R+L = J v. 24

[sagaz]

I think is more of a tragedy that Raeghar and Lyanna fell in love (tragedy in the classic sense). Maybe she liked Robert as a friend of her brother (and her brother really loved him, a bromance as good as it gets) but she wasn't all impressed by his muscles (a maiden dream, thinks Ned) and total macho attitude (fun, sympatethic...but highly on testosterone). I like Ned and Robert's youth stories and how he's portrayed (the best being Mya Stone and how she isn't afraid to fall). When she's bethroted to him...well, he is from a good house, long time friend of her brother -Ned's recalling of the conversation with Lyanna about the rumours of Robert's affairs portrayed her as being a sport- and for him (Robert) being as he is, he's marrying an extension of Ned, like a female Ned and he loves her for that, she's different from the other women he knows.

On the other hand, Raeghar, intelligent, gorgeous, sensitive, plays music, good with the sword and with a crush on you....come on!!! Of course she will go for him!!! and maybe all it take is him impressed by her being the KotLT.

He's married (but he could slip through that), she's bethroted...what to do? I assume that the staged kidnapping going well could function as way to oblige others to accept the match. They dissapear and return toghether claiming that they're in love. everybody will question her maidenhood, her father would demand that Rhaegar take responsibility (look at Robb taking a maidenhood), the bethrotal will be off (if she's not a maiden, what she will offer robert?), and in the end, the Starks have a queen (somewhere in the forum someone made a very good point about the statue in the crypts below winterfell) and everybody's happy. But things gone awry.

(P.S: english is not my native language, please excuse my possible errors :)

[lojzelote]

OK, I just had my mind blown all over again.

This is from the Tower of the Hand essay about R+L=J. I was rereading it again (Dragonfish linked to it in another thread).

So for ... some reason ... I always thought that, when Jon dreams about going down into the crypts in Game of Thrones, the stone kings were the ones telling him that he wasn't a Stark. But no.

You have thought that because in aSoS the roles are reversed.

Either way, the Crypts creep me out.

[lojzelote]

Fair enough.

I do believe that Jon is R+L, I suppose where I differ is whether or not Lyanna was willing, and that she was in love with either Rhaegar, or Robert.

Sometimes I think she was willing, but then sometimes I think not, but, I do think Jon was the outcome.

(I´m not sure if this is allowed. If not, please mods, erase this post.)

Rhaegar-Lyanna is intriguing relationship. Personally, I hope it will be revealed as something different from the usual Grand Romance, even though I believe they are Jon´s parents.

I read one piece of the forbidden literature (banned by GRRM, in case you wonder) in which these two starred. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, he lulled her with him, married her . . . and then he killed her horse because he was afraid that she could change her mind and as the better rider of them two outride him and return home. Then he took her to ToJ where he impregnated her and then left her. He just wanted his saviour child, not her. Her last words were: "Protect him from Robert. Protect him from Rhaegar. Promise me, Ned."

I think it is really interesting take on their relationship. The thing is, that there wouldn´t be anybody who to tell this tale. Probably.

[Alia of the knife]

(I´m not sure if this is allowed. If not, please mods, erase this post.)

Rhaegar-Lyanna is intriguing relationship. Personally, I hope it will be revealed as something different from the usual Grand Romance, even though I believe they are Jon´s parents.

I read one piece of the forbidden literature (banned by GRRM, in case you wonder) in which these two starred. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, he lulled her with him, married her . . . and then he killed her horse because he was afraid that she could change her mind and as the better rider of them two outride him and return home. Then he took her to ToJ where he impregnated her and then left her. He just wanted his saviour child, not her. Her last words were: "Protect him from Robert. Protect him from Rhaegar. Promise me, Ned."

I think it is really interesting take on their relationship. The thing is, that there wouldn´t be anybody who to tell this tale. Probably.

(I´m not sure if this is allowed. If not, please mods, erase this post.)

Rhaegar-Lyanna is intriguing relationship. Personally, I hope it will be revealed as something different from the usual Grand Romance, even though I believe they are Jon´s parents.

