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teemo

[Book Spoilers] Joffrey and the whores

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Do they really NEED to though? Most viewers already hate Joffrey and he has plenty of scenes directly from the book that illustrate what type of person he is between now and his death. More importantly do they NEED to show this scene over showing Stannis brandish Light Bringer and Renly with his peach? Or Davos and Stannis explaining exactly how Davos became the Onion Knight? Or Arya wandering with her pack of Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy after escaping Ser Amory, only to get caught by the Mountain's men? There are so many scenes from the book that have to be cut or drastically reduced due to time, so it is pretty difficult for me to accept that this scene was "needed" when so many better scenes have to be cut or turned into cliff note versions of the original.

Aside from Renly who isn't even that important in the book. There will be plenty of time to show Stannis brandishing lightbringer and letting us get to know these other characters better in the following seasons and episodes. Would i have liked seeing some of the stuff you mention you bet but I can understand why it's been left out or will be expanded on later.

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I am not sure Sophie does topless stuff.

Missed the Hound's reaction, tho he is the one who puts his cloak over her.

Now wasn't it Tyrion, in the novel, who stopped all that nonsense?

I doubt Sophie is allowed to do topless stuff as she is only 15/16 years old.

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This is a tv adaption, many non-book readers don't know the extent of Joffrey's craziness, so the tv producers want to display what a character he is.

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Well, I've been thinking about this, and you also have to consider that Joffrey is somewhat of a fan favorite. Not like viewers love him, but love to hate on him. Anyone I talk to about the show just can't get over what a little shit he is. Maybe the writers think, "Hey, we can get some T&A in one scene while showing how crazy Joffrey is. People will love that!" That's not what I personally love, but I guess I can see where they're coming from....I would have honestly preferred an extended scene with Sansa. They could have shown Dontos and the watermelon and how Joffrey wasn't pleased with that amount of humiliation and wanted more. We could have heard more punching sounds from Meryn and Sansa's screaming. Not that I like to Sansa get beat up (she's one of my favorite characters), but it would have been more true to the book and that stupid, drawn-out whore scene could have been chopped.

And honestly, if they're going to do the whore scene, go further with it. Have Joffrey kill Ros with a crossbow and send her head to Tyrion. Then we kill one bird with two stones - Ros is dead and Joff is more horrific than ever.

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I'd say the Sansa beating was cut back, both to spare the viewers the sight and to make Tyrion arrive "just in time", not too late.

Afterwards, they probably felt that Tyrion "educating" Joffrey without any consequences for the rest of the episode didn't work, it would look like Tyrion had control over Joffrey and was keeping him in line. So the whore scene was added to clearly show what would have happened to Sansa without intervention, and to show that Joffrey is still out of control and sending Tyrion a message.

The only thing I felt was really missing was Cleganes protest, even if Sansa wasn't that badly beaten at all - IIRC, he was even smiling, which would be totally out of character.

I felt sorry for the actor playing Joffrey, they really tested his limits. Theres only so many scenes you can stomach playing the crazy sadist in increasingly disturbing scenes.

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This was my "favourite" scene in the episode. There was never going to be as much detail in the show as there was in the books, so the important things need to get stressed. Joff needed a douche-boost this season. He's been a dick this season, but in ways that you can kind of see his reasoning. Having the whore scene on top of the Sansa stripping scene completely hammers home how much of a creep Joff is. When it comes to the purple wedding in season 3/4 the audience has to be completely 100% aware that this guy is a complete arse-wipe.

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Aside from Renly who isn't even that important in the book. There will be plenty of time to show Stannis brandishing lightbringer and letting us get to know these other characters better in the following seasons and episodes. Would i have liked seeing some of the stuff you mention you bet but I can understand why it's been left out or will be expanded on later.

