R+L = J v. 24

[Sapphire]

Don’t tell me the neverending thread has come to halt! :P

I know you're being lighthearted here, but someone in the Azor Ahai interpretations thread suggested that "the dragon has three heads" could be read as "the dragon has three crowns." Similarly to how "crowns" can mean "heads" in the Maggy the Frog prophecy to Cersei, "heads" might mean "crowns" here. So if Jon has the wildling "crown," the "crown" of the North (through Robb's will) and the "crown" of the South (by being Rhaegar's last legitimate child), well ...

Ooh, interesting! Would it be too much trouble to get a link?

Going back through the pages cause I'm bored, lol.

Selmy confirmed Rhaegars love of Lyanna, and the way he speaks of it sounds as if it was fairly well known.

I think for all of Rhaegars position, and "fabulousness," he was still a bit of a nerd, and probably didn't know how to hide his feelings not being a naturally deceptive person.

I get the feeling Rhaegar didn't realize he'd fallen for Lyanna until taking a second wife became an option/necessity. I bet he swore up and down to his closests confidants that crowning her at Harrenhal was only to commend her courage and prowess, but inside a tiny part of him also sought out to interact with her again.

As an aside, it would also be interesting to find out, (had Rhaegar won and everyone lived), if Rhaegar as King would then expect Lyanna to act properly as his wife/junior wife, (whatever), and conform as I expect she would be a handful, and not be happy in the confines of Court life.

Didn't Tyrion say that even a Dragon could be ridden, but you could never entirely tame a wolf?

(I forget where I read that, but it seems telling).

I think Lyanna no matter how much she loved Rhaegar, would assert herself and make sure she didn’t end up in a position of higher scrutiny and restriction than she’d be in as Robert’s wife. Rhaegar would be quite the hypocrite denying her the very things that made him take notice of her in the first place. This is where sharing wife duty comes in handy, Elia handles the pr side attending to the ladies at court while Lyanna gets pointers from the Kingsguards at the training yard. There would have to be a grace period where she’d lay low until Aerys kicks the bucket and Rhaegar allows her free rein.

The thing I see differently about the aspect of a "rash," impulsive act is Rhaegars age.

While I totally agree their love is on par with "Romeo and Juliet," I think if it were Lyanna and say Jaimie Lannister, it would feel more like young, impulsive love.

He is a mature, grown man of 23/24- well beyond the age of what is considered "young," so I think his was more of an act of desperate grab for happiness, (I think Rhaegar was the one who gave the TOJ it's name), as much for prophesy and in Rhaegars case, they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

I have often heard the impact that Rhaegar had on Lyanna, but, I would point out the impact Lyanna had on Rhaegar.

He was a romantic, which probably led him to believe certain things, and he most likely had very high ideals about how he wanted his life and Kingdom to be.

And Lyanna Stark, a beautiful "warrior" Maiden from the mythos of the North, with a sense of justice and honor, with no heart for subterfuge, (which he would be surrounded with at Court), would probably seem to him like she stepped from the pages of the books he read as a child.

"and he never knew what true love was until he saw her face..."

Good points about Rhaegar being past an age to rush into an impulsive crush and Lyanna having a big impact on Rhaegar. She’d be willfull and wanting to yield a sword with or without him. Since Rhaegar was withdrawn and only opened up to a lucky few, I see him going through life very matter of factly. Becoming a warrior because he believed himself the PTWP, submitting to his father’s will and forging a political marriage because that’s what highborns do, fathering three dragon heads again for prophecy sake. Somehow I never thought he aspired to romance. And then Lyanna Stark gallops into his life, he realizes there’s something to this love business and hey maybe the dragon making process could be fun too. :leer:

[MyGiantofLannister]

In a Storm of Swords, I just read a few interesting quotes from Stannis around the 1000's.

Stannis to Jon

"You are as bold as a Stark"

"You have your father's looks"

"I know more then you think, Snow"

food for thought.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In a Storm of Swords, I just read a few interesting quotes from Stannis around the 1000's.

Stannis to Jon

"You are as bold as a Stark"

"You have your father's looks"

"I know more then you think, Snow"

food for thought.

In ADWD Stannis also asks, rhetorically, if Ned fathered Jon on "some fishwife." I don't think he knows anything about Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[RhaenysBee]

In a Storm of Swords, I just read a few interesting quotes from Stannis around the 1000's.

Stannis to Jon

"You are as bold as a Stark"

"You have your father's looks"

"I know more then you think, Snow"

food for thought.

