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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion

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Just wanted to say again how awesome the shadow baby scene was

I mean, I love the books as well as the next person on this board, but the produces must have had sleepless nights trying to figure out how they were going to pull that scene off without making it look like a really bad, B rated straight to DVD movie release.

Try explaining that scene to a non-fan and make them think it could look even half good. But HBO once again NAILED it.

:handclap:

Agreed.

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Ros serves no purpose but hamfisted redundancy and, no, I will not get over it.

I enjoyed the episode. Almost as good as the last one. I still need to watch it a few times to let it all sink in.

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@vanille

Ok, "acceptance" will be my mantra for the week.

Loved your post. Thanks for being a calm voice of reason

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@J.S. Crews

Did you not read my statement acknowledging that I was wrong? It's ok. I'll say it again. I was wrong about Stannis' offering to make Renly his heir. It's clearly in the books. In fact, i'mnlooking at the page now.....

Ravenhair: the thread moves too quickly, so, no, at the time I responded, I hadn't seen your reply. My apologies. Invariably, whole pages appear as I'm typing sometimes.

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The only thing I didn't like about this episode was that it did not end where I expected it to. I thought for sure we would end this one with

Renly's death in the tent

and that would set up the cliffhanger for next week. It would have been epic. I don't know why they would push that to the beginning of next week's episode.

More likely it will be closer to the end of next week's episode, I think it will give them more time to work the scene from Cat or Brienne's perspective.

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My apologies Ravenhair, but frankly, this list of complaints is just absurd.

1. Tyrion thought about getting Joffrey a whore, but never acted upon it. The scene with Joffrey and the whores was unnecessary. We know he's awful, and right now, he's more awful than Cersei And Theon combined.

2. I liked the setting up of the Tyrion/Sansa/Sandor thing, though when Sandor gave her his cloak, I just screamed, "Not now, damn it, not now!".

3. Arya as Tywin's cupbearer. What in the hell are the writers/directors/producers doing?

4. Harrenhal looked exactly as I imagined it. husband said the same thing.

5. Really liked Tyrion's exchange with Lancel. Peter Dinklage is great as always, and Eugene Simon did an outstanding job as Lancel.

6. The torture scenes at Harrenhal--good, but I wanted to hear the words of the interrogation, all of them? Did they really need to edit the whole "is there gold in the village?" questioning.

7. Davos is rowing Melisandre over to give birth to a shadow baby to kill Renly? Why, why, why? He despised doing it to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose, and it made us love him for hating Melisandre and for hating doing this duty for Stannis. Davos involved in Renly's death? Writers, etc. Why?

8. Hated Renly saying he loved his brother, Stannisq, once. Renly never loved Stannis and would never say this. And Stannis' offer to make him heir? So out of character given his feelings for Renly that it is laughable.

9. Margaery and Baelish have a conversation about at Renly's camp about the status of her marriage. Natalie Dormer did well, but again writers/producers, why?

10. Baelish brings Cat Ned's bones. Now the episode is bordering on being ludicrous.

11. I assume we met Jeyne Westerling tonight. If so, I like the tv version much better than the book version. Except for the fact that this Jeyne Westerling reminds me nothing of the Jeyne Westerling of the books, but hey, I'm sure the writers/directors/producers will figure out some bizarre way to deal with Sybell Spicer giving her daughter moon tea next season.

12. Qarth--was another wtf?

13. Caprice van Houten did a great job in the birthing of the shadow baby scene. First time I liked her.

14. Best things about this episode--Harrenhall and the shadow baby.

1. You already said it. Tyrion thought about it in the books, and in the show, he acted on that thought. What's wrong with that?

2. Just because he gave it to her once does not mean he cannot give it to her again at his departure, nor would it lessen the impact. I thought it was very appropriate for his character to be the ONLY one to help out Sansa in her dire situation.

3. They are trimming fat? Who would not want to see the actors who play Tywin and Arya reenact a similar relationship from the books?

