R+L = J v. 24

[Lady Octarina]

But last night I was re-watching my series 1 DVDs and got to the episode where Benjen meets Jon up on the top of the wall. He gave him this long, searching, paternal look and said: 'I wanted to be here when you saw it for the first time.' I swear to God, I thought: 'Oh, shit! What if the show writers are trying to hint to us that Benjen is Jon's Dad?' Then I was finding a million and one reasons why he can't be, and started to tell myself - nah, Benjen just looks at him like that because he's remembering Lyanna, and perhaps Benjen knows about the Rhaegar affair.

In Jon's very first chapter on AGoT, during the feast, there's a similar situation, when Benjen is trying to explain all the complications of joining the Watch at his age:

"You are a boy of fourteen", Benjen said. "Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up."

"I don't care about that!" Jon said hotly.

"You might, if you knew what it meant," Benjen said. "If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son".

Jon felt anger rise inside him. "I'm not your son!"

Benjen Stark stood up. "More's the pity". (...)

But what I can get from this passage is simply the confirmation that Benjen knows who Jon truly is. And I do think it's interesting he seems to be closest to Jon than any of his other nieces and nephews; just pay attention at how little Benjen is mentioned at any of the other Stark kids' POVs, even in recollection. I mean, I know Jon would naturally be more fascinated by him because of the Watch and everything, but barely any mention from the other kids?

So, yes, I think Jon is his favorite nephew because he's the only thing left of Lyanna.

I think he will feel incredibly betrayed, and part of it will be conflicted feelings of betrayal that his Uncle should have pressed his claim and was partially responsible for the death of his real father. I think he will feel rage about how Cat, and Sansa looked down on him. Most of all, I think it will be a real emotional awakening for him. He has always been this sullen boy, repressing anything but self loathing for his position in the world. I think this will truely wake a dragon.

I am most intrested to see what his relationship with Thorne becomes.

I think the big risk here is that this revelation could send him to the Aerys-Viserys-Daenerys line of Targ heritage. Imagine if he truly embraces his arrogant cruel side?! Ugh... but I do think he was prepared enough through his days with Tyrion, Benjen, Aemon, Mormont, Halfhand, Ygritte etc to be a good ruler instead of being ruled by this new found sense of power.

[kg1982]

Jon will be devastated when he finds out about Ned's lie. Because he was lied to his entire life. It will be a huge step for him to recognize what happened and accept it.

[Alia of the knife]

In Jon's very first chapter on AGoT, during the feast, there's a similar situation, when Benjen is trying to explain all the complications of joining the Watch at his age:

But what I can get from this passage is simply the confirmation that Benjen knows who Jon truly is. And I do think it's interesting he seems to be closest to Jon than any of his other nieces and nephews; just pay attention at how little Benjen is mentioned at any of the other Stark kids' POVs, even in recollection. I mean, I know Jon would naturally be more fascinated by him because of the Watch and everything, but barely any mention from the other kids?

So, yes, I think Jon is his favorite nephew because he's the only thing left of Lyanna.

I think the big risk here is that this revelation could send him to the Aerys-Viserys-Daenerys line of Targ heritage. Imagine if he truly embraces his arrogant cruel side?! Ugh... but I do think he was prepared enough through his days with Tyrion, Benjen, Aemon, Mormont, Halfhand, Ygritte etc to be a good ruler instead of being ruled by this new found sense of power.

I wonder if Benjen would have been of a different mind than Ned about Jon claim?

I always read that statement, "and mores the pity," as his way of saying, "if I had raised you, we would have marched on KL by now."

Ned may have been he anomoly in that pack of Brandon, Lyanna, and Benjen.

[IceGal]

I think the big risk here is that this revelation could send him to the Aerys-Viserys-Daenerys line of Targ heritage. Imagine if he truly embraces his arrogant cruel side?! Ugh... but I do think he was prepared enough through his days with Tyrion, Benjen, Aemon, Mormont, Halfhand, Ygritte etc to be a good ruler instead of being ruled by this new found sense of power.

I'm in the R+L=J camp. I think the revelation will be an example of nature vs nurture, with nurture (Stark) winning over nature (Targ) in Jon's case.

[Alia of the knife]

I agree cause I can't imagine Jon flipping out but there's the blood of the dragon... what if the ice dragon wakes up?????

I definitely think the dragon image that Bran saw as he fled a falling Winterfell, is signifigant.

Was what he saw a tangible, physical creature that was awakened and loosed when it's shelter was destroyed?

Or, (and this is most likely).

