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Eggplant Wizard

[BOOK SPOILERS] Littlefinger, is that still you?

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I actually had no problems with Littlefinger's scenes in this episode. I've considered him a seperate character to the books since season 1, he's been written very different the whole time, especially his sense of humour. LF in the books cracks me up. In the show he isn't funny at all, even though they are very capable of writing funny stuff (see: Tyrion).

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Cat: "I've loved you since I was a little boy...." at least it became kind of clear that he may have been toying with her.

My first reaction was almost yelling at the screen that he would never say such a thing... At least he obviously lied to her about Arya.

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Im rolling with the folks who say he just has too much airtime, along with Joff.

Why the haven't shown a single scene for tyrion fortifying the city's defenses or the lannisters being nervous/scared of their precarious position at this point in the war is beyond me. Blackwater should be buily up over the entire season, but instead, they have joff playing with whores and cersei acting like this sane loving mother protecting her psycho child.

I just dont get it. Baelish is fine to me, he's purposefully unpredictible.

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I realize this isn't exactly a "new" complaint, but the changes to Littlefinger are starting to get to me. I thought they wrote him very well in the first season and he was exactly like I thought he'd be: sly and always 15 steps ahead of everybody. He projected confidence and some mystery, you never really knew what to expect from the guy.

I actually disagree. I was complaining about LF in the last season too, because i thought he was very different from the LF i have in my head. But i was basically pooh-poohed.

Then again i seem to be the only person on the internet who thinks even Dinklage's Tyrion acts fairly different then book Tyrion. In my mind this Tyrion is too nice and sanitized while book Tyrion definetely had more edge.

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Why the haven't shown a single scene for tyrion fortifying the city's defenses or the lannisters being nervous/scared of their precarious position at this point in the war is beyond me. Blackwater should be buily up over the entire season, but instead, they have joff playing with whores and cersei acting like this sane loving mother protecting her psycho child.

I think as soon as it is heard that Stannis is on the move, Tyrion will set about making the chain and visit the pyromancers guild.

Not a fan of LF this season but it isn't ruining my enjoyment of the show. But even my non-book reading girlfriend asked me why and how the hell LF managed to jump from KL to Renly's camp like that.

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Im more puzzled over his Christian Bale Batman voice this season

They have changed so much already this season Im just going with it I guess, but he sounds so much different than S1

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I think as soon as it is heard that Stannis is on the move, Tyrion will set about making the chain and visit the pyromancers guild.

Not a fan of LF this season but it isn't ruining my enjoyment of the show. But even my non-book reading girlfriend asked me why and how the hell LF managed to jump from KL to Renly's camp like that.

so they will forge a chain stretching across a gigantic bay in the time it takes stannis to march from the Stormlands.

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so they will forge a chain stretching across a gigantic bay in the time it takes stannis to march from the Stormlands.

Stranger things have happened. Who knows? Perhaps they'll just cut out the chain entirely and have the wildfire be Tyrion's decisive tactical decision.

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HBO is turning a story which was anything but cliche into a cliche soap opera. Every time they introduce a new character on the show you know exactly where that character is headed in the future, it's pretty silly actually. Just proves that Hollywood is Hollywood and is incapable of original thought, they just regurgitate everything they've done in the past. The show only confirms to me personally why I haven't followed any show on television for at least 16 years, it's all mindless crap, lacking any sophistication frankly.

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Then again i seem to be the only person on the internet who thinks even Dinklage's Tyrion acts fairly different then book Tyrion. In my mind this Tyrion is too nice and sanitized while book Tyrion definetely had more edge.

You are not the only one, I agree. TV Tyrion is much nicer and the writers have removed most of the hints in the books that he's a jerk with a mean streak like breaking Maryllion's fingers, dreaming how the whole Vale will be turned into a wasteland by the clansmen he armed, letting Timmett go unpunished for murder in KL and even making a joke about it, etc.

As for LF - they've made him so lacking in self-control and subtlety that I am totally unable to suspend my disbelief and convince myself that his guy has been a master player of the Game of Thrones for years despite his low birth. He goes out of his way to create enemies and make people dislike him for no reason and apparently spends half his time training whores instead of plotting and doing his hob as Master of Coin.

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They're white-washing all the Lannisters except Joffrey who they're just making into the most cartoonish villain I've ever seen.

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The books are good because Martin writes them with the notion that people have some intelligence and are capable of understanding without having things spoon-fed to them. The show is bland because it's written with the notion that people have no intelligence and need to have things clearly spelled out. They introduce Theon in the pilot and promptly have a scene where he refuses to obey Robb, clearly outing him as a future betrayer. The worst part about the scene is that it takes place in the presence of Ned Stark, do we really believe that Ned Stark would stand by and not say a word as his ward refuses to obey his heir? They essentially do the same thing when they introduce Roose Bolton, in his opening scene he is essentially telling Robb that he will torture and flay people if he chooses, regardless of what his King says or thinks about it. Gee, I wonder what the future holds, so much mystery and intrigue...

