be very clever. We had just witnessed Sansa being saved from Joffrey by Tyrion ... but then Tyrion gave the whores to Joffrey and was not able to save them. This quite clearly shows that Sansa is still in danger - and not even Tyrion will be able to save her from Joffrey's bedroom.

It reminds me of the scene between Theon, Ramsay and Jeyne in ADWD, which added less to the book than this scene added to show.

Edited by PatrickStormborn

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Why didn't Catlyn kil LF (or have him killed) given that she knows he was complicit in Ned's betrayal and murder? His only defense to her allegation in the knife scene seemed to be something like "I had to do it; it was him or me." For a person who supposedly is a first-class hater, Catlyn is certainly a wimp.

Count me as one of the peeps who doesn't like HBO Cate one bit.

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Agreed, and if I may add, we don't know what story the show is going to tell. Changes that may seem pointless now (because we judge it according to future events/developments in the books) might possibly make more sense when this season is over.

I'll take the Joff scene as example. What if it actually sets up a conflict between Tyrion and Joff?

Conflict was all ready set up between them. Tyrion slapping Joffrey repeatedly in S1 about going to see Bran and offer his respects, Tyrion interrupting Joffreys nameday celebration, Tyrion interrupting Sansa being beaten, threatening one of his kingsguard and then removing his betrothed from the danger in front of the court. We have been given enough that if the whore scene did not exist and Joffrey did something against Tyrion there wouldn't be reason to question why it happened.

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I found Joffrey's scene with the whores to be very clever. We had just witnessed Sansa being saved from Joffrey by Tyrion ... but then Tyrion gave the whores to Joffrey and was not able to save them. This quite clearly shows that Sansa is still in danger - and not even Tyrion will be able to save her from Joffrey's bedroom.

It reminds me of the scene between Theon, Ramsay and Jeyne in ADWD, which added less to the book than this scene added to show.

Except a paragraph in a 600+ pages book is not exactly the same thing as a 5 min scene in a 45 min episode...

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Not sure I remember right but when Joffrey has Sansa beat up (in the novel) it does not end with Ser Meryn pulling his sword on her, I mean what next! He was going to cut her into! I thought in the novel it was a whip?

I noticed a quick reaction shot of the Hound showing his displeasure, it's quick.

It was in the book. He beat the back of her thighs bloody with the flat of the blade.

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