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Angalin

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People keep replying to the threads, that's why there have been so many. If you don't like it or don't think the thread's worth posting in, don't.

And the idea that if this theory is true, it's "bad or lazy writing" is absurd. Bad or lazy writing is having a cheap "gotcha" ending out of nowhere. And I dislike the Targs, too — all the best ones are dead and most of them have been dead for a while. I like Jon despite him being a Targ, not because of it. And I can think of no better way to kick Targ self-importance in the nuts than for Jon to learn he's half-Targ, spit on it and identify instead with the Starks.

why would he want to spit on his Targ heritage? moreover, why wouldn't he embrace it? the only Targ he's ever met was perhaps the most modest, honorable, and sympathetic character in the books.

Many of the Targ kings of the past seem fairly chivalrous and noble. Sure, some have done some terrible things like Maegor, Aegon III, and Aerys himself, but for every Maegor, there's an Egg, Aegon the Conqueror, and Jaehaerys I.

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I do not want to start another discussion on the legal definition of a bastard as I have no idea of that. I am just curious: Would it make Jon a member of the Stark or Targaryen dynasty? And do you think Lyanna and Rhaegar got married?

re 1: He'd be a Targaryen (a Stark in second place but his direwolf is proof enough...also he isn't of the main branch).

re 2: Yes.

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I do not want to start another discussion on the legal definition of a bastard as I have no idea of that. I am just curious: Would it make Jon a member of the Stark or Targaryen dynasty? And do you think Lyanna and Rhaegar got married?

1) If he's trueborn he's part of both inheritance lines - though further down on the Starks. For the Targs he comes before Dany in terms of claims for the Iron Throne b/c he'd be her older brother's child and a boy. Theoretically if Aegon is fake (which seems likely) then Jon is first in line for the throne - or the uncrowned king of Westeros already; if Aegon is real he's second in line until Aegon has kids.

For the Starks it is more complicated because of the potential that Robb's will legitimized him and made him his immediate heir. I have no clue as to how Robb's will would play out against the backdrop of Rickon and Bran being alive, since he thought them dead when he wrote it. Without the will the succession order would be: Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, Jon (as Jon is Lyanna's legit son and none of Ned's other siblings had kids). With the will who knows, Jon might come before Bran and Rickon but I doubt he would take it if he knows either of them are alive.

2) Yes I do.

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I do not want to start another discussion on the legal definition of a bastard as I have no idea of that. I am just curious: Would it make Jon a member of the Stark or Targaryen dynasty? And do you think Lyanna and Rhaegar got married?

Bastard= A child not born to married parents. Plain and simple. A bastard can be legitimized by a king. ;)

Jon would be both a legitimate Stark, and a legitimate Targaryen, because it is believed by most that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, therefore he would be a member of both dynasties.

well that could be the case :) and by the way, didn't Bran saw the dragon sign over Winterfell nearly at the same time Jon had the dream about the crypts of Winterfell? or I've totally messed up the timeline?

I am also confused about the timeline. :blush:

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This has probably been said already, but I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think Aerys is. I think he was concieved during the tournament or Lyanna was brought to King's landing after Rhaegar kidnapped her. I think Rheager was doing he father's bidding all along.

I think Aegon is real, but since Danny, Jon and mst likely Tyrion were sired by Aerys, he does not have a direct claim to the throne.

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This has probably been said already, but I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think Aerys is. I think he was concieved during the tournament or Lyanna was brought to King's landing after Rhaegar kidnapped her. I think Rheager was doing he father's bidding all along.

I think Aegon is real, but since Danny, Jon and mst likely Tyrion were sired by Aerys, he does not have a direct claim to the throne.

Conception during the tournament is impossible due to the timeline, Harrenhall was about a year before the Rebellion. Conception just before the Rebellion or early into its start would still make Jon older than Robb, which would be difficult to mask, since a couple of months in children yo young makes a huge difference. Even if this was the case, though, there is no textual evience I'd know of to support this, whereas it is in contradiction with other information we have, mainly Aerys and Rhaegar not getting along and Rhaegar's disappearance after the "abduction". We know that Rhaegar was not at KL when Brandon arrived and that Aerys sent his men to look for him.

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This has probably been said already, but I dont think Rhaegar is Jon's father. I think Aerys is. I think he was concieved during the tournament or Lyanna was brought to King's landing after Rhaegar kidnapped her. I think Rheager was doing he father's bidding all along.

I think Aegon is real, but since Danny, Jon and mst likely Tyrion were sired by Aerys, he does not have a direct claim to the throne.

Timeline doesn't work for Aerys as the father and Lyanna as the mother since Jon would be about a year and a half older than Robb if that was the case and Catelyn never would have thought that he was conceived after she wed Ned. Whoever is Jon's father had to be with Lyanna around the time Ned was marrying Cat, since Cat conceived Robb then and when she arrived at Winterfell Jon was of an age with Robb.

If Aegon is real he comes first in line before anyone else without question. Inheritance goes through the first born male for the Targs...thus the crown would go to Rhaegar's male children before it went to Rhaegar's male siblings. Ergo if Aegon is real he would come before any of Aerys other boys not after.

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I've looked into this a bit, but I don't think that the Starks and Targs have ever been tied by blood. Which is strange because some Dorne and Baratheons have the blood of the targs. But not many in the North even after hundred of years. Why is that? Maybe the North never truly accepted the Targs, or the Targs though them less than them, I recall stories of the queens visiting the wall. The song of fire and ice has to do with the targs and starks the central houses in the North and South.

