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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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You want to stick to the book and this is your favorite episode so far? That is some serious cognitive dissonance.

Serious cognitive dissonance? Why do you have to verbally nasty?

I felt that there were more scenes in this episode that actually stuck to the story, sometimes scenes taken verbatim (ex. Lancel and Tyrion's little midnight talk). I thought that the idea of Qarth being a closed city was kind of strange, and in the book I believe at least Jorah knew about Qarth, but it is a merchant city. They were eager to see her dragons. I'm not sure why they created conflict like that. Also, it's going to be more than passing strange if we see just that one shot of Drogon on Dany's shoulder for the rest of the season. Aside from that, things were much more true to the book than previous episodes, also a lot less adding in scenes which weren't in the books (I think the only one here was LF being in Renly's camp).

Last week, the different plots really felt like they connected better, thematically. I thought it was rather disjointed this week, and some of the scenes that were added... ugh. Is the surgeon we met tonight really going to be what takes the place of Jeyne Westerling? That's gonna be a hot mess

How do you think they were 'connected better thematically'? It seems to me that one moment we're in KL, the next we're with the NW, the next we're with Dany, then Arya..with not much segue, if any, in between. I've noticed the episodes being like this pretty much from the start, although I've only watched each of them twice, so I could be wrong. But that was the distinct impression I got.

Also, I couldn't hear what name the surgeon girl offered up. I have no clue why they would want to make her be from Volantis, when it makes much more sense (esp. for Robb's fate) for her to be a Westerling of the Crag. It was obvious Robb was interested in her, and/or respected her, but I couldn't recognize her as the actress playing Jeyne.. Maybe she was just lying about Volantis so he wouldn't know she's a Lannister bannerwoman, or whatever.

OTOH, I thought Joffrey with the whores was a disturbingly well done scene. A friend felt it was unnecessary because Joffrey's nature has already been shown, but I think it's one thing to suspect how much of a creep he is based on his boisterous actions in front of a crowd... it's another thing to see that he's 16 and he'd rather get one whore to beat up another than get a BJ. I mean, damn.

I thought that was an important scene as well. I think that whore was using a mace, as well. It's clear to the audience now that he is a sadistic mutilator of women, and that his pent-up frustration with not being able to hurt Sansa was unfortunately taken out on these unsuspecting prostitutes. I wonder what the fallout with Tyrion will be when he finds out.

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anika- No problem!

Yeah Harrenhall wasn't how I pictured it actually. This one is far more crumbled and decrepit looking that what I pictured.

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I also called it Qarth for the longest time. I don't feel as bad, now that the Mother of Dragons declared it so.

Me too. ;/

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I love that they keep changing the opening credits seeing Harrenhal this week was awesome.

Things I loved:

All of the Arya scenes. Harrenhal looks fricken amazing...like I can't believe how good and creepy it looked.

Charles Dance - Some of the best casting there IMO. He is incredible as Tywin and that whole scene was fabulous.

Shadow baby was fricken creepy.

Tyrion/Lancel scene - So funny.

Bronn

Sansa

Stannis on the ship with Davos. I loved the line about how a good act doesn't wash away the bad while a bad act doesn't wash away the good. I think I'm going to love Dillane.

Maragarey and LF scene. I liked Margarey much more this week.

Greywind!

No Cersei.

Things that were meh:

Dany...even though Qarth looked great I just dont like the her or the storyline.

I missed seeing Bran or the Night's Watch but it's understandable.

Things I hated:

Joffery/Whore scene. I agree it was redundant and not needed and it was way to long. They could have spent time elsewhere. This is my problem with the series...they spend too much time on made up scenes that are usually redundant (sometimes they strike gold I.E Jaime/Tywin in season 1) or completely pointless.

The budget...would have been cool to see a fight in the beginning.

Edited by Jack's Smirking Revenge

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darksister- Joff/whores scene was not in the books. Tywin chatting it up with Arya and the others was not in the books, nor was the Gendry torture scene. Robb talking to some chick on the battlefield was not either. Roose Bolton also would not have spoken to Robb in ACOK IIRC, since their forces were separated the entire time.

There might be something else I'm missing, but I can't remember the entire ep.

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I just want clarification on 2 things please, since I have read the books many times but things run together, and the order things happen are murky in my mind.

1. Littlefinger never went to Renly's camp right? I think I remember Tyrion sending him from Kings Landing directly to Lysa, is that correct?

2. Arya was never Tywin's cupbearer, just Roose's, correct?

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This is my problem with the series...they spend too much time on made up scenes that are usually redundant (sometimes they strike gold I.E Jaime/Tywin in season 1) or completely pointless.

The budget...would have been cool to see a fight in the beginning.

So much this.

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What no talk about Xaro? I thought he looked a lot different than his character from the books, but this would be a change that I would not mind seeing.

The confrontation in front of Qarth seemed forced and kind of awkward.