I read one piece of the forbidden literature (banned by GRRM, in case you wonder) in which these two starred. Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, he lulled her with him, married her . . . and then he killed her horse because he was afraid that she could change her mind and as the better rider of them two outride him and return home. Then he took her to ToJ where he impregnated her and then left her. He just wanted his saviour child, not her. Her last words were: "Protect him from Robert. Protect him from Rhaegar. Promise me, Ned."

I think it is really interesting take on their relationship. The thing is, that there wouldn´t be anybody who to tell this tale. Probably.

That is different, but it does go in the other extreme of the camp that is completely anti-romance.

They want this cold, cerebral fanatic who goes on a baby-making, prophesy-fulfilling binge, and I don't think thats the case either.

In fact, while prophesy may have been a factor, I think it was a very small one when it came to Lyanna- just important enough to justify doing something he shouldn't have.

While I think Rhaegar was not perfect, and Dany will see him come off the pedastal, I also don't think he was bad either.

I think while there are bad characters that have their moments of redemption, I simply think it's essentially a good man who has his moment of selfishness that shouldn't have cost the Kingdom what it did.

Had Brandon waited upon the counsel of his Father, he would not have put them both in the position of becoming pawns, (though I think Brandon panicked because he did love his sister and was scared for her, and not because he's "stupid").

And had Robert been like any other man in the Kingdom and backed off Lyanna when the Crown Prince showed an interest in her, marrying someone else like any other man would have, his children probably would have gotten a Targaryen Prince, or Princess, for a mate, and he more land.

Same goes for the Starks.

Ned would have gotten his own lands beyond Winterfell, and Benjen may have become a KG.

The Martells would still have one of their own as King of the Seven Kingdoms one day, even if Rhaegar repudiated Elia due to her inability to provide more heirs, and she would be free to marry for love and would have lived.

But everything spun out of control.

Watch Dany closely, and you'll probably see a bit of a shadow of Rhaegar in her actions,(i.e., good intentions with bad outcomes), just as Arya acts as a template for Lyanna at times.

Selmy confirmed Rhaegars love of Lyanna, and the way he speaks of it sounds as if it was fairly well known.

I think for all of Rhaegars position, and "fabulousness," he was still a bit of a nerd, and probably didn't know how to hide his feelings not being a naturally deceptive person.

He may not have had any intentions to hurt his wife, or shame her, but he just couldn't help it.

And I think the silence on Lyanna even from Rhaegars faction, and the lack of any criticism of her from that faction seems to point to the fact that she must have comported her self with some dignity,certainly not scandelous, or else that society would be all too willing to brand Lyanna a Westerosi Gezebel who took the Prince from his wife and children.

I've never doubted they may have loved each other, but I believe that she would have been conflicted about it, and not entirely willing.

[Alia of the knife]

I think is more of a tragedy that Raeghar and Lyanna fell in love (tragedy in the classic sense). Maybe she liked Robert as a friend of her brother (and her brother really loved him, a bromance as good as it gets) but she wasn't all impressed by his muscles (a maiden dream, thinks Ned) and total macho attitude (fun, sympatethic...but highly on testosterone). I like Ned and Robert's youth stories and how he's portrayed (the best being Mya Stone and how she isn't afraid to fall). When she's bethroted to him...well, he is from a good house, long time friend of her brother -Ned's recalling of the conversation with Lyanna about the rumours of Robert's affairs portrayed her as being a sport- and for him (Robert) being as he is, he's marrying an extension of Ned, like a female Ned and he loves her for that, she's different from the other women he knows.

On the other hand, Raeghar, intelligent, gorgeous, sensitive, plays music, good with the sword and with a crush on you....come on!!! Of course she will go for him!!! and maybe all it take is him impressed by her being the KotLT.