6. Really? THIS is one of your nitpicks? They left out a line of interrogation?

7. Would the fact that Davos is an accomplice (by choice or not) in Renly's assassination not benefit the story more? Also, do we really want to see ANOTHER shadow baby for the castellan of Storm's End? Once is enough.

8. They were brothers after all. Also, not only was Stannis' offer to Renly in the books, Renly IS, in fact, the heir to Stannis until he produces an heir of his own, ALL OF WHICH Stannis stated in the show.

10. Ned's bones were used as a bargaining chip for persuading Cat to consider Tyrion's offer, which he suggested in an earlier episode this season. What of it?

I am just happy you actually added some positive comments thrown in with that exceedingly long list of criticisms.

As others said, D&D are being as faithful to the books as they possibly can while still making what they believe to be GREAT TV. You cannot QQ at every alteration. Be grateful that we even have ASoIaF being offered to us in a different medium.

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I like how the show is portraying Tywin. Sure the whole "get these prisoners to work" scene never happened in the books, but they didn't seem out of character at all to me. I've always had a place of respect for Tywin. Sure he is capable of amazing cruelty, but I don't ever think he's been cruel without purpose, and he can even be quite forgiving to those who renounce any kind of hostilities.

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Would anyone else just love an extra episode titled - "Arya's adventures - uncut!?" I would love that. And a 3 hour special. One can always dream.

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So, there are many episodes in the Series “Game of Thrones.” And this … was one of them. Good, but not great. Let’s start off with some things nice to say:

This is what I liked:

Stannis Baratheon, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Roynar and the First Men : I said last episode that the thing I liked about Maergery Tyrell was that she was ”In it to Win it”; she wasn’t about loving Renly or bringing peace to the realm or any in a long line of bullshit reasons people say they do things. No, she wanted to be Queen. And this episode we are watching Stannis Baratheon find his stride: he’s King of Westeroes and everyone else is something else- either they are rebels doing rebel things (Robb) or up-jumped Lords (Renly) who don’t know their place or shitty lords out on an island (Greyjoy) or monstrous abominations (Joff), but Stannis is a King going after what is his. And they are turning Stannis into this relentless force; this cool-headed man of few words and harsh actions who knows what’s his, knows how to get it and knows what it will take to get it.

In other words, for the first time since we met him, Stannis Baratheon of the series is acting like Stannis Baratheon of the books. And its working.

(Honorable Mention: Fewer- laughed out loud at that).

The Shadow Hand: Another episode, another Peter Dinklidge virtuoso performance. This time it was that darker side; that cold hearted and piercing stare he gave Lancel. He’s said it a few times now- he won’t end up like Ned Stark. And this episode? He didn’t say it. But for the first time we saw that Tyrion Lannister is definitely not the same man Ned Stark was. In some ways he’s just as decent- saving Sansa like that. But in other ways he’s brutal and cold such as in leaving Lancel to dangle. And when all was said and done he made it clear- see this face? Others won’t see it again.

And other times? Charisma, humor, deft moves. Everything in this show comes together in Tyrion. Its a great character,well written and expertly acted. Tyrion is the best part of this show (but that was predictable).

The Lord of the West, Harrenhal Westeros: I’ll take 5 minutes of Tywin Lannister. Okay 3. Fine. But in just a few minutes we got more from Tywin than we did in the (what seemed like) 25 minutes we were standing outside of Qarth. We discovered something: Tywin rules. Tywin doesn’t order; he doesn’t torture; he doesn’t humiliate. He doesn’t grovel. He rules. Tywin Lannister: sees with his eyes; hears with his ears; a man sees.

And a man knows.

Joffery the Mad: I kinda feel like they put this scene here just to fuck with certain people. “Oh, you thought watching Renly and Loras kiss last week was rough? Oh, you want to see rough sex scenes? Well, mother-fucker, we’ll show you rough sex scenes!” And then horror ensues. People I was watching the show with were openly gasping. It was a well done and brutal scene. In order for us to get to a place where Joff’s horribleness is beyond question we need to see him be a monster. And this was monstrous! Power corrupts and being fucking nuts corrupts absolutely.

