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[Book Spoilers] EP 204 Discussion


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And to all the people who say just get over the fact that the tv show is not the books verbatim. I get it. I get that the tv shown is just based on the books. However, as you are entitled to your opinion, I am also entitled to mine, and that is this much character and plot divergence is a disservice to a really good story, and frankly, a disservice to the amazing season AGoT had last year.

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@squire They have to edit/change certain things to meet the budget and squeeze 1200 pages into a 10 hour episode. They don't need to show two shadow babies if you hadn't read the books you would just assume with Renly dead Storm's End would yield to the last remaining Baratheon alive in Stannis. Qarth looked amazing so I'm not sure what the big deal is there.

Plus in my opinion I like that things don't follow verbatim it keeps it interesting. I think the writers have done a great job of adding some to the story i.e. Jamie and Ned actually fighting in the first season.

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Well the thing about LF is that Cat is his biggest weakness. It always had been and remained so for the rest of her life. His making a move on Cat is similar to his kissing Sansa in the snow. Varys had it right when he lamented in the book on how clever men can be fools for love.

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Overall I really enjoyed this episode. Thought the Tyrion scenes were just tops. Same with Arya's scenes. The only parts I didn't care for were Dany's scene and Joffrey's whore scene. Shame that after not seeing Dany that this crappy scene is what they do with her. And Joff's part just seemed so pointless. While reading the books he always seemed like a typical spoiled rich kid, who got bored and did stupid things. Not a so much a monster like the show is portraying him.

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I thought this episode was the worst so far. My husband, who is in the middle of ASoS, is totally confused, while I just nerd rage:

1. Tyrion thought about getting Joffrey a whore, but never acted upon it. The scene with Joffrey and the whores was unnecessary. We know he's awful, and right now, he's more awful than Cersei And Theon combined.

2. I liked the setting up of the Tyrion/Sansa/Sandor thing, though when Sandor gave her his cloak, I just screamed, "Not now, damn it, not now!".

3. Arya as Tywin's cupbearer. What in the hell are the writers/directors/producers doing?

4. Harrenhal looked exactly as I imagined it. husband said the same thing.

5. Really liked Tyrion's exchange with Lancel. Peter Dinklage is great as always, and Eugene Simon did an outstanding job as Lancel.

6. The torture scenes at Harrenhal--good, but I wanted to hear the words of the interrogation, all of them? Did they really need to edit the whole "is there gold in the village?" questioning.

7. Davos is rowing Melisandre over to give birth to a shadow baby to kill Renly? Why, why, why? He despised doing it to kill Ser Cortnay Penrose, and it made us love him for hating Melisandre and for hating doing this duty for Stannis. Davos involved in Renly's death? Writers, etc. Why?

8. Hated Renly saying he loved his brother, Stannisq, once. Renly never loved Stannis and would never say this. And Stannis' offer to make him heir? So out of character given his feelings for Renly that it is laughable.

9. Margaery and Baelish have a conversation about at Renly's camp about the status of her marriage. Natalie Dormer did well, but again writers/producers, why?

10. Baelish brings Cat Ned's bones. Now the episode is bordering on being ludicrous.

11. I assume we met Jeyne Westerling tonight. If so, I like the tv version much better than the book version. Except for the fact that this Jeyne Westerling reminds me nothing of the Jeyne Westerling of the books, but hey, I'm sure the writers/directors/producers will figure out some bizarre way to deal with Sybell Spicer giving her daughter moon tea next season.

12. Qarth--was another wtf?

13. Caprice van Houten did a great job in the birthing of the shadow baby scene. First time I liked her.

14. Best things about this episode--Harrenhall and the shadow baby.

I think, and with all due respect, you aren't appreciating that this is an adaptation, not a word for word dramatic reenactment with unlimited time, budget and an audience of just readers.

Watching an adaptation means changes. The heart of the story is the same. there have been many novels that I chose to not watch the film adaptation of, because I knew it would break my heart.

Bearing in mind that very few, if any, novels get to be adapted into over 20+ hours of film and counting, we are a fortunate group.

The only way to recreate the series perfectly would be to reread.

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Mel's getting better, and the shadow baby scene was well done, but I had one issue with the whole smuggling thing: weren't they being pretty loud?

I mean, I've never smuggled, but half shouting theological counterpoints seems counterproductive to the whole 'black sail, black ship, try not to be noticed' thing.

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I enjoyed the episode like all the others. Just some thoughts I had.

The Tickler was much creepier in my head. The rats didn't even bother me. Maybe I've learned something about myself that I didn't really want to know.

I miss Conan Stevens as The Mountain. The replacement is too lean and just isn't as intimidating. He just looks like a really tall dude.

