R+L = J v. 24

[Ser Gerian Galifrey]

I am sad to say that I didn't form the R+L=J theory on my first read through,but my second. And it makes alot of sense to me for a number of reasons.

For one thing, this validates Ned's honor like a credit score of 999. Ned is an honorable guy, and isn't going to just slide it into some woman that isnt his wife while he's gone to war. It makes no sense to me, that this guy dedicates everything he is to being what the world expects of him, just to sire himself a bastard. Plus, we love the guy, if R+L=J than we can love him even more, for not forsaking his vows to Catelyn, and dirtying his good name for what is 'right'

Also, if Jon is a Targ, it explains why Ned taught him how to rule with a level head. Why would Ned teach his bastard son how to govern a body of people if he wasn't a "hidden" heir of some sort? Even if Ned and all the Starks died, the Seven Kingdoms would never accept Neds Bastard as the new Warden of the North.

I may be wrong with this part, but I don't think I remember Ned ever actually saying to Jon. "Your my son," I just always here Ned say that "Jon is a Stark, by blood if not name,"

Idk, I tried to explain why it made so much sense to my mom, but she wasn't having it. She said I was grasping for straws in an attempt to erase the biggest flaw of one of my favorite characters.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

the closest he comes to saying that is "you're a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood." and Im not sure if thats in the books or just the show.

[etu]

Wow, this is a refreshingly new take! One wonders then, what exactly were those "broken promises" that haunted Ned.

In my opinion, one of them would be promising to marry Ashara, which he had to repudiate due to the need to marry Catelyn, fairly directly leading to Ashara going bungee jumping without a rope and leaving Eddard to stare folornly at the edge of the cliff and go "Bugger, there goes my chance of the hottest three some in the North".

I also find it mildly suspicious the fact that the current lord of Starfall is nicknamed Ned. Something happened there. You don't nickname your kid after the dick who caused your sister to jump off a cliff unless there's something more to it.

Anyway, minor divergence aside... the only reason to doubt the R+L = J is just how telegraphed it is. Imo at least.

[Ygrain]

I also find it mildly suspicious the fact that the current lord of Starfall is nicknamed Ned. Something happened there. You don't nickname your kid after the dick who caused your sister to jump off a cliff unless there's something more to it.

This might be a red herring. "Ned" can be used as a nickname for all names starting with Ed-, like Edward, Edwin, or in this case, Edric. It does not necessarily have to be after The Ned.

[etu]

This might be a red herring. "Ned" can be used as a nickname for all names starting with Ed-, like Edward, Edwin, or in this case, Edric. It does not necessarily have to be after The Ned.

Quite possibly. But why not something that doesn't come out as Ned for a nickname? Although it could have been Beric that nicknamed him... *shrugs* Could be either way. But I reckon there's something to the symmetry of him being nicknamed Ned, given the close relationship between the houses... or possibly Martin wanted to leave the option open, and then later said 'Nah'.

[kg1982]

Also, if Jon is a Targ, it explains why Ned taught him how to rule with a level head. Why would Ned teach his bastard son how to govern a body of people if he wasn't a "hidden" heir of some sort? Even if Ned and all the Starks died, the Seven Kingdoms would never accept Neds Bastard as the new Warden of the North.

The Northerners actually would, and they're the ones that matter. That is why Stannis tried to give Jon Winterfell in ASOS. The Northerners love The Ned and his family.

I'm thinking that Jon received a standard noble's education because he was raising the boy as his own son and wouldn't treat him any differently from his true born sons. He wasn't going to support Jon's claim against his friend Robert. He committed treason to save Jon's life, not to make him king.

[Bushido]

Ned actually treated Jon differently,Catelyn notes that Ned was very protective of him.

[Teal'c]

First post - So hey!...been lurking since finishing the books a few weeks ago. Turned on to the books by the HBO series...and am happy to say I picked up on the R + L = J prior to the forums....although I missed the apparently obvious Jon Connington = gay hints...(win some lose some?)