Wish Catelyn would have just stabbed LF though. That would have been sweet. It seems like I have heard a lot of revisionist complaining about how hated Catelyn is by readers, as in, some people apparently like her in the books. I continue to say the HBO series makes her way more likeable than the books. And now they just gave her more of an out for her biggest, boner from the books releasing Jaimie.

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Ok, so I get that there's a hell of a lot of backstory to get through here, but "I've loved you since I was a little boy"? Seriously? Littlefinger is CUNNING. That's his single defining characteristic. Sure, he's lovelorn, but that's a secondary trait to how god damn clever he is. He's supposed to be the Cheshire Cat of Westeros. Clever, creepy, snarky, but undeniably lovable. But, the writers keep giving him the most obtuse lines. "I've loved you since I was a little boy"?! Gag much?

A clever man does not confess to a grieving widow who definitely already knows that he loves her. A clever man makes himself indespensible to her, perhaps by saving her children. Or, a cleverer, less sweet man, marries her sister while manipulating her very similar, but younger and hotter daughter into his grasp.

For a story that relies so heavily on identifying where characters have merit along with human or even monsterous flaws, the show writers are really failing Petyr. They seem to think that his love for Cat is sympathetic? I never felt that. I always saw that aspect of him as a pathetic carryover from childhood that he resented. The best part of him was that he's a small lord of no significant birth or fortune, and yet had managed to gain hold of Harrenhal and the Eyrie, and perhaps soon the rest of the Vale (And then, of course, the world. Bwahahaha.) Name ONE other character who is that successful in that time frame. Seriously, I think Bolton's Bastard might be the only real comparision in upward-movement. Also when he pushed Lysa out the door. Who didn't love him dearly then?

I mean, I see what they're doing. They're setting him up as sympathetic so that when he steals away Sansa and does various other deeds, it can be seen as done by a man suffering from chronic heartbreak. I just though LF was made of sterner, more guiling stuff.

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I liked the Joffrey/whores scene. It established that t.v. Joffrey is more of a sadist than book Joffrey. As someone else said, he's a teen boy given two beautiful women to do with what he wishes, and he chose to torture them. I thought that it was a statement scene for his character. Not a bad addition IMO.

I'm 99.99% sure that the "Volantis" girl is Jeyne Westerling.

To me, this was the second best episode of the season behind episode 3, and I get the feeling that things are really going to start picking up next week.

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I just want clarification on 2 things please, since I have read the books many times but things run together, and the order things happen are murky in my mind.

1. Littlefinger never went to Renly's camp right? I think I remember Tyrion sending him from Kings Landing directly to Lysa, is that correct?

Correct. Littlefinger was only sent out to the Tyrell camp later on to broker a marriage between Margaery and Joffrey. The part you are remembering with Tyrion sending Littlefinger to Lysa in the Vale was when he was trying to determine who in the small council was a spy for Cersei. Littlefinger never actually went to the Vale though, since he found out what happened with Pycelle and that Tyrion just played him.

2. Arya was never Tywin's cupbearer, just Roose's, correct?

Correct. When Arya first got to Harrenhall she would see Tywin around, but they never exchanged words. For time and condensing Arya's story, I'm sure is the reason for the change. Should be interesting though

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Ok, so I get that there's a hell of a lot of backstory to get through here, but "I've loved you since I was a little boy"? Seriously? Littlefinger is CUNNING. That's his single defining characteristic. Sure, he's lovelorn, but that's a secondary trait to how god damn clever he is. He's supposed to be the Cheshire Cat of Westeros. Clever, creepy, snarky, but undeniably lovable. But, the writers keep giving him the most obtuse lines. "I've loved you since I was a little boy"?! Gag much?

A clever man does not confess to a grieving widow who definitely already knows that he loves her. A clever man makes himself indespensible to her, perhaps by saving her children. Or, a cleverer, less sweet man, marries her sister while manipulating her very similar, but younger and hotter daughter into his grasp.

For a story that relies so heavily on identifying where characters have merit along with human or even monsterous flaws, the show writers are really failing Petyr. They seem to think that his love for Cat is sympathetic? I never felt that. I always saw that aspect of him as a pathetic carryover from childhood that he resented. The best part of him was that he's a small lord of no significant birth or fortune, and yet had managed to gain hold of Harrenhal and the Eyrie, and perhaps soon the rest of the Vale (And then, of course, the world. Bwahahaha.) Name ONE other character who is that successful in that time frame. Seriously, I think Bolton's Bastard might be the only real comparision in upward-movement. Also when he pushed Lysa out the door. Who didn't love him dearly then?

I mean, I see what they're doing. They're setting him up as sympathetic so that when he steals away Sansa and does various other deeds, it can be seen as done by a man suffering from chronic heartbreak. I just though LF was made of sterner, more guiling stuff.

I agree. That line was the worst thing about this episode for me. Book LF would never have said it. TV LF isn't as cunning as book LF. In the book, LF is a brilliant operator and financier, personally keeping the kingdom afloat finacially. This doesn't come accross on TV, where the character is much more hamhanded. That said, he's perfectly cast/

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Really enjoyed the episode!