Harrenhal is nothing like I pictured it, but I like it.

Shadow baby was better than I pictured it.

I forgot what else I was going to say because the site stopped responding.

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@Jory...I'll be damned. Stannis does say this, after Renly tells him he never liked him, but has no wish to slay his own blood, and offers him Storm's End as a gift. However, you are correct, Stannis does tell Renly he will make him his heir. I guess I'm just the classic example of a premature nerd rage (but I stand by my other statements, until proven wrong, of course).

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@ Jory... Seriously? I gotta get out my copy of ACoK now.

yeah. After Stannis says that bit about until a son is born to him, Renly mocks Selyse and alludes to the Patchface rumor. That's when Stannis busts out Lightbringer.

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I can't beleive they didn't show what the shadow did. My non-book-read brother asked me if it was a dragon.

So there is a Bolton, Jaqen is of the red lot, and Penrose/Renly shall be merged. Interesting.

Joffrey is turning into a right proper monster.

New Mountain, new mountain armor = thumbs down.

Qarth scene made it seem ridiculously odd that they didn't just shoot some crossbows and take the dragons.

By the by, you can't go around sawing off limbs. If you don't caulderize the stump, you bleed to death and if somehow you don't bleed out, you now have a limb-sized wound to get infected.

HBO interactive has the feature "Look through Talisa's medical kit" I didn't think it was Jeyne at first, but i think that is the actress cast presumably for Book-Jeyne's role.

"The next time Ser Meryn speaks, kill him."

Harrenhall was not as I pictured it in my mind. I pictured the massive 'entering through the gate was like walking through a tunnel' well built but castle but with some towers turned to slag. I also figured Dany had more than 20 people w/ her.

I liked Raqarro much better than the other fella who remains.

This all said, this is easily my 2nd favorite episode thus far, almost my favorite.

Though I def liked book Renly better, I'm going to miss this one as well.

Well looks like we'll get to see who Brienne is stabbing in the next episode. Probably another rainbow guard... rather than loras killing them.

Why is your stag on fire?

Salt and smoke, is he a ham?

Ah, gay renly, how we shall miss thee.

Final Observation ... yet another ~50 minute episode. One would think that if your problem is too much to include, you would maximize episode time. Over the season we're looking at two whole episodes worth of time being lost.

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@True Northerner

I have re-read (3 times). I am not expecting a verbatim recreation of the books. I just like the tv show much better when it stays as true to the original story as can be expected given the constraints of the medium of television. As I indicated, just my opinion. I realize others have differing ones.

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This I have to disagree with. I think it was made abundantly clear in the book that the Tickler is one of the most ordinary men Arya has ever met. Even after having seen him torture people, she would remark that she would look at him and forget he was a Lannister man. Here are the passages

Maybe I miswrote. I know how the Tickler looks, I actually have those same passages marked and read them before the tv airing. I was glad that he looked very nondescript like the book stated, but I remember how much his questions instilled fear into Arya. That was part of what was so scary about him. A ordinary looking man, but extremely scary and chilling when he did his "tickling." In aSoS in the inn, shivers went down her spine when she heard the Tickler ask a question. I just expected to be a little more scared by him.

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Just wanted to say again how awesome the shadow baby scene was

I mean, I love the books as well as the next person on this board, but the produces must have had sleepless nights trying to figure out how they were going to pull that scene off without making it look like a really bad, B rated straight to DVD movie release.

Try explaining that scene to a non-fan and make them think it could look even half good. But HBO once again NAILED it.


Edited by blasted_saber
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@J.S. Crews

Did you not read my statement acknowledging that I was wrong? It's ok. I'll say it again. I was wrong about Stannis' offering to make Renly his heir. It's clearly in the books. In fact, i'mnlooking at the page now.....

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The only thing I didn't like about this episode was that it did not end where I expected it to. I thought for sure we would end this one with

Renly's death in the tent

and that would set up the cliffhanger for next week. It would have been epic. I don't know why they would push that to the beginning of next week's episode.

They ended it at 50 min too, so they had at least 10 more minutes to fit it in.

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You know, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being an asoiaf purist and getting frustrated with the show. Do some of us ever take it too far? Probably. But it's understandable for people who love these books so much to get annoyed when things get changed that they don't want to, even if it's small. I think some people take it a little too far - like boycotting the show because Ghost barked in the first season, but still. GRRM even says he has admiration of the purists.

But it all has to do with acceptance - you must accept that this the show is the show and the book is the book. Although GRRM is involved in the show, it is not his baby. If you can accept that, it is easier to overcome being really upset at some of the changes.

Edited by vanille
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