There will be plenty of time to show Joffrey as well. The scene would have been perfect in an extended directors cut dvd, but it was one of, if not the longest scene in the entire show counting Tyrion and Bronn's discussion prior and the Hound and Joffrey before Joffrey goes in the room. Game of Thrones just doesn't really need "filler" scenes when there is so much brilliant book content to cover that they can't possibly get to it all even if they didn't feel the need to make up completely original scenes not related to book content.

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Regardless of how far it went the scene was needlessly redundant and there's no chance they couldn't have done something better with the time. We know Joff's a monster. They literally had him kill babies in the first episode, and the scene immediately preceding the one in question re-established his status as biggest shit in the known universe.

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Well, I've been thinking about this, and you also have to consider that Joffrey is somewhat of a fan favorite. Not like viewers love him, but love to hate on him. Anyone I talk to about the show just can't get over what a little shit he is. Maybe the writers think, "Hey, we can get some T&A in one scene while showing how crazy Joffrey is. People will love that!" That's not what I personally love, but I guess I can see where they're coming from....I would have honestly preferred an extended scene with Sansa. They could have shown Dontos and the watermelon and how Joffrey wasn't pleased with that amount of humiliation and wanted more. We could have heard more punching sounds from Meryn and Sansa's screaming. Not that I like to Sansa get beat up (she's one of my favorite characters), but it would have been more true to the book and that stupid, drawn-out whore scene could have been chopped.

And honestly, if they're going to do the whore scene, go further with it. Have Joffrey kill Ros with a crossbow and send her head to Tyrion. Then we kill one bird with two stones - Ros is dead and Joff is more horrific than ever.

This. Completely 100% agree with your view on this. :)

Also, as others have said - I believe the producers may have decided to add a different way for Joffrey to be a 'sadistic monster' (as if we didn't already know that by now) because they were cutting out most of the 'beating' scenes with Sansa. If you recall from the book, poor Sansa's abuses went on for quite awhile until Tyrion found out and put a stop to it. Since they played that card already this season, there won't be anymore Sansa abuse scenes and they've got to find other ways to keep Joffrey's reputation building. Also remember, coming up soon is where Joffrey is mobbed in public while riding with the royal procession through King's Landing. The 'commonfolk' hate him (and now with the bastard slayings they have good reason to for the show too). Joffrey's now a baby slayer and a whore abuser as well ... without all of the other behind the scenes stuff from the books (the animal tortures and continued abuse of Sansa) most viewers may not see as clearly why he's so hated. In the books he just came across as a spoiled brat who ended up abusing power to hurt Sansa, but in the show he's truly a sadistic monster who isn't afraid to do anything and doesn't even realize it will eventually be his own undoing. He honestly isn't taking Tyrion's lesson about the mad king's demise at all to heart.

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I'd say the Sansa beating was cut back, both to spare the viewers the sight and to make Tyrion arrive "just in time", not too late.

Afterwards, they probably felt that Tyrion "educating" Joffrey without any consequences for the rest of the episode didn't work, it would look like Tyrion had control over Joffrey and was keeping him in line. So the whore scene was added to clearly show what would have happened to Sansa without intervention, and to show that Joffrey is still out of control and sending Tyrion a message.

This. 100% Agreement.

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Have Joffrey kill Ros with a crossbow and send her head to Tyrion. Then we kill one bird with two stones - Ros is dead and Joff is more horrific than ever.

Why aren't you writing this show?

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Maybe this is how they are bringing in the Layala's beaten whore (can't remember her name) to Tyrion?? That was what I thought they were doing when I watched it. Since they aren't using the brothel as Tyrion's way out to see Shae, maybe this is how they get to beat a whore?

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I'm with the people who wanted to see more of the Sansa being beaten. Not because I liked her getting beaten...I hated it, it was a very cringe worthy moment in the book that was very important to directly show how badly Sansa had it, and how the knights of Kings Landing weren't very "Knightly" which makes Sandor's opinion of Knighthood so much more relevant with him sort of sticking up for Sansa.

It's meant more to the story that just showing Joffery being a sick little cunt of a king. It effects the development of other characters.