Stannis believes he's Azor Ahai reborn.

Stannis heeds Melisandre.

Stannis marched through the snow for month with his host falling like autumn leaves.

Stannis thought the storm lords would declare for him.

Stannis is not the champion of better judgment.

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

Gods be good - I HATE the wait for George to finish this tale!!! I'm a 100% convinced of R+L=J, because I worked it out for myself before I even discovered a forum (I've read an awful lot of mystery novels - lol), and I just refuse to let it go. It works and all the logic is there.

But last night I was re-watching my series 1 DVDs and got to the episode where Benjen meets Jon up on the top of the wall. He gave him this long, searching, paternal look and said: 'I wanted to be here when you saw it for the first time.' I swear to God, I thought: 'Oh, shit! What if the show writers are trying to hint to us that Benjen is Jon's Dad?' Then I was finding a million and one reasons why he can't be, and started to tell myself - nah, Benjen just looks at him like that because he's remembering Lyanna, and perhaps Benjen knows about the Rhaegar affair.

Grrrr - I hate you GRRM. You have written a story that is quickly taking over my life, and I am now analysing every single still of the series, every chapter and scene of the books again and again and again.

My sister was watching the early episodes of series 1 with me (she was doing her best to pay attention this time, bless her) and even she noticed how cagey Ned was in the scene with Robert when the Wylla business came up. I felt vindicated all over again - and then I saw bloody Benjen and his long, lingering look. Damn it!

But maybe we'll be led down many a false path by the show, purely to keep the secret of Jon's parentage going for TV viewers, so I won't relinquish R+L=J without a fight. One thing I do wonder though - if his parentage is so essential, then we MUST surely have another hint in the current series. If not, viewers who are non book readers will perhaps forget that there is a mystery at all. I am wondering if he will chat to Ygritte about not knowing who his mother is? Whatever happens, the show producers need to keep the mystery fresh in viewers' minds.

[Alia of the knife]

Gods be good - I HATE the wait for George to finish this tale!!! I'm a 100% convinced of R+L=J, because I worked it out for myself before I even discovered a forum (I've read an awful lot of mystery novels - lol), and I just refuse to let it go. It works and all the logic is there.

But last night I was re-watching my series 1 DVDs and got to the episode where Benjen meets Jon up on the top of the wall. He gave him this long, searching, paternal look and said: 'I wanted to be here when you saw it for the first time.' I swear to God, I thought: 'Oh, shit! What if the show writers are trying to hint to us that Benjen is Jon's Dad?' Then I was finding a million and one reasons why he can't be, and started to tell myself - nah, Benjen just looks at him like that because he's remembering Lyanna, and perhaps Benjen knows about the Rhaegar affair.

Grrrr - I hate you GRRM. You have written a story that is quickly taking over my life, and I am now analysing every single still of the series, every chapter and scene of the books again and again and again.

My sister was watching the early episodes of series 1 with me (she was doing her best to pay attention this time, bless her) and even she noticed how cagey Ned was in the scene with Robert when the Wylla business came up. I felt vindicated all over again - and then I saw bloody Benjen and his long, lingering look. Damn it!

But maybe we'll be led down many a false path by the show, purely to keep the secret of Jon's parentage going for TV viewers, so I won't relinquish R+L=J without a fight. One thing I do wonder though - if his parentage is so essential, then we MUST surely have another hint in the current series. If not, viewers who are non book readers will perhaps forget that there is a mystery at all. I am wondering if he will chat to Ygritte about not knowing who his mother is? Whatever happens, the show producers need to keep the mystery fresh in viewers' minds.

Many believe, and I subscribe to this, that perhaps Benjen and Lyanna were the closer siblings, (and not in the Targaryen/Lannister sense).

Because of this, Benjen probably knew, and perhaps helped Rhaegar with/and Lyanna, and perhaps feels a certain guilt, or responisbility for what happened to her which is why he took the Black, and Jon would be that last link with Lyanna.

[Dr. Pepper]

The TV show dropped another hint that Jon's parentage is in question.

My sister, who does not read fantasy and has never read the books, and who cannot remember any characters name (not even Tyrion!) on the show called me after this week's airing and asked about Jaime and Catelyn's conversation. She was really excited and said, "Omg, I have an amazing theory. What if Jon isn't Ned's son!?!?" I chuckled a bit and she, someone who doesn't notice anything, noticed that Jaime went on and on about Ned being so honorable that he couldn't have possibly fathered a bastard after wedding Cat.

