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Eggplant Wizard

[BOOK SPOILERS] Littlefinger, is that still you?

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I realize this isn't exactly a "new" complaint, but the changes to Littlefinger are starting to get to me. I thought they wrote him very well in the first season and he was exactly like I thought he'd be: sly and always 15 steps ahead of everybody. He projected confidence and some mystery, you never really knew what to expect from the guy. Compare that to this season where he's telling Cat he loves her and almost getting Cersei to kill him. That is not Littlefinger, he wouldn't have tipped his hand. The scenes lack the poise and calculated/cautious maneuvering which is so central to the character. So far we've seen Tyrion play off his greed and lose himself around Cat. This makes him appear to be more of a pawn and less of a player than he was in the first season in particular when it paired him with Varys as two rivals competing for the throne.

I realize book Littlefinger is a man we have built up from mostly offscreen whispers. He returns from the Tyrells where he made some big accomplishment. He leaves again immediately to marry Lysa and we never see how he did what he did. I like how the show pulls the veil back and I guess it's possible we're just projecting this expert "poker face" onto Littlefinger because we see so little of him.

Now, back to the episode: it was pointed out to me that he went right from his admission of still loving Cat to immediately starting to lie to her again, as if it was all part of a larger scheme to make Cat believe he was sincere and therefore so were the Lannisters in their offer to exchange Jaime for the girls. This is possible considering what show Littlefinger said to one of his prostituties. She said Cat must be very beautiful and he said "no," that he didn't even think that anymore. I forget the exact exchange if anybody can remember.

Thoughts? Thoughts on LF in general?

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Glad someone started a LF thread, because I was about to do it.

GRRM recently stated in an interview that tv LF is significantly different from book LF. So from here on out, I don't really care what they do. I know that's not the LF I know, so if they want to butcher his character fine (this episode was still a little bitter from "power is power.")

LF was certainly very prevalent in this episode, like they don't want viewers to forget who he is. My opinions on his interactions:

Renly: I need to re-watch this, but nothing really irked me about this scene. They were just trying to show that he is a schemer.

Margaery: rather pointless. Once again, LF bragging about his knowledge to powerful people for no real reason....more "knowledge is power" BS. Once again, Petyr is a bit more subtle than that.

Cat: "I've loved you since I was a little boy...." at least it became kind of clear that he may have been toying with her. But the show is definitely trying to emphasize on LF's love for Cat (in the first season from Ned to Cat: "He still loves you, you know), which I don't really like. LF had feelings for her when he was a boy, was heavily rejected and humiliated, and has been bitter about that and everyone else ever since. That fueled his ambitions even more for becoming a man born of nothing to a man of great power.

Love? I don't know. But doing it this way will be easier to explain to the audience why he says, "The only person I ever loved was Cat" or whatever when he throws Lysa out the Moon Door.

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I agree he's different than I perceived it, mainly for exactly the reason you said - we didn't actually see much of him.

And one can still be in love with someone, or at least obsess over the fact that you used to love someone, while realizing that they are no longer objectively beautiful. I could see Littlefinger letting his mask drop in front of Catelyn, if only for a little, so that didn't bother me nearly as much as the scenes in court.

Overall I don't think it will affect any of the later badassery he pulls off, right now I just think the writers are struggling to give him screen-time when the source material doesn't do much for him.

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Maybe I will break this down more later when I'm not on my phone, but... I have a number of feelings here, a sense of loss, disconnect, and mild confusion.

I am thinking at this point that I should probably start thinking of tv Petyr separately from book Petyr and base future actions and expectation against that character alone, which makes sense to some degree, but actually trying to do that is kind of confusing.

Also, with all of his interactions from this episode, what part of the action was Tyrion's plot, what part is Petyr's own scheming and what part is just empty writing, which there seemed to be some of this week? I don't know if looking at any of the angles make any sense anymore. Do you?

