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teemo, April 23, 2012 in E04: Garden of Bones
First of all, I believe the people here didn't ask for a Sansa nudity scene, the cloth cutting we saw in the scene was enough, but they believe the beating by Ser Meryn should have continued, as that would be a lot more painful to watch for the viewers.
The showrunners probably thought that it was too much, and decided to let Joffrey torture the prostitutes instead - while just as vile, the women were not children.
Also, this may be the start of setting up Ros as a replacement for Alataya - in a future scene, we might see Tyrion apologizing to her for what Joffrey did. Cersei picks up on him talking to her, falsely believes that she is his whore and not Shae, and then whips her to hurt him. Tyrion, who feels responsible for dragging Ros into the middle of this, goes on the offensive.
He tried to finish Bran, which is interesting because it indicates not only does he have no problem killing but that he picked up on why Bran had fallen in the first place which is something almost no one ever figured out!
In the books, Joffrey never knew the truth about Cersei and Jaime. He believed Robert Baratheon to be his father (and even provoked Tywin in SoS, saying how Robert won all the battles while Tywin was hiding under Casterly Rock).
He sent the cutthroat after Bran because he heard Robert talking about it being merciless to allow the kid to live, and that they should just end his suffering. Joffrey picked up on this and tried to fulfill Roberts wish, to impress him, not because he had any connection to Bran.
I also really believe that Joffrey was a sociopath, i.e. simply incapable of feeling any empathy for others - him cutting up the cat and torturing Tommen are strong indicators - and just wanted to please his father and be a merciless and respected ruler like he believed Robert Baratheon was. Inflicting pain on others is the only thing he knew to have any effect. He was a tragic character, and died as an immature kid.
In the shows, they seem to flesh this out a lot, probably because the actor plays the role that convincing.
The Joffrey actor is just great, close to Dinklage and Charles Dance. And here Joffrey is shown as being fifteen, he cannot be older, otherwise Cersei would not be Queen Regent anymore. So he must be aware of the rumours about his father, anything else would be rather unbelievable.
And the series have so much more possibilites to show the older juvenile as sociopath compared to a younger boy. Joffrey is of a calculated creepy cruelty that is performance at its best.
I think the fact that they are playing down the Sandor and Sansa relationship means that is probaly not as important as some people think. Sorry SanSan Sisterhood. King Caligula, I mean King Joffery, is shown doing this because it displays his contempt for Tyrion and women.
I think their relatioship is critical to her storyline regardless of how a person may feel about SanSan. But the producers have already said in interviews that he is attracted to her and talked about the reasons behind it. And. in the DVD commentaries, one of the writers explicitly said their relationship will be played out. I am getting the sense that it will happen in the second half of the seaon.
I think it would be considered child porn in some countries since Sophie is under 18.
It was not needed to show nudity. They made the knight rip the dress on the back, and she still kept it over her breast, and it was horrible enough (that is actually exactly how I imagined the scene would be handled).
Just want to clarify somthing, I dont think extra nudity would have solved the dilema, it definately would be considered child porn in some counries. as a matter of fact thats why the gown was ripped from the back, because even if they had cleverly ripped the gown from the front and not shown anything it STILL would be considered child porn in some countries as actors under the age of eighteen cant even be "suggested to be" nude.
I feel that the joff and his postitutes establish that he is far more depraved than previously imagined. However I too would have prefered the original scene, and for me the most important aspect of the original scene was the melon beating given by dontos, where everyone at court was laughing at her except joff, the humiliation in that moment is palpable where sansa and the reader are willing him to be satisfied, a couple of nervous glances by the hound between her and the king, followed by the beating and the "enough" line by sandor, followed by the dress being torn (even in the back like they did would have been fine) and then enter tyrion.
that scene establishes Sansa's humiliation and fear, joffs depravity, and the hounds chivalrous nature.
the scene as it stands (with the added prostitute scene) does the same with the exception of the hound info.
I personally would have prefered the book scene. I can understand given HBO's proclivity towards nudity content that they decided to trade one nude scene they couldnt do for one they could. not what I would have done as a director but I dont work for HBO
I dont see why they needed to change it other than nudity content. Unless there is going to be ramifications from what joff does to the prostitutes. if there is, then Im ok with the change, i dont mind deviating from the story if it serves a purpose.
This scene was the most disappointing of all I've seen. They could have gone all sort of ways while keeping the spirit of the original scene, but no! They had to f*ck it up!
I think their relationship is important.But even if it is not, it gives Sansa something to do, some scenes to make with her during her stay in the keep. Now we see her so very little that Ros has more scenes than her.I do not mind THAT much if their relationship is omitted or toned down, but please give her something to do instead of showing us Ros and Joff.
I think their relationship is important.
But even if it is not, it gives Sansa something to do, some scenes to make with her during her stay in the keep. Now we see her so very little that Ros has more scenes than her.
