R+L = J v. 24

[Lady Octarina]

^ That's pretty much it.

I'm going to start a drinking game — every time someone posts who says that Jon can't be a Targ because he burned his hand, I'm going to do a shot. But my poor liver might not be able to take it. :(

I'd suggest you also do a shot whenever someone says he can't be a Targ because he looks like Ned :laugh:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'd suggest you also do a shot whenever someone says he can't be a Targ because he looks like Ned :laugh:

Are you trying to kill me?!?!

[King Doug]

Are you trying to kill me?!?!

:cheers:

Then you might not get so frustrated when people don't listen to you. But you're right, you would die in this game. Pretty quickly

[Serie]

:cheers:

Then you might not get so frustrated when people don't listen to you. But you're right, you would die in this game. Pretty quickly

by definition. Its the game of thrones after all.

cheers :D

[King Doug]

by definition. Its the game of thrones after all.

cheers :D

Well played Serie, Well played

[Lady Octarina]

Are you trying to kill me?!?!

If I were trying to kill you I'd suggest you also add the "Ned can't lie" line of thought :devil:

[greygnarl]

If I were trying to kill you I'd suggest you also add the "Ned can't lie" line of thought :devil:

I play a game where I try not to piss myself laughing whenever somebody brings up this argument.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh, I agree, the Martells are as ambitious as the Tyrells or the Lannisters, and keeping their relative importance in the realm through successive marriages to whoever sits the Iron Throne. What I always find odd is that we never see any of them complaining about Rhaegar or the Starks among themselves (I'd never expect them to show their discontent before the realm). But it might be I'm reading too much into it and Martin simply had to occasion or reason to mention their feelings on the subject. :dunno:

That issue has occurred to me too, and I just think that either Martin has not gotten to it yet, or the assumption is that Lyanna is just a different issue, and the Starks weren't putting her forward deliberately to seduce Rhaegar and gain the Starks power as Tywin was with Cersei.

They were angry, (no matter what the truth is), and wanted restitution and justice- which got two of them killed.

And, your correct that perhaps it's known to the Martells that Ned was furious over the death of Elias children, so they just keep neautral where the Starks are concerned.

Of course, look a the Starks now- they're almost in the same boat as the Targaryens. :(

It's interesting that we are actually getting tidbits about Lyanna as evidenced by one of the last chapters in ADWD where Kevan mentioned Lyannas beauty.

[Alia of the knife]

This could be the most cyclical thread/blog I've ever seen.

-Always starts with a recap (obviously), then there is one person who thinks this theory is BS.

-Then 5-6 people team up on that person.

-That person gets defensive and doesn't acknowledge other people's arguments.

-Apple Martini gets frustrated because everything she says is ignored by the non-believer, but others bail her out.

-That person gives up, only after getting everything gets a little personal.

-Then some new people offer up opinions that more often than not have been mentioned already (there are 24 of these after all)

-Then some general discussion.

-Soon someone else who thinks this is BS will speak up and it will start over.

ETA: But it's always fun to watch the non-believer get pounded by everyone

I think it's okay to have a different opinion, and then flesh it out, (or pound the non-believer in a non-hate sort of way). :)

What I DON'T get is the defensiveness, and sometimes outright anger.

It's not that serious.

This is a work of fiction, Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't real, so I don't get the animosity sometimes. :dunno:

[anor278]

Just a quick question that has probably been done to death. Many subscribe to the R+L = J theory - this a very reasonable speculation in the absence of further evidence. If this is true is there any possibility that Jon is legitimate? As far as I know this would require that Rhaegar 'divorce' Elia, and then marry Lyanna (i.e. Rhaegar predeceased Elia and of course any other union on R's part would be bigamous).

Given this, is Jon still a 'Snow' if R is his father?

[Ygrain]

Just a quick question that has probably been done to death. Many subscribe to the R+L = J theory - this a very reasonable speculation in the absence of further evidence. If this is true is there any possibility that Jon is legitimate? As far as I know this would require that Rhaegar 'divorce' Elia, and then marry Lyanna (i.e. Rhaegar predeceased Elia and of course any other union on R's part would be bigamous).

Given this, is Jon still a 'Snow' if R is his father?

Actually, Jon's legitimacy is the basis for the explanation while the three KG stay at the Tower of Joy instead of rushing to Viserys, yet at the same time claiming that they are keeping their vows. If Viserys is king, then at least one of them is bound to be at his side, no matter what Rhaegar's previous orders might have been. Not doing so would be dereliction of duty and definitely would fall under breaking their vows - so, if they stay AND keep their vows, Viserys is not king, and the person who is king is at ToJ. With Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon dead, the only explanation that makes sense is another legitimate son of Rhaegar - and with the Targaryen history of polygamy, aptly combined with the Northern tradition of marrying in front of trees, bigamy would be perfectly legitimate :-)

There is a theory that after the Harrenhall tourney, Lyanna didn't return to Winterfell but stayed with the Whents at Harrenhall, which provided Rhaegar occasions to see her, and the Isle of Face in the middle of Godseye was a convenient location for performing the northern-style marriage.

