Bushido Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 KG is very problematic.How long they have been at ToJ? They have broken their vows,they haven't been with Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyMary Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 She might be the only female Stark to have one, but it also seems like it was highly unusual for Brandon to have a statue too, seeing as he never reigned as Lord of Winterfell.I'm really hoping that the details of the crypts turn out to be as important as posters have been speculating. Martin's spent a lot of time describing them and pointing to them in several of the story's most important mysteries. They have an incredible amount of meaning for Bran and Jon, even if they may not have proof of Jon's parentage.Whatever else the crypts end up proving about identity or family secrets, they show the incredibly longevity of Stark rule in the North and I think, maybe symbolize that the Starks will continue to rule in the North, even though it looks bleak for them at this point. Even thought Winterfell was sacked, the crypts sheltered Bran and Rickon from the slaughter so the Starks can continue on.I would like to think there is something in the crypts that will give Jon a clue as to his parentage. In his dreams he's drawn down there despite protesting that he doesn't belong. Maybe what that means at a subconscious level he's being clued in that he's the heir of another House, or that despite being believed a bastard, he will be a Lord of Winterfell or legitimized as a Stark in name and not just blood.It has been mentioned a couple of times (e.g. with the Frey succession) that the heir's sons inherit before the heir's siblings. I don't recall ever being said that the Targs used a different system, only that females couldn't inherit, so I think it can be assumed that the succession was Aerys - Rhaegar - Aegon - Jon - Viserys.Females can inherit before uncles or cousins, but only after brothers. Danaerys is a sister of the heir so she would be last in line: Aerys -Rhaegar-Aegon-Jon-Viserys-Danaerys. With Viserys out of the picture, she's third in line behind Rhaegar's heirs Aegon (if real), and Jon (if legitimate). If Aegon is an imposter and Jon is illegitimate, she's heir by default as the last living Targ, at least under the assumption that Robert was not the rightful King.Of course, none of that matters due to the regime change as a result of war. Aegon the Conquerer had no more (or less) right to rule than Robert did. Danaerys would still have to win back the throne through victory in war, no one is going to hand it to her despite her belief that she's entitled to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphail Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 KG is very problematic.How long they have been at ToJ? They have broken their vows,they haven't been with Aerys.Not true, they thought their brother (Jamie) was protecting Aerys. But when Aerys died, they were duty bound to goto the next in line of succession. This would be Jon.Also, we don't know how long they were at the ToJ.So what's the consensus, did Rhaegar die still believing Aegon to be TPTWP? He had about a year to change his mind. Hey third time's the charm and he was bound to get it right if he kept guessing! And Budj, Jon fulfilling the prophecy because he owes his life to Ned's promise to Lyanna... :bowdown:It's not really clear. Rhaegar was mistaken about the prophecies many times. But from the house of the undying visions it appears he thought Aegon was TPTWP and a third child was necessary - three heads to the dragon. Whether he died thinking Aegon was TPTWP or not is unclear. Either way Jon is all that's left of his line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Ok,Jamie was protecting Aerys. Where they have been? At ToJ? Why? They have no place there since Aerys is in Red Keep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Octarina Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Females can inherit before uncles or cousins, but only after brothers. Danaerys is a sister of the heir so she would be last in line: Aerys -Rhaegar-Aegon-Jon-Viserys-Danaerys. With Viserys out of the picture, she's third in line behind Rhaegar's heirs Aegon (if real), and Jon (if legitimate). If Aegon is an imposter and Jon is illegitimate, she's heir by default as the last living Targ, at least under the assumption that Robert was not the rightful King.Of course, none of that matters due to the regime change as a result of war. Aegon the Conquerer had no more (or less) right to rule than Robert did. Danaerys would still have to win back the throne through victory in war, no one is going to hand it to her despite her belief that she's entitled to it.That's a recurring question in this thread. It seems Targ rules put females as the last in line (consequence of the Dance, wasn't it?), so, technically, it goes like this: Aerys - Rhaegar - Aegon - Jon - Viserys - Robert - Stannis - Renly - Doran Martell - Quentyn - Trystane - Oberyn - Rhaenys - Daenerys and the other girls.Ok,Jamie was protecting Aerys. Where they have been? At ToJ? Why? They have no place there since Aerys is in Red Keep.The KG function is to protect members of the royal family, not just the king. As they were with Rhaegar (and then his unborn and probably legitimate child) and both were princes, they weren't breaking their vows. And they believed the king was protected, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Ok,Jamie was protecting Aerys. Where they have been? At ToJ? Why? They have no place there since Aerys is in Red Keep.We have seen this throughout the series, e.g. with Aerys protecting Myrcella, and through Barristan's PoV, that KG are often assigned to protect the members of the royal family. They may have been assigned to protect Rhaegar by Aerys himself, and in Aerys' absence, Rhaegar would be the highest authority who could in turn assign them to protect his unborn child. Besides, with Aeyrs' paranoia, it is well possible that he wouldn't want to be protected by the KG who were close to Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphail Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Ok,Jamie was protecting Aerys. Where they have been? At ToJ? Why? They have no place there since Aerys is in Red Keep.I don't follow. They have a job to protect the line of succession. Jamie and Prince Lewyn Martell were both in Kingslanding before Lewyn was sent to gather 10,000 Dornish spears and bring them to Rhaegar on the Trident. Semley and Jonothor Darry were sent to rally the remnents of Conningtons army after the Battle of the Bells and joined with Rhaegar. Three, Hightower, Dayne, and Oswell Whent were at the Tower of Joy, where Rhaegar was previously with (assumably) Princess Lyanna while she was giving birth to a royal heir. (It is also assumed they were ordered to stay there by Rhaegar, but that is speculative.)Martell and