[Maxpey]

Gods be good - I HATE the wait for George to finish this tale!!! I'm a 100% convinced of R+L=J, because I worked it out for myself before I even discovered a forum (I've read an awful lot of mystery novels - lol), and I just refuse to let it go. It works and all the logic is there.

But last night I was re-watching my series 1 DVDs and got to the episode where Benjen meets Jon up on the top of the wall. He gave him this long, searching, paternal look and said: 'I wanted to be here when you saw it for the first time.' I swear to God, I thought: 'Oh, shit! What if the show writers are trying to hint to us that Benjen is Jon's Dad?' Then I was finding a million and one reasons why he can't be, and started to tell myself - nah, Benjen just looks at him like that because he's remembering Lyanna, and perhaps Benjen knows about the Rhaegar affair.

Grrrr - I hate you GRRM. You have written a story that is quickly taking over my life, and I am now analysing every single still of the series, every chapter and scene of the books again and again and again.

My sister was watching the early episodes of series 1 with me (she was doing her best to pay attention this time, bless her) and even she noticed how cagey Ned was in the scene with Robert when the Wylla business came up. I felt vindicated all over again - and then I saw bloody Benjen and his long, lingering look. Damn it!

But maybe we'll be led down many a false path by the show, purely to keep the secret of Jon's parentage going for TV viewers, so I won't relinquish R+L=J without a fight. One thing I do wonder though - if his parentage is so essential, then we MUST surely have another hint in the current series. If not, viewers who are non book readers will perhaps forget that there is a mystery at all. I am wondering if he will chat to Ygritte about not knowing who his mother is? Whatever happens, the show producers need to keep the mystery fresh in viewers' minds.

Ha! I know exactly what you mean about getting sucked into this story! In the past 6 weeks I have read each of the books and watched each episode of Game of Thrones at least 2x. My girlfriend is getting sick of me talking about the series.

I have to admit that I am not a fan of R + L = J. For personal reasons, I find N + A = J to be more emotionally satisfying. I have re-read sections of each of the books trying to find evidence supporting this theory. Unfortunately for me, the evidence is scant, while the evidence for R + L = J abounds. Let's hope we don't have to wait too long for Winds of Winter!

[Dolores Stark]

Hi everyone!

This is my first post so I'm not sure if we are supposed to make tv show references here, if not, mods please, move/delete post. Also, english is not my first language so... you know.

Anyway, I was watching the last episode and something about Jon's bicker with Ygritte made me kind of sad. When they talk about who's raiding who's land and stuff his last argument is that he is Ned's son. Although I am a strong believer in R+L=J I came to think how sad it is going to be for him when he finds out. Sad is probably an understatement, it will shake his identity to the core. I will love the influence this revelation will have to the bigger story, but poor Jon. Also as people before me already mentioned, I hope he will chose his Stark side over the o so hateful Targ side.

I believe the effect of knowing his true parentage on Jon has been discussed thoroughly, I just felt if I'm ever going to post something here, after years of lurking, it has to be about my beloved Jon. :wub:

[Gnadlaf]

OK, so I have been doing some searching (admittedly not a lot) for some discussion on an idea I've had regarding Jon's parentage and the theories on Azor Ahai, but I can't seem to find anybody talking about it, so I created an account here just so I could ask you folks. Additionally, after some re-reading of the Eddard chapters in GoT, particularly the strange times he thinks about Lyanna and the price the promise cost him, I'm pretty sold that Jon is hers. Now Rhaegar would be the most likely candidate for father in that case, but I wouldn't be all too surprised if it was somebody else, anyway back to the reason I am here.

Now, for the longest time I've been trying to get the "salt and smoke" bit fit with Jon Snow, but all the theories I've come across are a bit of a stretch with something like tears providing the salt, etc. That just seems a bit weak, in my opinion, however I suddenly realized last night, that the color of salt is most often thought of as white, with smoke thought of as black. And conveniently enough that would seem to fit to the white hair of Rhaegar, and the black hair of Lyanna, so being born of salt and smoke could quite simply be referencing the hair color of his parents.

Now I'm sure somebody else out there has been talking about that, and there must be a reason why it hasn't gained much traction, but I searched though this thread and didn't see a mention of it, did a number of basic google searches to no avail.. So what do you guys think.. Could that be the salt and smoke?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

OK, so I have been doing some searching (admittedly not a lot) for some discussion on an idea I've had regarding Jon's parentage and the theories on Azor Ahai, but I can't seem to find anybody talking about it, so I created an account here just so I could ask you folks. Additionally, after some re-reading of the Eddard chapters in GoT, particularly the strange times he thinks about Lyanna and the price the promise cost him, I'm pretty sold that Jon is hers. Now Rhaegar would be the most likely candidate for father in that case, but I wouldn't be all too surprised if it was somebody else, anyway back to the reason I am here.