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I don't see why people think him ordering the bastard's deaths is worse then him sending someone after Bran. I don't think the show is ever going to reveal that so I don't have a problem with him getting the blame for the bastards-something Cersei did atleast to a certain extent in the books. They just changed the culprits.

I kind of like the scene in the books where he is trying to shoot rabbits with the crossbow in the gardens, and wish they had just kept that instead of him threatening a whore with one while she beats another. It was a nice mix of sadistic incompetence.

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Perhaps they're saving the bunny scene for when Littlefinger gets back, he had a great quip about hoping everyone liked rabbit since the Red Keep would soon be overrun (since Joff was such a bad shot).

I actually think they may have been forced to pull back on the Sansa beating not only because of Sophie's age, but also because of the perceived age of her character. In the books she starts out as 11, in the show 13-14. That's still too young to have anything too risque. I don't think this is a US rule but a British one, IIRC D&D and GRRM were interviewed about the need to age the children because of this.

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I have to think that just as they're establishing Joffrey to be even more sadistic and nasty than in the books, they're also giving him a little more in the 'smarts' department. He's learning how to play the game of thrones, albeit in his own way. He's not just running around being a little prick...he's also trying to outsmart the other players. Now if it turns out that was just a random scene to make him seem nastier I'll be disappointed.

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This scene reminded me of that awfulness that Ramsay forced on Theon and Jeyne. Torture porn is in the books; and I think this scene fits right in with Martin's style :ack: . The odd things is, I don't think they can develop Ramsay's character in quite the same way since they're already going down that road with Joff. I would think it would be repetitive.

They clearly chose to give Sansa some agency. She made an impression by walking out of there with her head held high. If Tyrion is impressed, the audience should be as well. They aren't going to make her the sole vehicle for Joff's sadism (speaking of, I don't think Joff is a sexual sadist, maybe he's just a sadist. The whole thing appeared to be non-sexual for him).

People talking about the cruel beating of Sansa vs. the cruel beating of prostitutes - I really don't see the problem, either way, the talk isn't about the victims. It's about Joff himself.

I have a different critique of that scene; I hated the gag-inducing chivalry Tyrion displayed. If he was really chivalrous he wouldn't have sent the prostitute who he "tipped for her trouble" in Ep 3 to his disturbed nephew. So much for a "tip." So much for an "education." :dunno:

To be honest, Ramsay is going to be flaying people alive. Joff is the tip of the iceberg.

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Also, to think that the entire ship and shboodle was necessary to the scene is to misunderstand the importance of the scene, I feel.

I agree with this too. There wasn't really any need to strip Sansa's dress completely down to her waist as was done in the book. The idea is to convey that she's being really cruelly abused and humiliated in front of the entire court - and the scene certainly conveyed that without any doubt.

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That scene was a huge waste of time. There are so many things happening in a Clash of Kings, I can't believe the writers wastes 10-15 minutes per episode on scenes like that.

If they really wanted to show for the 101th times that Joffrey is cruel, they could have made Tyrion send a single whore to him and then show us a short scene where she returns to Tyrion all bruised and bloody. That would have had the same effect in less than 2 minutes.

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The major flaw with the scene is not Joff sending a message to Tyrion, it's Tyrion sending the same damn whore from Pycelle's room to Joff after paying her double. He's got to know that's it's a bad idea.

Actually, the whole damn scene is flawed now that I think about it.

1. See above

2. He's the king. Get him some hot whores. Not chinless ones or 30 year-olds. Every single woman in Sparatcus is hotter than every woman in GoT. Time to even the score.

3. It's kind of a rip-off of the Pulp Fiction scene where Butch is selecting his weapon.

4. The purpose of D and D's scene here could have been much better served with him shooting rabbits or even worse, kittens. Seriously. I'd get super irate at Joff for crossbowing a kitten. Way more than Roz or the chinless one.

OTOH, if their plan was just to make the audience uncomfortable, then mission accomplished;

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