(null)

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Well I think the idea from the books is that while yes, he's spent his whole life recreating himself into a greater man (figuratively) because he was not considered worthy enough by the Tulleys as a boy, he did truly have love (even if a first crush kind of intense love) for Catelyn. He's always wanted the chance to get her back. I don't think it was a badly played scene - if a little awkward for Littlefinger to expose himself and his true wants from Catelyn for a brief private moment. Tyrion sent him to negotiate and bring back Ned's bones to her, but of course he's going to throw in a little selfish negotiations too.

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The thing with Cat didn't bother me. If there's one person in his world who I can see Littlefinger "slipping up" with, it's Cat. Love makes people irrational, and with Ned gone, I can see LF getting emotional with the supposed love of his life.

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I believe, simply, they have given LF too much screen time.

That said they have to accelerate plots faster and move characters around geographically more (as this was a significant drawback in the novels IMO.

Still, I had super faith in Aiden Gillen when I heard the casting.

Even went and rewatched S3-5 of The Wire to get a feel for his acting.

Sadly, this was to be my downfall. I am a bit dissapointed to be honest in LF in the series.

They are writing too much for him, where his place should be (at this point in ASOIF) offscreen, scheming, and sending ravens.

But, I love the show (but books more) so I will deal!

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Ah, the good old "Lets get togather baby, and btw here is your husbands bones". I just cant belive that did not work :ack:

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Ah, the good old "Lets get togather baby, and btw here is your husbands bones". I just cant belive that did not work :ack:

Over Ned's dead body...

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Littlefinger is more reactionary in the television series, but the character is the same. It's disappointing to see that so many of you can't distance yourselves from the book series and look at the show with fresh, untainted eyes.

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I can see where they're going with Littlefinger. Looking at his arc throughout the books, I'm starting to see the narrative sense of punctuating his scenes with him being fast and loose with his thoughts.

Regarding his encounter with Cat,

this is what seeds his uncomfortable fascination with Sansa. He realizes at this point that he'll never have Catelyn back. Sansa is a younger, naive, more beautiful, and more impressionable version of Cat. Littlefinger sees in Sansa a chance to start over again, now that he is a man of position.

Book readers keep whining that Littlefinger is losing his mystique as an unknowable master manipulator, but I'm thinking of his character in terms of the long run, and how non-reading audiences see him. It's fascinating seeing him still slip up and bawl -- after all, he's still a man. Bookfinger seems to have become this archetype, too much of an ideal. Like Cersei in the series, they're adding layers to his character. This is important. When the show reveals the depths of Littlefinger's machinations, they can have these slight character moments that will inform where his motivations come from.

At this point, Littlefinger exposes himself because of hubris.

Book readers know that he basically sparked the war between the Starks and Lannisters, and may have nudged Joffrey to execute Ned. His stumbling about may be interpreted as overconfidence in his own abilities and achievements.

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Littlefinger is more reactionary in the television series, but the character is the same. It's disappointing to see that so many of you can't distance yourselves from the book series and look at the show with fresh, untainted eyes.

Hear, hear. I was fascinated with Littlefinger in Season 1, before I had even read any of the books. Going into Season 2, you start to see more layers of his personality.

I think this is only because Littlefinger is swimming in hubris. For all we know, he did conspire to have Ned executed, and this has made him arrogant. His slip-ups with Cersei and Catelyn are more a man tripping over his accomplishments than a man who cannot hide his motives.

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Littlefinger is more reactionary in the television series, but the character is the same. It's disappointing to see that so many of you can't distance yourselves from the book series and look at the show with fresh, untainted eyes.

I don't think he's more reactionary in the show and our view of the character isn't "disappointing." Nitpicking is one thing, but this is a significant book character and one of my favorite characters. I'm hoping they don't do anything silly with Jaime since he's my favorite.

Hear, hear. I was fascinated with Littlefinger in Season 1, before I had even read any of the books. Going into Season 2, you start to see more layers of his personality.

I think this is only because Littlefinger is swimming in hubris. For all we know, he did conspire to have Ned executed, and this has made him arrogant. His slip-ups with Cersei and Catelyn are more a man tripping over his accomplishments than a man who cannot hide his motives.