Now, for the longest time I've been trying to get the "salt and smoke" bit fit with Jon Snow, but all the theories I've come across are a bit of a stretch with something like tears providing the salt, etc. That just seems a bit weak, in my opinion, however I suddenly realized last night, that the color of salt is most often thought of as white, with smoke thought of as black. And conveniently enough that would seem to fit to the white hair of Rhaegar, and the black hair of Lyanna, so being born of salt and smoke could quite simply be referencing the hair color of his parents.

Now I'm sure somebody else out there has been talking about that, and there must be a reason why it hasn't gained much traction, but I searched though this thread and didn't see a mention of it, did a number of basic google searches to no avail.. So what do you guys think.. Could that be the salt and smoke?

Rhaegar's hair was a silvery blonde, not white. And Lyanna's was brown, not black. So I don't think that those refer to the salt and smoke.

There are several possibilities for salt and smoke with Jon.

1. Bowen's tears and the smoking wound.

2. He could be stored (and be reborn) in Castle Black's meat cellars, filled with smoked and salted meat.

3. It could be a bungled interpretation of a visual image. If the prophecy comes from Asshai, would they know what snow looked like, or cold mist? If they didn't, wouldn't snow look like salt and mist look like smoke?

4. Something else as-yet-unseen.

There are a pair of threads on the forum, you can look for them in the search bar, about interpretations of the Azor Ahai prophecy, where the smoke and salt stuff is discussed.

[Gnadlaf]

Well granted the descriptions of Rhaegar's hair color is silvery blonde, but the Targaryens are often referenced as having white hair, so I could forgive just classifying Rhaegar as having white hair. Lyanna's hair should be brown, yes, but the Starks are known to have very dark hair, and I really shouldn't have said black above, as you corrected. It just to me seems to be close enough, so that I could see that potentially being drawn on, but it does seem a bit weak too. It's just really hard to fit the salt and smoke to Jon, as much as I really want to, and I just wanted some extra opinions on that particular branch of the theory, so thanks!

I would love to see all the prophecies be fulfilled by the characters that I like the most, but as much as I want it to be, I know that isn't how Martin's mind works.

I'll search for those threads on the Azor Ahai prophecy so I can have my other questions answered in a more relevant location, hah.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

The TV show dropped another hint that Jon's parentage is in question.

My sister, who does not read fantasy and has never read the books, and who cannot remember any characters name (not even Tyrion!) on the show called me after this week's airing and asked about Jaime and Catelyn's conversation. She was really excited and said, "Omg, I have an amazing theory. What if Jon isn't Ned's son!?!?" I chuckled a bit and she, someone who doesn't notice anything, noticed that Jaime went on and on about Ned being so honorable that he couldn't have possibly fathered a bastard after wedding Cat.

HAHA! I came to this tread to discuss this point specifically! That conversation was AMAZING! I love how they are getting viewers to question the actions of the honorable Ned Stark! :D

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Hi everyone!

This is my first post so I'm not sure if we are supposed to make tv show references here, if not, mods please, move/delete post. Also, english is not my first language so... you know.

Anyway, I was watching the last episode and something about Jon's bicker with Ygritte made me kind of sad. When they talk about who's raiding who's land and stuff his last argument is that he is Ned's son. Although I am a strong believer in R+L=J I came to think how sad it is going to be for him when he finds out. Sad is probably an understatement, it will shake his identity to the core. I will love the influence this revelation will have to the bigger story, but poor Jon. Also as people before me already mentioned, I hope he will chose his Stark side over the o so hateful Targ side.

I believe the effect of knowing his true parentage on Jon has been discussed thoroughly, I just felt if I'm ever going to post something here, after years of lurking, it has to be about my beloved Jon. :wub:

It won't really change who he is, because he will still be a Stack/North-man/descendant of the First Men. I believe that he will feel a sense of relief as stated by "jaqenhghar". Jon will always identify with his Stark side, he is more 'Stark-like' than any other character is the series besides Benjen. I also love the fact that in the TV series he resembles Benjen more than Ned (another clue maybe?) I think your beloved Jon will be just fine. No worries. ;)

[Dolores Stark]

To Tippy and jaqenhghar:

I too think he will feel relief, but I'm not sure it will be so at once. Yes, he didn't know who his mother was, but at least he knew (thought he knew) who his father was, and with all the issues about where he belongs he had some stand in knowing he is Ned's son. I tend to think that his joining the NW was in part motivated by his need to even strengthen that sense of being part of a group, part of a family. Of that I think when I say he will be shaken to the core when he finds out about his true parents. When all that fuss settles down, I'm sure he will benefit from it, personal growth-wise.

