R+L = J v. 24

[Teal'c]

Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first.

Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ.

They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king.

and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow.

They were protecting the Crown Prince.

[The guy from the Vale]

Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first.

Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ.

They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king.

and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow.

One of them has to protect the king, and Jaime was with the king. The other members can fulfill other duties that serve the king - leading his armies (like Lewyn Martell at the Trident), or protecting his family members - and all we are arguing is that they were protecting a family member of Aerys at the ToJ.

[Euphail]

Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first.

Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ.

They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king.

and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow.

Members of the Kingsguard are routinely given orders on where to go, who to defend, or what army to lead. A direct example is Martell, who was sent to gather spears from Dorne.

There is speculation that Rhaegar was planning to take the throne from his father (supported by evidence from the text,) and that the Kingsguard at the ToJ supported his plan. Semley directly talks about how Rhaegar had his favorites among the Kingsguard and that he was not privey to Rhaegars secrets. Thus Rhaegar was their King, and they were following orders by staying at the ToJ. (Obviously some conjecture in here)

Further theories suggest that Aerys had ordered them to the ToJ to execute Lyanna, that her bed of blood was from the Kingsguard, but this theory negates a lot of other evidence.

ETA: TheguyfromtheVale got it perfectly.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first.

Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ.

They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king.

and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow.

Rhaegar, I presume, gave them the order to remain at the Tower, which they obeyed. They would have been there before Aerys died, on Rhaegar's orders. Which we know that they would follow unless Aerys gave conflicting orders, and he can't really do that if he doesn't know where they are or thinks that they're already following his orders (like, say, to go find Rhaegar). We don't know what Rhaegar told Aerys the men were doing, so we can't assume that Aerys thought they were being disobedient. Given how Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon all died within a pretty short time span, it's possible that they didn't know about those deaths until they had already all happened. So it's not as if they heard Rhaegar had died and then would have left to go to Aerys. By the time they learned about Rhaegar's death, Aerys too was already dead.

And I am not your "dear."

[Bushido]

I don't trust Varys' talk - if he was indeed thinking for the benefit of the kingdom,he would never point at Rhaegar.

Aerys was MAD. What being a kingsguard means you can find out from their own words,not actions of a mad king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't trust Varys' talk - if he was indeed thinking for the benefit of the kingdom,he would never point at Rhaegar.

Aerys was MAD. What being a kingsguard means you can find out from their own words,not actions of a mad king.

... What?

[Ygrain]

Apple Martini,Jon is the king only after Aerys' death,since Rhaegar'd died first.

Up until that moment,of Aerys' death,they had no business at ToJ.

They heard Aerys is dead. Go to ToJ - that's ok. But,what about the time before that? What they were doing? They weren't protecting the king.

and if they have been at ToJ all the time,that,my dear,is a broken vow.

The KG rule says that at least one of them MUST be with the king, which means the res may be assigned other tasks. Rhaegar is a crown prince, spending the time at a remote location without means to be defended, while the king sits at the seat of his power, within a defended fortress. In this situation, the King does not need all seven KG for his protection, while Rhaegar and later his unborn child need to be protected. If they did not act against a direct order from Aerys, Rhaegar's authority was sufficient to assign them to guard Lyanna and the child

[Bushido]

Lewyn leading the army,and having Elia and kids close,having Lannister beside him - that's all actions of a insane person. Aerys could make his kingsguard dance around,if he wanted to,but doesn't mean that's their duty,their duty is to protect the king.

And that speculations that Rhaegar was working against the king are based on two moments - a gossip that Varys provided for the king and Rhaegar's words that there would be some changes : that could mean many things.

[etu]

Lewyn leading the army,and having Elia and kids close,having Lannister beside him - that's all actions of a insane person. Aerys could make his kingsguard dance around,if he wanted to,but doesn't mean that's their duty,their duty is to protect the king.