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I'm in the R+L=J camp. I think the revelation will be an example of nature vs nurture, with nurture (Stark) winning over nature (Targ) in Jon's case.

Right, in a way Jon would be like a "blank slate" to most of the people who know him. Whatever Targ-like traits he may have could be assumed to be due to "blood of the wolf" or something, and his ability to warg into Ghost shows a mystical connection to the old gods and the North of his Stark Mother. I wonder if the ability to warg is a purely mystical thing or also a genetic thing?

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Right, in a way Jon would be like a "blank slate" to most of the people who know him. Whatever Targ-like traits he may have could be assumed to be due to "blood of the wolf" or something, and his ability to warg into Ghost shows a mystical connection to the old gods and the North of his Stark Mother. I wonder if the ability to warg is a purely mystical thing or also a genetic thing?

That's a good question. An argument can be made that it is hereditary, but I can't think of any evidence to suggest that outside of the Starks. Since warging is supposed to be a very rare power to possess, it would be odd that at least three or four of Ned's kids gained the ability simply by 'luck of the draw,' so to speak. If it turns out that Jon Snow is not Ned's kids but Lyanna's, then there is more evidence showing that it is hereditary and in the Stark line. There is also a rumor out there that the Boltons started flaying men, Starks especially, because they were jealous of their skinchanging.

But there is also evidence that warging is not hereditary only, but also strongly connected to the worship of the old gods. First, we have never heard of someone not connected to the old gods having this ability. Varamyr Six-Skins was obviously connected being North of the Wall. Also the wildling Orell. The most interesting one is Bloodraven. He was a Targaryen bastard, but his mother was a Blackwood. And the Blackwoods are one of the few houses that worship the old gods south of the Neck.

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That's a good question. An argument can be made that it is hereditary, but I can't think of any evidence to suggest that outside of the Starks. Since warging is supposed to be a very rare power to possess, it would be odd that at least three or four of Ned's kids gained the ability simply by 'luck of the draw,' so to speak. If it turns out that Jon Snow is not Ned's kids but Lyanna's, then there is more evidence showing that it is hereditary and in the Stark line. There is also a rumor out there that the Boltons started flaying men, Starks especially, because they were jealous of their skinchanging.

But there is also evidence that warging is not hereditary only, but also strongly connected to the worship of the old gods. First, we have never heard of someone not connected to the old gods having this ability. Varamyr Six-Skins was obviously connected being North of the Wall. Also the wildling Orell. The most interesting one is Bloodraven. He was a Targaryen bastard, but his mother was a Blackwood. And the Blackwoods are one of the few houses that worship the old gods south of the Neck.

this adds to my theory (surely somebody also came to this "conclusion") that Jon is special because he's potentially the only person who can warg into a dragon.

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this adds to my theory (surely somebody also came to this "conclusion") that Jon is special because he's potentially the only person who can warg into a dragon.

I'm not so sure about that. In Varamyr's prologue we learn that the bigger and smarter the animal (or even people) that harder it is to control them. And he was a skilled skinchanger. The only time we've seen Jon warg anything is when he accidentally warged Ghost. And I think the purpose of him doing that was so his soul will go into Ghost when/if dies.

If anyone is going to warg a dragon I see it being Bran or Bloodraven.

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I'm not so sure about that. In Varamyr's prologue we learn that the bigger and smarter the animal (or even people) that harder it is to control them. And he was a skilled skinchanger. The only time we've seen Jon warg anything is when he accidentally warged Ghost. And I think the purpose of him doing that was so his soul will go into Ghost when/if dies.

If anyone is going to warg a dragon I see it being Bran or Bloodraven.

I don't know... I like to believe that it's one of the perks of being a Targaryen warg (well thinking of it, Bloodraven could too)

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I've looked into this a bit, but I don't think that the Starks and Targs have ever been tied by blood. Which is strange because some Dorne and Baratheons have the blood of the targs. But not many in the North even after hundred of years. Why is that? Maybe the North never truly accepted the Targs, or the Targs though them less than them, I recall stories of the queens visiting the wall. The song of fire and ice has to do with the targs and starks the central houses in the North and South.

There are several families who never married into the Targaryens — Tully, Lannister, Greyjoy, Tyrell, Stark. Arryn, Martell and Baratheon did. I don't think either should be taken as "unusual," it just is.

If you're looking for a lack of precedent as a possible plot point, I'd pay more attention to Torrhen Stark kneeling — ensuring that the Targ dragons would never have to face, say, wargs — than I would the families' marriage habits.

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There are several families who never married into the Targaryens — Tully, Lannister, Greyjoy, Tyrell, Stark. Arryn, Martell and Baratheon did. I don't think either should be taken as "unusual," it just is.

If you're looking for a lack of precedent as a possible plot point, I'd pay more attention to Torrhen Stark kneeling — ensuring that the Targ dragons would never have to face, say, wargs — than I would the families' marriage habits.

Yes but there is more precedent of Southerners tying the knot with one another than with Northerner's. The Baratheon's are thought to have and the Martell with Elia, I still think that the is a great divide between the North and South and bridging that gap is the central them of the novels.

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Yes but there is more precedent of Southerners tying the knot with one another than with Northerner's. The Baratheon's are thought to have and the Martell with Elia, I still think that the is a great divide between the North and South and bridging that gap is the central them of the novels.

Yea there is a divide between them. The North was the only kingdom that resisted the Andal invasion, thus being the only region that kept the old gods (with a few exceptions). To me it seems that the North, for the most part, has no interest in intermarrying with southern lords. And many blame Rickard Stark for the North's woes because of his southron ambition.

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