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I realize this isn't exactly a "new" complaint, but the changes to Littlefinger are starting to get to me. I thought they wrote him very well in the first season and he was exactly like I thought he'd be: sly and always 15 steps ahead of everybody. He projected confidence and some mystery, you never really knew what to expect from the guy. Compare that to this season where he's telling Cat he loves her and almost getting Cersei to kill him. That is not Littlefinger, he wouldn't have tipped his hand. The scenes lack the poise and calculated/cautious maneuvering which is so central to the character. So far we've seen Tyrion play off his greed and lose himself around Cat. This makes him appear to be more of a pawn and less of a player than he was in the first season in particular when it paired him with Varys as two rivals competing for the throne.

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Thoughts? Thoughts on LF in general?

I agree with you.

One thing that annoyed me in LOTR movies and made me hate them was change of characters.

I don't mind much when they omit or add something from the book that can't fit on the screen but I hate when they change characters. And that is what they do with Littlefinger. Instaed of being subtle he is rush and is acting stupid.

LF from the books would never taunt Cersei (or even Margaery).

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The books are good because Martin writes them with the notion that people have some intelligence and are capable of understanding without having things spoon-fed to them. The show is bland because it's written with the notion that people have no intelligence and need to have things clearly spelled out.

TV's a less subtle medium than a novel. One of the most effective techniques in showing Book LF's competence and menace was having other characters internally remark on it to themselves: Tyrion's KL POV's are loaded with Tyrion's mental notes to himself about how sly, subtle, treacherous and dangerous LF is. The reader then takes away the same impression.

On TV these constant remarks - made out loud, as dialogue - about a character without much screen time wouldn't work, and the writers are forced to create scenes for LF to demonstrate that he's treacherous and dangerous as well as to reinforce our familiarity with the character).

I don't necessarily love all the choices they're making with LF, but I understand why they're being made.

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Sure, the power scene makes it seem like he's arrogant. I see that, he thinks he's the man because he got Ned killed. But his scene with Cat doesn't show hubris, it shows vulnerability. If it was an honest admission then he is uncharacteristically broadcasting a weakness - he would be doing something book LF would never have done. Ever. However, if you read it as all part of a larger plan to make Cat think he and the Lannisters were sincere in their offer, then it is within his character.

Well, to be fair, he "outs" himself in the book as well, it's just hidden and referred to obliquely in one of the Cersei chapters in ADWD. Littlefinger asked to marry Sansa after Ned was beheaded, but Cersei et al turned him down because he was too low born. In the TV series he goes for Cat instead, probably to make the later plot with him nicking Sansa more logical to the TV audience.

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I can see where they're going with Littlefinger. Looking at his arc throughout the books, I'm starting to see the narrative sense of punctuating his scenes with him being fast and loose with his thoughts.

Regarding his encounter with Cat,

this is what seeds his uncomfortable fascination with Sansa. He realizes at this point that he'll never have Catelyn back. Sansa is a younger, naive, more beautiful, and more impressionable version of Cat. Littlefinger sees in Sansa a chance to start over again, now that he is a man of position.

Book readers keep whining that Littlefinger is losing his mystique as an unknowable master manipulator, but I'm thinking of his character in terms of the long run, and how non-reading audiences see him. It's fascinating seeing him still slip up and bawl -- after all, he's still a man. Bookfinger seems to have become this archetype, too much of an ideal. Like Cersei in the series, they're adding layers to his character. This is important. When the show reveals the depths of Littlefinger's machinations, they can have these slight character moments that will inform where his motivations come from.

At this point, Littlefinger exposes himself because of hubris.

Book readers know that he basically sparked the war between the Starks and Lannisters, and may have nudged Joffrey to execute Ned. His stumbling about may be interpreted as overconfidence in his own abilities and achievements.

Pride surely commeth before the fall.

I think that Littlefinger's aims were basically destructive, this makes him unpredictable if you think he is rational like all the others, but once you realise that his aims are destructive, he becomes quite predictable.

I would disagree that Littlefinger loved Catelyn. He loved the idea of her, the concept of her as a high status person with a degree of charisma, but her values are inimical to his own, indeed in terms of values Littlefinger's true mate was Lysa, not Cat.

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My only issue with the TV show Littlefinger is that I don't see how it's feasible that somebody hasn't killed him yet. Everybody I watch it with who hasn't read the books also doesn't understand why people are letting him live and hoping that he dies soon.

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That's one of the major plot holes in the tv show. You especially wonder why Varys hasn't done away with him yet, given how they've established Varys as a masterful player of the game. During the first season, the added scenes with Littlefinger and Varys seemed like some of the best additions. However, in retrospect, given how they have developed Littlefinger, they immediately become the most silly. You simply cannot believe that Varys hasn't removed him from the equation in some way given what he knows about Varys comings and goings. They've established Littlefinger as a bumbling fool and it's just laughable that Varys allows his "inconvenience" to persist. Major major plot hole/suspension of disbelief issues there.

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