And that speculations that Rhaegar was working against the king are based on two moments - a gossip that Varys provided for the king and Rhaegar's words that there would be some changes : that could mean many things.

Their duty is to obey the King. If the King says 'Protect my family' or 'Crush mine enemies', then the Kingsguard goes "Ok" not "Sorry sire, but my vow means I must stay here".

[Bushido]

Fine,let it be your way.

Do you think Elia would be at Red Keep had Aerys been thinking about his family?

[The guy from the Vale]

When he went to Winterfell, Robert Baratheon left four of his King's Guard in King's Landing too. An while King Bob was incompetent, he wasn't insane. The King's Guard have sworn to serve and protect the king, not only protect him. As long as his protection is guaranteed (i.e., at least one KG in the King's presence), the king can have his other KG members do his bidding.

[Bushido]

Good.

So,Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna? Prince that was missing during entire war?

[Euphail]

Good.

So,Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna? Prince that was missing during entire war?

We know from Dunk & Egg that Kingsguard will follow the orders of other royal family members provided that at least 1 of their members is protecting the king.

ETA: Bushido, could you clarify your objection, I'm not quite sure what you're angling at?

[Dragonfish]

Good.

So,Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna? Prince that was missing during entire war?

Not necessarily. He may have ordered them to find Rhaegar, and when they did Rhaegar may have ordered them to stay at the tower and guard Lyanna.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Good.

So,Aerys ordered them to protect Lyanna? Prince that was missing during entire war?

We know from Dunk & Egg that Kingsguard will follow the orders of other royal family members provided that at least 1 of their members is protecting the king.

What Euphail said. Also, it's possible that Aerys gave the three men an order — find Rhaegar — and when they found him, Rhaegar gave them the order to stay at the Tower with Lyanna. Or they could have been with Rhaegar from the beginning, colluding in the Lyanna incident, and Aerys just assumed they were "protecting" him. I don't think Aerys knew where Rhaegar kept Lyanna or gave any orders about Lyanna specifically.

[etu]

Fine,let it be your way.

Do you think Elia would be at Red Keep had Aerys been thinking about his family?

Elia was in the Red Keep as an insurance towards Dorne's continued good behaviour and support.

The Kingsguard were with Rhaegar both to protect him, and to crush the King's enemies; once they're, they're under Rhaegar's authority for reasons already discussed, which allows him to say "Yo, go protect my other wife".

[Ygrain]

We know from Dunk & Egg that Kingsguard will follow the orders of other royal family members provided that at least 1 of their members is protecting the king.

The same from Barristan's PoV, musing on KG's duties in the past, under previous kings (he was Lord Commander, he had access to the White Book)

[Bushido]

Of course Elia was there to secure Dorna was obedient!!!! Is that an action of a caring king? would that kind of king protect his family? Who would say go and protect that mistress that may have given birth?

They were breaking the vows,and Ned's reaction is what is giving direction to that story.

My objection is that you twist the facts to fit your own vision. You should read,not read into.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of course Elia was there to secure Dorna was obedient!!!! Is that an action of a caring king? would that kind of king protect his family? Who would say go and protect that mistress that may have given birth?

They were breaking the vows,and Ned's reaction is what is giving direction to that story.

My objection is that you twist the facts to fit your own vision. You should read,not read into.

What on earth does Aerys keeping Elia as a hostage — which is cruel and petty but ultimately makes sense — have to do with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy? We're not saying that Aerys told the Kingsguard to stay with Lyanna, we're saying Rhaegar did.

[etu]

Of course Elia was there to secure Dorna was obedient!!!! Is that an action of a caring king? would that kind of king protect his family? Who would say go and protect that mistress that may have given birth?

They were breaking the vows,and Ned's reaction is what is giving direction to that story.

My objection is that you twist the facts to fit your own vision. You should read,not read into.

And my objection is that its quite clearly stated that, having been sent to join the army, Rhaegar had the authority to command them to go to the Tower of Joy.