Sure, the power scene makes it seem like he's arrogant. I see that, he thinks he's the man because he got Ned killed. But his scene with Cat doesn't show hubris, it shows vulnerability. If it was an honest admission then he is uncharacteristically broadcasting a weakness - he would be doing something book LF would never have done. Ever. However, if you read it as all part of a larger plan to make Cat think he and the Lannisters were sincere in their offer, then it is within his character.

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Isn't Littlefinger's whole raison d'etre Catelyn Tully? Wasn't what happened to him as a boy at Riverrun central to forming the twisted character we're introduced to at the time of AGoT? Like someone said upthread...if he's gonna slip up in front of anyone, it would be Catelyn.

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The Margaery scene was my biggest issue with him this episode. Right when it began, I had hoped it would be a bit more of a clever scene between two players laying the framework for what would be some sort of a relationship between Littlefinger and the Tyrells (or Olenna, specifically). Instead, it was Littlefinger doing more out-of-character flaunting and looking like a tool. Obviously, this wouldn't have involved overt marriage arrangements or anything yet, but there's a lot of room between the level of secretive cooperation they seem to have enjoyed in the book and the scene we were given.

In any case, I can console myself with the fact Book Littlefinger is still significantly different from this portrayal. It doesn't take (much) enjoyment away from the show, despite the fact he's my favorite character.

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I feel like they are showing his vulnerabilities now and making him look more human so that viewers may start underestimating him again, just like the characters on the show are. Then when his master scheming, which I am sure will happen soon in the show, starts to work and his final plots are revealed there will be more of a shock factor.

I have learned to separate book and TV LF at this point, but I don't like how some people on the boards are insulting die hard Littlefinger fans who are not happy with the clear changes that have been made. Posters have made well thought out and valid criticisms of the character, and they have every right to analyze the changes and be upset with them. If your favorite character was changed, do you think you wouldn't comment on it? A forum is not going to be full of people just singing praises for everything on the show.

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I don't think the scene where he confronted Catelyn was genuine. He's probably acting. His mission after all is to get Catelyn to release the Kingslayer.

But the scene with Cersei, yeah, that's just silly.

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Littlefinger is more reactionary in the television series, but the character is the same. It's disappointing to see that so many of you can't distance yourselves from the book series and look at the show with fresh, untainted eyes.

It's okay, I'm sure I will get over it.

The producers know all of the same things that we do, plus whatever GRRM has told them. When I watch the show I expect that some of what takes place is informed by this extra info from GRRM. I expect that the show will show character's motivations a little more plainly than how things are presented in the books. An example of this was LF in the Ros audition scene. I thought his monologue was great. I think that, like so many of the poster here have said, that LF blowing his cool with Cat is consistent with this, even if having a try with her while delivering her husbands bones was pretty stupid.

Before reading this thread, it had not occurred to me that some of show LF's actions could be explained by him becoming to full of himself after his recent successes. Good.

What is kind of a drag for me, is my new perception of his conversations. I've gotten used to listening to conversations with LF, Varys, Tyrion and some others closely and seeing a lot of subtleties. This is how it is in the books and has been on the show. But now I'm wondering if this in no longer true for LF on the show. As I watched all of the LF scenes in this last episode, I had this bad feeling as I wondered whether I should just accept stupid as stupid, or what looks stupid as being part of a ploy. Which way was that with Margery? I'm not sure. If it was Varys or Tyrion, I would just assume that it was a ploy, just as I have become used to doing.

I decided before this last episode to just accept the changed LF. But it is a difficult adjustment. It's okay that they changed him, I just don't like being confused by it.

By the way, Varys' motivations sure having not gotten any more revealing than the books. I wonder if they ever will.

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Glad this thread was started - i cringed so bad i hid my head behind my hands during the scene where LF walks in on Cat... i know that LF was there or thereabouts, meddling... but i literally could not believe it when he walked in on her! My jaw hit the floor... i thought that was meant to be a long term mystery for the Starks to puzzle out... i even spent days debating LF's motives on this forum and what the Starks know and the show blew all that out the water in the second season! I literally thought Cat HAD to cut his throat open then and there when she said she knew it was his betrayal that cost Ned his life... and yet she didn't... i can understand the changes in a way.. but still... it was actually quite a schocking experience...

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