Darry died on the Trident.Hightwoer, Dayne, and Whent died at the Tower of Joy.Semley and Jamie survived.Some speculate that Dayne is still alive. They suggest that when Ned was saved by Howland Reed, that Reed didn't kill Dayne, but convinced him that Ned meant Jon no harm. I don't believe it, but to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Yes, I don't see the issue with the Kingsguard being at the Tower. The number one rule is, at least one of them must be with the king at all times. And one was: Jaime. And when Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon died — and given how close those deaths were in proximity, I get the feeling that the guys at the Tower didn't know about them until all three had happened — the men's loyalty would have transferred to the new king. That new king, judging by the fact that they stayed at the Tower to a man and made no attempt to get even one of them to Dragonstone, was Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 ...Martell and Darry died on the Trident.Hightwoer, Dayne, and Whent died at the Tower of Joy.Semley and Jamie survived.Some speculate that Dayne is still alive. They suggest that when Ned was saved by Howland Reed, that Reed didn't kill Dayne, but convinced him that Ned meant Jon no harm. I don't believe it, but to each their own.I think Darry is the Elder Brother on the QI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Just to satisfy my curiosity, not that it makes a difference to the plot, if Viserys was alive, is Viserys' claim any stronger since Aerys has died before Jon is born, which I believe did occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They deal with every royal family member,yes,but they first and foremost protect the King.Don't you understand the meaning of Ned's questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphail Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They deal with every royal family member,yes,but they first and foremost protect the King.Don't you understand the meaning of Ned's questions?They are sworn to the King, but if I were to order their priorities King>Line of succession>remaining family.We have seen from Dunk and Egg that they will fight for lower ranking succession members.Just to satisfy my curiosity, not that it makes a difference to the plot, if Viserys was alive, is Viserys' claim any stronger since Aerys has died before Jon is born, which I believe did occur?I don't think so, and I think that is demonstrated by Apple Martini's comments: None of the kingsguard (and arguably the most honorable of them) made an effort to leave Jon for Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They deal with every royal family member,yes,but they first and foremost protect the King.Don't you understand the meaning of Ned's questions?Er, which meaning do you mean? That by naming the places where they are supposed to be while they stubbornly insist that they are still keeping their vows while staying at ToJ, Ned put two and two together and figured out what he would find in the Tower even before he entered it proper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teal'c Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 They are sworn to the King, but if I were to order their priorities King>Line of succession>remaining family.We have seen from Dunk and Egg that they will fight for lower ranking succession members.I don't think so, and I think that is demonstrated by Apple Martini's comments: None of the kingsguard (and arguably the most honorable of them) made an effort to leave Jon for Viserys.And they would know the rules better than we could guess. I get it, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Just to satisfy my curiosity, not that it makes a difference to the plot, if Viserys was alive, is Viserys' claim any stronger since Aerys has died before Jon is born, which I believe did occur?No. If Lyanna was pregnant when Aerys died, which she must have been, her unborn child would be considered the king-in-waiting until he was born, or until he was born dead or born a girl, in which case, only then would the crown shift to Viserys. Similar thing happened in Spain and France, I believe — the king died while the queen was pregnant with the heir. The throne was "vacant" until the queen gave birth.They deal with every royal family member,yes,but they first and foremost protect the King.Don't you understand the meaning of Ned's questions?Yes, I do. Ned's very subtly asking them why they weren't with Rhaegar on the Trident or Aerys in King's Landing or Viserys on Dragonstone. They say that they're right where they're supposed to be. You said it yourself, they protect the king. So if they're still at the Tower, doesn't that mean that Jon's the king now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euphail Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 No. If Lyanna was pregnant when Aerys died, which she must have been, her unborn child would be considered the king-in-waiting until he was born, or until he was born dead or born a girl, in which case, only then would the crown shift to Viserys. Similar thing happened in Spain and France, I believe — the king died while the queen was pregnant with the heir. The throne was "vacant" until the queen gave birth.Would it matter if Jon was born a girl? Wouldn't female Jon still have a better claim to the throne than a brother to the crowned prince? I think specifically of the Karstarks as a reference.ETA: I realize it doesn't matter, I'm just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Would it matter if Jon was born a girl? Wouldn't female Jon still have a better claim to the throne than a brother to the crowned prince? I think specifically of the Karstarks as a reference.ETA: I realize it doesn't matter, I'm just curious.Nope, not in the Targ succession. After the Dance of the Dragons, women could only inherit after every possible male claimant had been exhausted. Dornish law (oldest child first, regardless of gender) and ordinary Westerosi law (sons first, then daughters) doesn't work the same way. If Jon had been born a girl, the crown would've passed to Viserys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg1982 Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Ned, I think, knew what he'd find at the Tower. That's why only seven of Ned's closest friends and retainers went with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first. Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ. They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king. and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushido Posted April 26, 2012 Share Posted April 26, 2012 Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first. Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ. They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king. and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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