I do not mind THAT much if their relationship is omitted or toned down, but please give her something to do instead of showing us Ros and Joff.
It would have been better if they had just shown the girls going to Tyrion after Joff had abused them. Then we could once again see what a nice guy Tyrion is. :shocked: I'd have rather seen more Shae and Sansa scenes than that or Sansa and Dontos, or just about anything.
The Joffrey actor is just great, close to Dinklage and Charles Dance. And here Joffrey is shown as being fifteen, he cannot be older, otherwise Cersei would not be Queen Regent anymore. So he must be aware of the rumours about his father, anything else would be rather unbelievable.And the series have so much more possibilites to show the older juvenile as sociopath compared to a younger boy. Joffrey is of a calculated creepy cruelty that is performance at its best.
This is a good point. Book Joffrey is about 3-4 years younger, so TV Joff is going to be a little different. Another good example is Robb. In the books I always saw him as a little boy that was very clever and quick in many ways, but was still just a boy playing king. In the show, however, considering Richard Madden is playing a much older version Robb, a lot of things are different. They have to tone down "you're just a little boy" thing tremendously, since he obviously looks like a full-grown man. He probably will clearly not be a virgin when he sleeps with Talisa/Jeyne/whoever the hell.
Jon is another example. He cries a lot more in the books, especially the first. He is way more of a baby. I love Jon, but like Robb, he just turned 15 right around the beginning of the book. I remember when he cried/almost cried when Tyrion was messing with him. While book Jon eventually becomes much more stoic and mature, show Jon always kind of had to be this way because of his age. If he was crying or screaming at Tyrion it would have looked ridiculousness.
There's a lot of subtle changes they have been made to the characters based on the age changes. I still think the whore scene was stupid and should have been eliminated or at least heavily modified, but they are having to portray a 15/16 year old psycho instead of a 12/13 year old one. Not to mention, I don't even think the show ever said what "of age" means. It could mean 18 or something in the show, so Joffrey could actually be 16/17. Book readers were exposed to Joffrey's craziness over short periods over a long time. In the show, these scenes are going to have be more blunt and pronounced. HBO would rather have him torturing hookers than shooting rabbits with a crossbow. Still, hated it. There must be better ways. Oh, and the show doesn't even really seem to remind viewers that Joffrey really isn't even in charge of ruling the realm. He can't have the Queen Regent's head off.
Hmm what just came to my mind is that...
Also the actor is amazing and I would totally support a Joffrey spin-off series. Possibly featuring Wil Wheaton as his sidekick
Well, I thought that the whole scene showed more than the Joffrey's sadism: the hatred he has for his uncle. He wants the whores to be hurt because Tyrion intervened when he had his fun with Sansa. Also, by sending them back to Tyrion, he makes sure that his uncle will know how cruel he really is and that he is totally unwilling to respect any gift of him. So, the whole scene becomes a message to his uncle - which is imho quite interesting regarding SoS when Tyrin gets accused of killing Joffrey: if their mutual dislike is know to court longtime beforehand, it is quite understandable why everybody would easily believe Tyrion's guilt.
I thought this scene was deeply disturbing, it really shows Joffrey for what he is and allows non-readers to see how evil he is. Sending the women back to his uncle will only deepen the animosity between them. You could see there was no love lost in season one, I think it will escalate nicely for next season and a certain wedding.
Just another reason to show Ros' tits, I'd wager
This is a tv adaption, many non-book readers don't know the extent of Joffrey's craziness, so the tv producers want to display what a character he is.
They've already seen it in the last few episodes
have just rewatched the second season and i skipped the Ros scenes. the only one i kept was the one where littlefinger gives her the day off.
i can honestly say i did not miss them, and i think that this episode in particular was much better without the prostitute beating. it kept my focus on sansa's misfortune. maybe it's easier for me to go without because i already KNOW what joffrey is, i don't require that scene to show me.
now if only dany at the gates of qarth (and sumai) weren't still so awful. . . .
I am going to agree with the original poster. This scene was disturbing and unnecessary. There was so much more they could have added just by leaving out a few of these irrelevant and pointless scenes. Of course they added more sex, it's HBO - however this story doesn't need it. I generally think that they add sex scenes to sell films and shows with no real plot to hold it afloat...Don't get me wrong, some sex, provided it fits snugly into the story is great...But this was over the top. We know Joffery is sick and twisted, we saw this when he attacked Mycah, called for Ned's head, commanded that Sansa be beaten (various times) and didn't care at all about his starving people in the city. What more do we need? It's not as if we thought he had a fraction of empathy or kindness to begin with. Plus we already hate him.
I do feel however that they are trying to soften Cersei's character. Perhaps they mean to give her some redeeming qualities, although I'm not quite sure why.