He's married (but he could slip through that), she's bethroted...what to do? I assume that the staged kidnapping going well could function as way to oblige others to accept the match. They dissapear and return toghether claiming that they're in love. everybody will question her maidenhood, her father would demand that Rhaegar take responsibility (look at Robb taking a maidenhood), the bethrotal will be off (if she's not a maiden, what she will offer robert?), and in the end, the Starks have a queen (somewhere in the forum someone made a very good point about the statue in the crypts below winterfell) and everybody's happy. But things gone awry.

(P.S: english is not my native language, please excuse my possible errors :)

Your post was just fine, I doubt that I could say what you did in your language.

But, where we differ on Rhaegar- I think Lyanna would slam his harp in the door. :P

[Alia of the knife]

I still think her disappointment was over the institution and having to go along with the farce, not over her feelings for Robert specifically lol But that might just be because I despise Robert to such an extent that I really can't believe someone like Lyanna would fall for him. Anyway, five or ten years more and we'll learn the truth on this matter. :cool4:

And the taking her at swordpoint... well, it could always mean she ran away with Rhaegar and, when her father's men went after her, Rhaegar's men fought them, not necessarily with R+L watching the fight.

And I doubt Ned doesn't reflect on Rhaegar over the years; it would be nearly impossible with that constant reminder of whatever Lyanna's story with him was under his roof.

I'm not a fan of Robert either, but I just approach that with caution too, and as far as Ned goes, I think he's still a bit of an enigma, and will end up out-varying Varys at the end of the day when everyone thought he was so simple.

At swordpoint is never a good sign.

Whatever was supposed to happen didn't, and it got out of hand, so I'd swear I'd planned it myself, because R&L have just my kind of luck.

And yes, by the time we get answers and a resolution, I will probably have forgotten what the story was about to begin with.

I hate to wait, and will have been on this board so long looking for answers that I won't be able to separate fan theory from Martins work. :wacko:

[Eira Seren]

And yes, by the time we get answers and a resolution, I will probably have forgotten what the story was about to begin with.

I hate to wait, and will have been on this board so long looking for answers that I won't be able to separate fan theory from Martins work. :wacko:

YEP!

[lojzelote]

That is different, but it does go in the other extreme of the camp that is completely anti-romance.

They want this cold, cerebral fanatic who goes on a baby-making, prophesy-fulfilling binge, and I don't think thats the case either.

In fact, while prophesy may have been a factor, I think it was a very small one when it came to Lyanna- just important enough to justify doing something he shouldn't have.

While I think Rhaegar was not perfect, and Dany will see him come off the pedastal, I also don't think he was bad either.

I think while there are bad characters that have their moments of redemption, I simply think it's essentially a good man who has his moment of selfishness that shouldn't have cost the Kingdom what it did.

Had Brandon waited upon the counsel of his Father, he would not have put them both in the position of becoming pawns, (though I think Brandon panicked because he did love his sister and was scared for her, and not because he's "stupid").

And had Robert been like any other man in the Kingdom and backed off Lyanna when the Crown Prince showed an interest in her, marrying someone else like any other man would have, his children probably would have gotten a Targaryen Prince, or Princess, for a mate, and he more land.

Same goes for the Starks.

Ned would have gotten his own lands beyond Winterfell, and Benjen may have become a KG.

The Martells would still have one of their own as King of the Seven Kingdoms one day, even if Rhaegar repudiated Elia due to her inability to provide more heirs, and she would be free to marry for love and would have lived.

But everything spun out of control.

Watch Dany closely, and you'll probably see a bit of a shadow of Rhaegar in her actions,(i.e., good intentions with bad outcomes), just as Arya acts as a template for Lyanna at times.

Selmy confirmed Rhaegars love of Lyanna, and the way he speaks of it sounds as if it was fairly well known.

I think for all of Rhaegars position, and "fabulousness," he was still a bit of a nerd, and probably didn't know how to hide his feelings not being a naturally deceptive person.

He may not have had any intentions to hurt his wife, or shame her, but he just couldn't help it.

And I think the silence on Lyanna even from Rhaegars faction, and the lack of any criticism of her from that faction seems to point to the fact that she must have comported her self with some dignity,certainly not scandelous, or else that society would be all too willing to brand Lyanna a Westerosi Gezebel who took the Prince from his wife and children.