Robb Stark: Before the Battle: The shot of Robb on his horse as the Lannister soldiers are talking was phenomenal. You get the sense that Robb knows what he is doing and is not awed by himself or the task before him.

What I am on the Fence About:

Catlyn Stark: No More Useful Than in the Books: I liked that Catlyn’s character got a lot said TO her this episode; she was chided by Stannis; she got to hear LF’s deal offered; she got back Ned’s bones. But I felt the whole time that she was REACTING to what was going on and never ACTING. Now, I thought her time on the screen was valuable: she took in and tied together a lot of plot. But I thought the story would have moved better had it been relieved of Cat’s presence. In the book, Cat HAS TO be there- she has to witness the deed. But in the show? She’s hardly essential. And then you add in Petyr and it just feels so forced. I will say that I liked that Petyr made it clear that Tyrion was making this offer TO HER not to Robb, and her reaction was …. Pretty good. But overall I think Cat in the series is showing us just how slow Cat from the books was.

(Honorable Mention: Oh, and how is she going to escape camp while carrying Ned’s bones?).

Robb Stark: After the Battle: So, a lame philosophical discussion with a cute woman after the battle discussing why you attached these men? Really? Did the writer fall asleep while watching an episode of MASH? The dialog was outdated even then. Seriously, it wasn’t a bad scene, just lazy and uninspired. You’re better than that.

What I Disliked:

Or She Could Just Show Them the Dragons:

This may seem like it’s a minor issue, but it’s a little bigger than many would think. So, Dany goes to Qarth and is greeted by like 19 people- 13 of which run the city. I would have thought that if 13 people run the city they could afford more than 1.5 guards each. But whatever. Okay, so they get there and this guy who is not Illyrio, but who seems like Illyrio, greats her and her starving troupe. And she starts complaining.

Or she could just show them the dragons.

The 13 then ask- openly –to see the dragons. And Dany makes this ham-handed attempt to bypass this.

Or she could just show them the dragons.

They ask again, this time pretty forcefully. Dany begins complaining- nay threatening Qarth … in what sound slike dialog that we will hear again soon with Cersei. Burn, cow, bow, kneel; cinders blah blah blah.

Or she could just show them the dragons.

There is more talking; the fat guy who is not Illyrio waddles back and forth and says how she cannot come in. Jorah warns Dany about how she shall handle this. Things grow quiet. She is desperate now. They may not get into the city after all. Will they be forced to starve out here?

Or she could just show them the dragons.

The Summer Idles guy comes out and he starts talking about stuff WE DON’T CARE ABOUT AT ALL! And he pulls out a knife and slashes his hand and makes this bold decoration. Yes, he will let them in, but it could cost him his own head!

Or she could just show them the dragons.

Seriously, what was that? 18 minutes? Okay, it wasn’t but it sure as hell felt like it. What did we accomplish? We got to see CGIs of a city. It may have been better to have seen CGI’d dragons, but whatever. All that time standing there and watching that pointless discussion, all I could think of was:

I wonder what they will cut for this pointless scene?

And that was basically what happened to Stannis v. Renly: an absolutely compelling scene because its really the last time two men who call themselves King will meet. Its hugely important. And yet…. What’s Stannis doing there? Remember in the books when Stannis lands- Cersei almost shits herself and Renly has to FLY back to SE to intercept him. In the show? WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT STANNIS IS DOING THERE! They never even announce him; he just shows up. And where are Davos and Mel going? The show never details this to us. How come Robb attacked this place? We are never told. Where is Jaime/Bran/Jon?

But hey, at least we got to see Dany scowl and yell pointless dialog at people we have never met and would never care about.

Here’s my point: Cut some things, I get it. But if the fastest way from A to B is a straight line and (and- don’t forget this next part when you argue with me) the story is not dramatically improved by the pointless detour… SKIP IT!