An optical illusion created by the rising smoke, but nontheless, a foreshadowing event?

[kissdbyfire]

Jon will be devastated when he finds out about Ned's lie. Because he was lied to his entire life. It will be a huge step for him to recognize what happened and accept it.

Agree and disagree. :-)

I think it will be a shock the likes of which he has never even imagined. But I don't think it will take him an awful long time to make peace with the whole thing - including Ned's deception - and just accept it. And embrace the fact that, despite all this, he's a true, bona fide Stark.

:-)

[Serie]

I definitely think the dragon image that Bran saw as he fled a falling Winterfell, is signifigant.

Was what he saw a tangible, physical creature that was awakened and loosed when it's shelter was destroyed?

Or, (and this is most likely).

An optical illusion created by the rising smoke, but nontheless, a foreshadowing event?

exactly my thoughts! and since I find it a bit extravagant to be an actual dragon, for obvious reasons (no one else saw it), I'm lead to believe it meant the "awakening" of a Targaryen.

[TWR]

While I'm certain R+L=J, I'd like it better if Jon really was Ned's bastard by some common girl. R+L=J just seems a little to cliche for GRRM.

As far as the tv shows allusions, I have a buddy who hasn't read any of the books & he asked me a while back "when are they gonna let us know that Jon is Robert & Lyanna's kid?" Now that's a R+L=J I can get behind. :)

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I agree cause I can't imagine Jon flipping out but there's the blood of the dragon... what if the ice dragon wakes up?????

To me, the "awakening" of the Ice Dragon has always referred to Jon learning of his Targaryen parentage.

[Serie]

To me, the "awakening" of the Ice Dragon has always referred to Jon learning of his Targaryen parentage.

well that could be the case :) and by the way, didn't Bran saw the dragon sign over Winterfell nearly at the same time Jon had the dream about the crypts of Winterfell? or I've totally messed up the timeline?

While I'm certain R+L=J, I'd like it better if Jon really was Ned's bastard by some common girl. R+L=J just seems a little to cliche for GRRM.

As far as the tv shows allusions, I have a buddy who hasn't read any of the books & he asked me a while back "when are they gonna let us know that Jon is Robert & Lyanna's kid?" Now that's a R+L=J I can get behind. :)

fair enough BUT:

-54 out of 163 people who have read the books and watched the TV show actually believe that Jon is Ned's Bastard.

-59 out of 109 people who believe that Lyanna is Jon's mother admit that this wasn't their original impression but were led to this theory after reading stuff online.

point is: You have an exceptionally clever buddy your buddy is not alone out there :D I'm also part of the "never thought of it until I got here" people.

The rest of you people, you have exceptionally clever parents/family/friends :D

[kissdbyfire]

To me, the "awakening" of the Ice Dragon has always referred to Jon learning of his Targaryen parentage.

Exactly. I think it's about Jon learning of his Stark and Targaryen lineage, actually. After all, it's an ice (Stark) dragon (Targaryen).

While I'm certain R+L=J, I'd like it better if Jon really was Ned's bastard by some common girl. R+L=J just seems a little to cliche for GRRM.

As far as the tv shows allusions, I have a buddy who hasn't read any of the books & he asked me a while back "when are they gonna let us know that Jon is Robert & Lyanna's kid?" Now that's a R+L=J I can get behind. :)

My mum is convinced of this ^^

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I actually thought he was Robert's and Lyanna's kid waaay back when, until the timeline and Jon not looking like Rober shot a hole in that idea.

[Sasha Steelsong]

While I'm certain R+L=J, I'd like it better if Jon really was Ned's bastard by some common girl. R+L=J just seems a little to cliche for GRRM.

As far as the tv shows allusions, I have a buddy who hasn't read any of the books & he asked me a while back "when are they gonna let us know that Jon is Robert & Lyanna's kid?" Now that's a R+L=J I can get behind. :)

Nope the timeline doesn't work along with much else.

Let's ignore for a moment that Robert was definitely treating Lyanna as the one that got away, i.e. that all indications are that he never got a chance to touch her.

Let's also ignore that we as readers got a pretty big clue that Lyanna wasn't keen on Robert so it makes it unlikely that she would have had some sort of premarital love affair with him.

And finally let's ignore that Jon would be the only one of Roberts bastards not to look like him at all - an apparent genetic impossibility with the Baratheon line in these books it would seem.