I've never doubted they may have loved each other, but I believe that she would have been conflicted about it, and not entirely willing.

Oh, I don´t think that that scenario is the way it all really happened, but I found it a great twist on the usual "hero´s parents were two beautiful, brave, intelligent and kind people and theirs was the One True Love". Also, Rhaegar wasn´t portrayed as a rapist, he never forced himself on her, he just bored her with his talk about the world saving so long that she gave in just to get rid of him. ;)

Personally, I imagine Lyanna more like Sansa and Arya in one person than as the first coming of Arya if you know what I mean. Not that I think that Arya will be like "kisses are eeeww" forever, but I just can´t imagine her crying because some silver-haired dude plays sad songs on his harp. Ever.

[sagaz]

Personally, I imagine Lyanna more like Sansa and Arya in one person than as the first coming of Arya if you know what I mean. Not that I think that Arya will be like "kisses are eeeww" forever, but I just can´t imagine her crying because some silver-haired dude plays sad songs on his harp. Ever.

But, where we differ on Rhaegar- I think Lyanna would slammed his harp in the door. :P

hahaha!!! Maybe that's the sort of things that he likes :)

[Alia of the knife]

Oh, I don´t think that that scenario is the way it all really happened, but I found it a great twist on the usual "hero´s parents were two beautiful, brave, intelligent and kind people and theirs was the One True Love". Also, Rhaegar wasn´t portrayed as a rapist, he never forced himself on her, he just bored her with his talk about the world saving so long that she gave in just to get rid of him. ;)

Personally, I imagine Lyanna more like Sansa and Arya in one person than as the first coming of Arya if you know what I mean. Not that I think that Arya will be like "kisses are eeeww" forever, but I just can´t imagine her crying because some silver-haired dude plays sad songs on his harp. Ever.

I hope I didn't come off too snarky, but essentially my point is that I think their relationship was complicated at the same time the reasons for their love was not.

And that isn't a bad point about Lyanna being a hybrid of both Sansa and Arya, but where I differ is I tend to think that Sansa was more of a reflection of her Southern Mother, Cat and those genteel influences whereas Arya is just wild and is resistant to Cats attempts. I also think one can be soulful without being sappy, and I see Arya as soulful person, but she isn't comfortable with it just as I imagine Lyanna wouldn't be, so she pours wine on Benjens head to reestablish herself.

Lyanna had a better life than Arya because of the ensuing trauma, but Lyanna also lost her Mother at a young age, and was raised primarily by men.

They also appear to hold only to the old gods, so probably no Septa for Lyanna- She probably had a Maesters education.

(Having lost my own mom at a young age, and being raised by my dad, they really don't do "frills," lol. I mean I had nice things, and didn't want for anything, but he just didn't have time for the feminine niceties, especially as a teen).

So, I tend to think that Lyanna was a fairly wild girl, and probably dreamed of being a Hedge Knight, rather than a Princess, or anybodys wife- at least until real life closed in on her.

hahaha!!! Maybe that's the sort of things that he likes :)

I do think there is actually something to that, and that she wore the pants in that relationship. ^_^

[Lykos]

I can´t remember right now. Did Lyanna´s mother die giving birth to Benjen?

[Dragonfish]

I can´t remember right now. Did Lyanna´s mother die giving birth to Benjen?

We don't know when or how Lyanna's mother died.

[lojzelote]

I hope I didn't come off too snarky, but essentially my point is that I think their relationship was complicated at the same time the reasons for their love was not.

And that isn't a bad point about Lyanna being a hybrid of both Sansa and Arya, but where I differ is I tend to think that Sansa was more of a reflection of her Southern Mother, Cat and those genteel influences whereas Arya is just wild and is resistant to Cats attempts. I also think one can be soulful without being sappy, and I see Arya as soulful person, but she isn't comfortable with it just as I imagine Lyanna wouldn't be, so she pours wine on Benjens head to reestablish herself.