ANYWAYS a lot of people here seem to think that GRRM likes to make prophecies fulfilled by rather mundane means than larger than life events. Could tPtwP simply be exactly as the name says? Assuming R + L = J and "Promise me, Ned" it seems Jon fits the description perfectly...?? People seem to think the promise means a prophecy promises a prince that will be what the realm needs, but maybe it actually describes the circumstances under which this prince was born and technically allowed to live. I didn't see it mentioned before in the few of these threads I took the time to read, but that maybe because there isn't much to it.

Excellent points Budj and welcome. THIS is why it is worthwhile to keep batting this topic around. New ideas come up, and one of us is bound to hit on correct answers to the puzzle. "Promise" may allude to TPTWP AND to promises that Lyanna asked Ned to keep. I think the part of the promise Ned regrets is that he was supposed to eventually tell Jon who he is.

It occurred to me yesterday that the "proof" in Lyanna's tomb might be that she is buried in the Targaryen cloak that she received at her wedding. Apologies if that's not original, but it's a new thought for me.

It's possible for people to look a lot like their aunt or uncle. Also, as others have pointed out, Jon's appearance is indirectly compared to Lyanna's, as Jon is said to look like Arya who is said to look like Lyanna. In all likelihood, all four of these people (Ned, Jon, Arya, and Lyanna) look alike because they share certain distinctive Stark traits, i.e. dark hair, grey eyes, and a long face.

Yes, my sister is the spitting image of my maternal aunt, who is also the spitting image of her paternal uncle. They all three look more like each other than than they do any of their parents or siblings that I have met.

[Eddward Stark]

the closest he comes to saying that is "you're a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood." and Im not sure if thats in the books or just the show.

This was in the HBO show only, but in the book, Ned told Catelyn something similar. I don't have the book on me, but he didn't say Jon is "my son." He said Jon is "my blood."

[Budj]

Teal'c - thanks! As much as I want it to be Dawn the Targ cloak would probably be more likely, haha.

[KnightsOfDany]

Im new to this theory but i like how much sense it makes. Ned falling on the sword to protect the dignity of his sister. It also makes sense that he threw some BS name out to Robert when he asked, Because we all know how much Robert hates Targaryen's let alone one that may have impregnated the love of his life. Ned knowing this probably saved Jon's life from Roberts Wrath if he ever knew the truth

[flinky]

Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

I feel that a lie he has also lived is that he knew about her and the prince. When I tried to see how close they were and why the Reeds brought up the tournament I remembered:

"Lyanna* might have carried a sword, if my father had allowed it."

I feel that the weirwood tree vision where bran thinks to himself that Arya never knocked him down was his father and aunt when they were his age.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Excellent points Budj and welcome. THIS is why it is worthwhile to keep batting this topic around. New ideas come up, and one of us is bound to hit on correct answers to the puzzle. "Promise" may allude to TPTWP AND to promises that Lyanna asked Ned to keep. I think the part of the promise Ned regrets is that he was supposed to eventually tell Jon who he is.

It occurred to me yesterday that the "proof" in Lyanna's tomb might be that she is buried in the Targaryen cloak that she received at her wedding. Apologies if that's not original, but it's a new thought for me.

Yes, my sister is the spitting image of my maternal aunt, who is also the spitting image of her paternal uncle. They all three look more like each other than than they do any of their parents or siblings that I have met.

That would be a nice way to kill two birds with one stone. It would both prove Lyanna as Jon's mother (I sort of feel that by the time Jon or someone else goes into the crypts to see what is there that they will be looking for confirmation or proof, i.e. that the idea that Jon isn't Ned's will have already taken root) and the proof of the marriage that many suspect makes Jon legit. I have complete confidence that GRRM will provide enough proof within the text to prove Jon's legitimacy if it is important to the story, though it is fun to guess how the proof might show itself.

I also like the twist on the idea of the Prince who was Promised ending up as really a prince whom there was a promise about. It would fit nicely with the mundane fulfillments that seem to show up in GRRM's work.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I have complete confidence that GRRM will provide enough proof within the text to prove Jon's legitimacy if it is important to the story, though it is fun to guess how the proof might show itself.