Overall this was a good episode. But it could have been excellent. And that’s what has me with this sour taste in my mouth. But I will get over it. I always do.

Edited by Rockroi

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Maybe I miswrote. I know how the Tickler looks, I actually have those same passages marked and read them before the tv airing. I was glad that he looked very nondescript like the book stated, but I remember how much his questions instilled fear into Arya. That was part of what was so scary about him. A ordinary looking man, but extremely scary and chilling when he did his "tickling." In aSoS in the inn, shivers went down her spine when she heard the Tickler ask a question. I just expected to be a little more scared by him.

I can see what you're saying...he didn't quite give off the scary vibe. But he did give off the ordinary vibe.

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What is up with Littlefinger this season? His voice is different and he lacks the big fake smirk. He seemed a lot more amiable last season. He's closer to Scar from Lion King than the way his character had been.

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Maybe I miswrote. I know how the Tickler looks, I actually have those same passages marked and read them before the tv airing. I was glad that he looked very nondescript like the book stated, but I remember how much his questions instilled fear into Arya. That was part of what was so scary about him. A ordinary looking man, but extremely scary and chilling when he did his "tickling." In aSoS in the inn, shivers went down her spine when she heard the Tickler ask a question. I just expected to be a little more scared by him.

I dunno man, if i saw someone torturing people day after day then he can any kind of voice and it's gonna scare the crap out of me.

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Just as Asha became Yara and has a different look, Jeyne Westerling's character is changed up a bit. She is from Volantis. She is the cause of the Red Wedding. At least that's what I took from the whole thing. Since Robb doesn't have a POV in Clash, we hear after how he meets "Jeyne". Because we need Robb in the show, how he meets "Jeyne" is written in to the whole thing. She isn't a smallish blonde who's shyish, she's a "strong," foreign brunette.

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Good episode. Didn't care for the Petyr - Catelyn scene. It seemed uncharacteristic, though I always wondered why he didn't make any play for her after her husband died.

Am I the only one glad to know that HBO has some standards and couldn't bring themselves to show us Sansa being too badly beaten? They even blocked the view of the first punch a little. Glad to know some lines won't be crossed.

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Did anything at all happen between Sandor and Sansa in this week’s episode?? I didn't see anything in the recap, I'm downloading the episode RIGHT NOW, but this is driving me mad!!! I need to know!!! :bawl:

If any of you want to do a good action, please tell me…

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More likely it will be closer to the end of next week's episode, I think it will give them more time to work the scene from Cat or Brienne's perspective.

Yeah, I think Cat and Brienne's perspective on what happens is just as important to get in. I don't think fading to black without getting their perspective on what happened would work.

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About the dragons...

TV-Dany is facing something Book-Dany never did: As TV-Jorah repeated in episode one I think, "They'll kill you and take your dragons." This was never the case in the books. In the books, she just showed up and people were delighted by them. They never said, "Watch your back." They said "How much?" The show is actually, dare I say it, being more realistic as to how she would be treated given the circumstances. If she showed them the dragons, they'd likely say, "Right. Grab 'em." and then kill her. And I thought her interaction with Jorah, the worried glances, betrayed that she's in a pickle. And then it doesn't take a genius to look at the guards and take the leap to where her concern is.

The real question is: why didn't they just kill her, search her packs, and take her dragons?

Edited by LauraD

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do we really want to see ANOTHER shadow baby for the castellan of Storm's End? Once is enough.

Not to mention, it would require casting an actor to play Sir Cortnay Penrose, so he can have exactly one awesome scene, then die. I, for one, am not ready to have a less awesome Battle of the Blackwater in order to pay his salary, and that is coming from someone who really dug Sir Cortnay in the one scene we see him in from the book.

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I've taken to liking the TV changes. They're like little surprises and make me look at the story from a different view point. Starting a new acronym: Line Of The Night. I'll start. LOTN: " Save it for the King! Joffrey LOVES a good grovel!"

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