[The guy from the Vale]

Targaryens practised polygamy in the past, and the presence of the King's Guard at the Tower of Joy suggests that they considered Jon their king.

Even if he wasn't legitimate, though, Robb might have legitimized Jon through his will.

ETA: Ygran beat me to it.

[Independent George]

This is a work of fiction, Rhaegar and Lyanna aren't real, so I don't get the animosity sometimes. :dunno:

I get angry over bad logic. Sometimes it comes from the 'pro' side - for all the evidence, the theory is NOT proven; it fits the known facts better than any other theory, but it is not definitive by any means - but usually, it's the 'anti' side that drives me nuts. I get really frustrated when people refuse to engage the terms of the debate, and go on and on about either irrelevant details, or completely ignore factual evidence in play.

I hesitate to call someone a troll, but it's really hard for me to believe sometimes that certain posters are not deliberately acting dense to get a rise out of people.

[anor278]

@IG & R & valeguy; thanks, I wasn't aware that the Targs had a history of polygamy as well as incest, and that the issue of such unions would/could be considered legitimate. Of course, as it did for the kings of Judah and Israel, polygamy makes succession a real mess. Maybe Jon is neither a Snow nor a 'Fyre'.

[greygnarl]

According to this theory, GRRM was leaving lots of clues in AGOT but when the series got expanded he started to focus more on the events at hand then on foreshadowing or giving tidbits that would push R+L=J along.

Edit: This was in response to the post by Alia of the Vale.

[Ser Tom Tarly]

According to this theory, GRRM was leaving lots of clues in AGOT but when the series got expanded he started to focus more on the events at hand then on foreshadowing or giving tidbits that would push R+L=J along.

Edit: This was in response to the post by Alia of the Vale.

I just recently finished ADwD and I am currently re-reading GoT. I think most of the clues are in the first book but I never really picked up on them in my first read, we learned so much from Ned, he was taken too quick.

[Dragonfish]

Maybe Jon is neither a Snow nor a 'Fyre'.

Just to be clear, the name "Blackfyre" is not a name that all Targ bastards may take. It is the name of a specific Targ bastard (and his descendants) who, after being legitimized by his father on the latter's death bed, attempted to take the Iron Throne from his trueborn brother. Every other Targ bastard will usually be given the typical regional bastard name (e.g. Bittersteel and Bloodraven were both given the name "Rivers", since their mothers were from the Riverlands).

[Lady Octarina]

There is a theory that after the Harrenhall tourney, Lyanna didn't return to Winterfell but stayed with the Whents at Harrenhall, which provided Rhaegar occasions to see her, and the Isle of Face in the middle of Godseye was a convenient location for performing the northern-style marriage.

So he would have married her before they ran away together? Because I've always assumed that only happened in Dorne, though we have no reason to believe there are still those trees down there, so, yeah, I think the Isle of Face makes more sense, though it makes their part in causing the war even less excusable...

[Bucky7588]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum but have been reading a lot of these posts. First of all, let me say that I'm in the middle on the R+L=J theory. One thing I've noticed is that everyone keeps talking about Ned lying to Cat. Lets pretend that Ned did tell Cat...how do you expect her to react? You have your husband, who could very well be killed along with Jon, and who knows who else. I'm not saying thats what happened, I just think that it could be a possible reason for her dislike of Jon, even if Ned told her.

[Lady Octarina]

Hi all, I'm new to the forum but have been reading a lot of these posts. First of all, let me say that I'm in the middle on the R+L=J theory. One thing I've noticed is that everyone keeps talking about Ned lying to Cat. Lets pretend that Ned did tell Cat...how do you expect her to react? You have your husband, who could very well be killed along with Jon, and who knows who else. I'm not saying thats what happened, I just think that it could be a possible reason for her dislike of Jon, even if Ned told her.

Yes, I think it's always possible she would hate Jon anyway for risking her family's life, and that was probably one of the things behind Ned's reasoning for keeping that from her. But, though I'm not much of a Catelyn fan, I like to think she would have pitied him and tried to act as a replacement mother or something - I mean, look at his situation, most of his kin was dead, he had no idea who he was, and, even though he was the "rightful" king, his position as a "bastard" denied his inheriting absolutely anything. I prefer to believe she would have sympathized with his situation, but there's no guarantees that would happen.