Me too. Everyone's entitled to their opinions, but for me, it's not a matter of, "How will he prove it?" in the sense that he can't, but of, "How will he prove it?" as in, what method will he end up using?

[kephv]

I feel that the weirwood tree vision where bran thinks to himself that Arya never knocked him down was his father and aunt when they were his age.

It was Lyanna and Benjen (Ned's older than either).

[Lady Octarina]

The Northerners actually would, and they're the ones that matter. That is why Stannis tried to give Jon Winterfell in ASOS. The Northerners love The Ned and his family.

I'm thinking that Jon received a standard noble's education because he was raising the boy as his own son and wouldn't treat him any differently from his true born sons. He wasn't going to support Jon's claim against his friend Robert. He committed treason to save Jon's life, not to make him king.

Well, Ser Gerian's observations are correct, Jon didn't receive the regular education a noble kid would, but something closer to the education of a leader (is it ADwD that states something to that effect?). Though I doubt it was because Ned was preparing him to rule; as you said, he would never betray Robert to that extent. Hells, keeping the boy alive and hidden was betray enough! But yes, he received the education of a leader because he was the same age as Robb, and they were close, so it wouldn't make much sense to educate them apart.

Ned actually treated Jon differently,Catelyn notes that Ned was very protective of him.

Can you provide s with a quote, please? I really don't remember that...

But well, that's not necessarily true (though it would make sense for Ned to treat him that way); she has always been jealous of Jon and that mysterious mother of his.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

I don't know if Jon was raised to be a leader, he wad given a noble up bringing, but in GOT when he finds out he is going to be a steward and Sam tells heim he's being groomed to lead jon reflects that ned would often have Robb at his side and in his councils with other lords of the north

[Ser Gerian Galifrey]

Don't get me wrong, im under no delusions that one day Ned was gonna say "Hey Baratheons, Fuck you! Turns out my bastard is really a Targaryen!" I was just thinking he may have been preparing for a possible eventuality, Such as this return of Dany and whatnot.

You know, Dany sweeps across the ocean and smashes the seven kingdoms, and Ned says, "Hey, this guy is your nephew, take care of him,"

But now that i think about it, that doesn't make much sense either, because if she happened to believe the "Usurpers Dog" Jon would have a better claim than her anyways. And that's if she trusts him, I don't think Ned would expect her to trust that Jon is really a Targ, considering he doesn't really look like Rhaegar at all.

Just ignore everything I just said.

[Bushido]

Troubled Whovian,it is in 3rd book,around Karstark incident.

Catelyn observes Robb and the comparing begins.

[Yeade]

While I don't think Ned insists upon Jon being provided much the same education as Robb because he believes there's any possibility Jon's lineage may one day land him on the Iron Throne, it's likely Ned's guilt for perpetuating the lie that Jon's his bastard to the realm at large and Jon himself plays a role in his choice of upbringing for Jon.

If R+L=J proves true, Jon is the legitimate son of the former crown prince of the Seven Kingdoms and a highborn lady of one of the Great Houses. Had events gone differently, he would've been an acknowledged member of the royal family, in the line of succession for the highest seat in all of Westeros. At the very least, he's a trueborn Stark, cousin to Ned and Catelyn's children, and shouldn't be ranked lower in Ned's household than the rest of his blood. Stripping Jon of his birth identity protects his life and prevents others from using him as a pawn in the game of thrones, but it also denies him the status and place that's his by right. I can't imagine Ned, honorable to a fault as he is, being content with this.

So, Ned does what he can to give Jon as many of the privileges he should've had that's still in keeping with his cover. Ned cannot tell Catelyn of R+L=J and rid Jon of the burden of her resentment, but he can encourage his children to treat Jon as their sibling and let Jon learn the lessons of lordship alongside Robb. In Ned's eyes, Jon's entitled to both the affection of his cousins and the schooling of a young nobleman born to rule, even if he can never claim either of his true names, Stark or Targaryen.

On a somewhat related note, one of the aspects I love best about R+L=J is how the theory kind of retroactively adds depth to the characterizations of pivotal figures like Ned and minor details like Jon receiving leadership training nearly equal to Robb's. That's a mark of good writing, IMO.