I knew things were off to a good addition when the map was updated. I liked how Harrenhal dididn't move, it is a dying castle. Then we see the map shift dramatically to Qarth. I was very, very impressed with the CGI on both cities. Along with the long shot of the Red Waste, you can definitely tell that some of the budget increase when to the FX backgrounds. Very well-done.

"White Knight" Tywin was unexpected. I agree he's not type of man to mix it up with smallfolk but as ruthless as he is, he is also pragmatic. Why kill prisoners who have little information when you can put them to work. Tywin and Arya should be a fascinating dynamic. I have to admit having some concern about it. If Arya is dealing with Tywin, how can she possibly forget to include him on her death list? But I think the angle they're working here is Tywin being a different man that she expected but when she learns that he's going to march on Robb's army, she realizes she should have included him on her list. Terrific work by Maise Williams as Arya descends into a hellish position. Charles Dance is always a welcome presence. He's definitely majestic.

I was sorry the Mountain had to be recast. I think the original actor got another role elsewhere. It's a shame...the original Mountain wasn't in Season 1 much but damn, did that guy ever look intimidating. You can definitely see why people would wet themselves in fear when looking at him.

The Joffrey/whores scene was disturbing but Jack Gleason did knock it out of the ballpark. Tyrion's idea wasn't bad (he does ponder it briefly in the book) but even he underestimated how depraved his nephew is. I agree it didn't have to be there and it dragged on far too long.

Considering how unsubtle this show is (the aforementioned Joffrey whore scene, some of LF's monologues, etc.), I was surprised that they resisted showing Ned's remains. It was for the best as Michelle Fairley sold the hell out of that scene. Getting her and Littlefinger together again was a good idea. It's always been a mystery to me just how known Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned was. No one, not Cat nor anyone from the North seems to know about it, save for the court of King's Landing. Well-done scene and for those concerned, it is still Tyrion's idea and not Littlefinger.

The Stannis/Renly parlay was good although the book scene was far superior. I'm glad they kept Renly's flippant attitude and I bought his "To think, I once loved the man" line. I liked Stannis's scene with Davos better and it felt the most like Stannis so far on the show. It does look like Davos just has one son on the show. The shadowbaby scene was as "WTF?" as it was in the book. Good job.

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I liked the Joffrey/whores scene. It established that t.v. Joffrey is more of a sadist than book Joffrey. As someone else said, he's a teen boy given two beautiful women to do with what he wishes, and he chose to torture them. I thought that it was a statement scene for his character. Not a bad addition IMO.

I'm not so sure that he's that much more sadistic in the show. He's fucked up in the book, he enjoyed shooting people with his crossbow. They should have just had the Sansa scene like it was in the book...much more brutal. Would have saved some time.

Also I was a bit disappointed in The Tickler. Just the fact that he wasn't as creepy as I imagined. Still the Harrenhal scenes were the highlight IMO.

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You want to stick to the book and this is your favorite episode so far? That is some serious cognitive dissonance.

Last week, the different plots really felt like they connected better, thematically. I thought it was rather disjointed this week, and some of the scenes that were added... ugh. Is the surgeon we met tonight really going to be what takes the place of Jeyne Westerling? That's gonna be a hot mess.

OTOH, I thought Joffrey with the whores was a disturbingly well done scene. A friend felt it was unnecessary because Joffrey's nature has already been shown, but I think it's one thing to suspect how much of a creep he is based on his boisterous actions in front of a crowd... it's another thing to see that he's 16 and he'd rather get one whore to beat up another than get a BJ. I mean, damn.

You want to stick to the book and this is your favorite episode so far? That is some serious cognitive dissonance.

Last week, the different plots really felt like they connected better, thematically. I thought it was rather disjointed this week, and some of the scenes that were added... ugh. Is the surgeon we met tonight really going to be what takes the place of Jeyne Westerling? That's gonna be a hot mess.

OTOH, I thought Joffrey with the whores was a disturbingly well done scene. A friend felt it was unnecessary because Joffrey's nature has already been shown, but I think it's one thing to suspect how much of a creep he is based on his boisterous actions in front of a crowd... it's another thing to see that he's 16 and he'd rather get one whore to beat up another than get a BJ. I mean, damn.

Exactly! That scene showed perfectly Joffreys true character. Only a twisted, demented, sadistic psychopath would bypass sex for torture. It makes me believe that he did sexually abuse Tommen, being that he wasn't interested in the women alone in his bed chambers. Edited by Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl

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I was terrified for a moment that he was going to make her do something much, much worse with that mace or whatever it was. :eek: :bawl:

ME TOO! I was strangely relived to see it just be used for beating. I think that would be too far...even for HBO.

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We have to get some Baric and Thoros before this season is over. They just can't spring them on us when they drag uncat out of the river. Can they?

I don't see how they could cut them out.

(null)

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I'm not so sure that he's that much more sadistic in the show. He's fucked up in the book, he enjoyed shooting people with his crossbow.

The book never implied that Joff was sexually aroused by torture. This scene did, IMO. Book Joff was sadistic, but TV Joff is off the charts.

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