If Jon was Robert's son he'd have to be about a year or so older than Robb...as those who had access to Lyanna to get her pregnant after she was taken/left did not include Robert..but that wasn't the case since the boys were both babes when Catelyn arrived at Winterfell with Robb and found Ned and Jon waiting there. The only way for Jon and Robb to be of an age with each other is for Jon and Robb to have been conceived around the same time...ergo around the time of Cat and Ned's wedding in the middle of the war.

[Lady Octarina]

lol

That's interesting, I had no idea the theory that Robert was Jon's father was that popular. It never occurred to me until I started reading these things online, tbh, since from the start the way he idealizes Lyanna made it clear to me that it's unlikely he ever got to even kiss her, let alone sleep with her. Whereas Rhaegar and Lyanna, well... it just sort of always made sense. Not to mention that it would make no sense for Ned to claim the boy as his own if his bff were the father, especially considering that, since they were engaged anyway, Lyanna's shame wouldn't be that big if it was revealed she'd had a child by Robert.

[Alia of the knife]

exactly my thoughts! and since I find it a bit extravagant to be an actual dragon, for obvious reasons (no one else saw it), I'm lead to believe it meant the "awakening" of a Targaryen.

Lol, thats true about no one seeing the dragon but Bran.

I was getting ahead of myself.

I want him to jump on the back of a dragon and burn all the Freys and the Boltens. :devil:

[mynci]

Im new to the forum, but I definitely believe R+L=J; in fact it was obvious to me when I first read GoT but Im blown away that so many others have worked that out as well, and it seems to have become an almost universally accepted theory..

However, Having read the last few pages of this discussion, I want to pose a question: Why is everyone so convinced that GRRM is going to reveal the truth at some point; either to Jon or to the readers?

It seems to me that there is no need for him to do so; theres enough clues for the observant reader to work it out without a definitive statement, and nothing plot-wise to be gained from the truth coming out - or is there? I dont believe Jon will ever sit the iron throne or start a dynasty, that was ruled out when he took the black. What else could be gained by revealing it?

Its also much more in fitting with GRRM's style of narrative to make something like that obvious with subtle clues while foregoing a big 'reveal'. It rewards the observant (read:obsessive) reader with a little nugget of something extra that most people will have missed. To compare and contrast; do you think there will be a big reveal about the truth behind 'Frey Pies'? No... nor do I....

[kissdbyfire]

However, Having read the last few pages of this discussion, I want to pose a question: Why is everyone so convinced that GRRM is going to reveal the truth at some point; either to Jon or to the readers?

It seems to me that there is no need for him to do so; theres enough clues for the observant reader to work it out without a definitive statement, and nothing plot-wise to be gained from the truth coming out - or is there? I dont believe Jon will ever sit the iron throne or start a dynasty, that was ruled out when he took the black. What else could be gained by revealing it?

Hi and welcome!

GRRM has said that Jon's parentage will be revealed eventually.

[Budj]

All this talk of Benjen got me thinking on why he is on the wall. Could it be he helped with the whole Rhaegar taking Lyanna thing? It is still up in the air whether or not it was a kidnapping. Benjen is hinted at being the closest to Lyanna growing up and no one ever mentions why he was sent to the wall.

Aiding her "escape" with Rhaegar plus Robert's stubborness/tunnel vision I could see him not being able to just let that go and either making him choose the wall or death after the war.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

However, Having read the last few pages of this discussion, I want to pose a question: Why is everyone so convinced that GRRM is going to reveal the truth at some point; either to Jon or to the readers?

Hi! We think that because GRRM said he would do it. :) As for why it could be important even if Jon never sits on the Iron Throne — it makes him a trueborn son (in theory one who could hold the North) and it could have implications for the prophecy.

All this talk of Benjen got me thinking on why he is on the wall. Could it be he helped with the whole Rhaegar taking Lyanna thing? It is still up in the air whether or not it was a kidnapping. Benjen is hinted at being the closest to Lyanna growing up and no one ever mentions why he was sent to the wall.

Aiding her "escape" with Rhaegar plus Robert's stubborness/tunnel vision I could see him not being able to just let that go and either making him choose the wall or death after the war.

I actually think this is the case, yes. Or rather, I think he helped her with the Knight of the Laughing Tree thing, and feels guilty over that. It could just be the whole "younger sons serve at the Wall" thing, but I doubt it.

[Walder Waters]

As for why it could be important even if Jon never sits on the Iron Throne — it makes him a trueborn son (in theory one who could hold the North) and it could have implications for the prophecy.

I do not want to start another discussion on the legal definition of a bastard as I have no idea of that. I am just curious: Would it make Jon a member of the Stark or Targaryen dynasty? And do you think Lyanna and Rhaegar got married?