[Sasha Steelsong]

To Tippy and jaqenhghar:

I too think he will feel relief, but I'm not sure it will be so at once. Yes, he didn't know who his mother was, but at least he knew (thought he knew) who his father was, and with all the issues about where he belongs he had some stand in knowing he is Ned's son. I tend to think that his joining the NW was in part motivated by his need to even strengthen that sense of being part of a group, part of a family. Of that I think when I say he will be shaken to the core when he finds out about his true parents. When all that fuss settles down, I'm sure he will benefit from it, personal growth-wise.

I agree with this. In the end I think he'll feel relief but I think there will be anger and a sense of betrayal first. Not in the "Uncle Ned should have pressed my claim" sense but just in the "I was lied to my whole life" sense, which at least I would find understandable. I think he will see exactly what Ned put on the line to keep him safe eventually but I'm not expecting that reaction off the bat.

[Euphail]

I agree with this. In the end I think he'll feel relief but I think there will be anger and a sense of betrayal first. Not in the "Uncle Ned should have pressed my claim" sense but just in the "I was lied to my whole life" sense, which at least I would find understandable. I think he will see exactly what Ned put on the line to keep him safe eventually but I'm not expecting that reaction off the bat.

I think he will feel incredibly betrayed, and part of it will be conflicted feelings of betrayal that his Uncle should have pressed his claim and was partially responsible for the death of his real father. I think he will feel rage about how Cat, and Sansa looked down on him. Most of all, I think it will be a real emotional awakening for him. He has always been this sullen boy, repressing anything but self loathing for his position in the world. I think this will truely wake a dragon.

I am most intrested to see what his relationship with Thorne becomes.

[King Doug]

I'm gonna chime in on this identity crisis issue for Jon Snow when he finds out his parentage. I do think Rhaegar and Lyanna are his true parents. And that would mean he is a legitimate son with a claim to the throne. Even if the Targaryens are not the dynastic family anymore, he still has a claim.

However. I think he will forsake that claim and the knowledge of his true parentage. There are plenty of modern day cases with adopted children who learn their adopted parents are not their biological parents. They continue to identify their adopted parents as 'mom and dad.' I think Jon is through his core, a man of the north and a son of Ned Stark. To be honest, I don't know what is going to happen in regards to his vow for the Night's Watch. Whatever transpires after the free-for-all resulting from the assassination attempt, I think Jon will be free of his vows (for whatever reason, there are many theories that would absolve him of his vows but I'm not getting into that).

My only piece of evidence, if you could even call it that, is regarding sigils. The Stark sigil is a gray direwolf, on a field of white. It is common that bastards reverse the colors of their father's sigil, such as Bastard Walder doing that to the Frey sigil or when Daemon Blackfyre reversed the colors of the Targaryen sigil. Reversing the Stark sigil would be a white direwolf on a field of gray. As we all know, Ghost is a white albino direwolf.

I might be looking too much into this, but I think it could be a bit of foreshadowing of what is to come with Jon Snow.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

To Tippy and jaqenhghar:

I too think he will feel relief, but I'm not sure it will be so at once. Yes, he didn't know who his mother was, but at least he knew (thought he knew) who his father was, and with all the issues about where he belongs he had some stand in knowing he is Ned's son. I tend to think that his joining the NW was in part motivated by his need to even strengthen that sense of being part of a group, part of a family. Of that I think when I say he will be shaken to the core when he finds out about his true parents. When all that fuss settles down, I'm sure he will benefit from it, personal growth-wise.

I totally understand where you're coming from, and was only referring to how I feel it will all play out in the end. I do believe that he will feel betrayed, and rightfully so. It will be a lot to handle at first, but once he processes everything, and realizes 'why' everything happened, I think he will be fine. :D

[Serie]

I totally understand where you're coming from, and was only referring to how I feel it will all play out in the end. I do believe that he will feel betrayed, and rightfully so. It will be a lot to handle at first, but once he processes everything, and realizes 'why' everything happened, I think he will be fine. :D

I agree cause I can't imagine Jon flipping out but there's the blood of the dragon... what if the ice dragon wakes up?????