Lyanna had a better life than Arya because of the ensuing trauma, but Lyanna also lost her Mother at a young age, and was raised primarily by men.

They also appear to hold only to the old gods, so probably no Septa for Lyanna- She probably had a Maesters education.

(Having lost my own mom at a young age, and being raised by my dad, they really don't do "frills," lol. I mean I had nice things, and didn't want for anything, but he just didn't have time for the feminine niceties, especially as a teen).

So, I tend to think that Lyanna was a fairly wild girl, and probably dreamed of being a Hedge Knight, rather than a Princess, or anybodys wife- at least until real life closed in on her.

I do think there is actually something to that, and that she wore the pants in that relationship. ^_^

Don´t worry, you came off as a very nice person. :)

Truth be told, my head-cannon on Lyanna is very bountiful.

I have always imagined as the only female in the family (it certainly seems that her mother wasn´t around since the children´s early age), at that without a septa (I tend to think that Septa Mordane was Catelyn´s invention. Also, if memory serves me right, we´ve heard no mention of a septa in other noble Northern houses, although I think that the Manderly girls have one as the Manderlys come from the Reach), whose only authority was her father (and perhaps Old Nan), who - always so stern with his sons - didn´t know how to treat his only daughter, so he let her "run with the boys" and spoiled her just a little. Besides him there was her bold brother Brandon, who probably teased her all the time, and the quiet brother Ned, who was teased by her (mainly about the girls :)), then there was that annoying child, Benjen, who was the only brother fought back when she smacked him. ;) Lyanna had her father and two older brothers wrapped around her little finger and felt fairly confident about herself (not like Arya).

I imagine that Lyanna, growing up around all those men and without notable female influence/ a mother figure, was sharper around the edges than your average noblewoman. She loved to race on the horses, and - as she was always comparing herself to her brothers - she wanted to learn how to fight, too. But still, she was slowly growing into a young woman, and with that came the desire to look pretty (to be viewed as desirable in other words) and her attitude to the men and romance changed. We know that she cried over Rhaegar´s sad song, so she couldn´t be all no-nonsence and matter-of-fact girl. She seemed to have had a fairly romantic soul to me.

Somewhere along the way, she found her berothed Robert Baratheon sadly lacking. Her father, who usually bended to her will easily if she didn´t demand any extremity (to take a part in a swordfight) said a clear no to her: she will obey and honour the marriage contract. But Lyanna, always trying to be equal to her brothers in everything, wasn´t content with the idea that as a woman she was going to be sold as a cow to a man she didn´t love and who would probably shame her at every turn. And then she fell in love with Rhaegar Targaryen . . .

That´s my take on it anyways. It will certainly change in the future, when further details will revealed. :drool:

[Budj]

--

I agree with this. And just because she was "taken at sword point" doesn't necessarily "she" was taken by sword point, but wherever she was / whomever was holding her (as I'm assuming she was to be kept safe there) had succumb to force in order to allow her to leave with Rhaegar.

[Alia of the knife]

Don´t worry, you came off as a very nice person. :)

Truth be told, my head-cannon on Lyanna is very bountiful.

I have always imagined as the only female in the family (it certainly seems that her mother wasn´t around since the children´s early age), at that without a septa (I tend to think that Septa Mordane was Catelyn´s invention. Also, if memory serves me right, we´ve heard no mention of a septa in other noble Northern houses, although I think that the Manderly girls have one as the Manderlys come from the Reach), whose only authority was her father (and perhaps Old Nan), who - always so stern with his sons - didn´t know how to treat his only daughter, so let her "run with the boys" and spoiled her just a little. Besides him there was her bold brother Brandon, who probably teased her all the time, and the quiet brother Ned, who was teased by her (mainly about the girls :)), then there was that annoying child, Benjen, who was the only brother fought back when she smacked him. ;) Lyanna had her father and two older brothers wrapped around her little finger and felt fairly confident about herself (not like Arya).

I imagine that Lyanna, growing up around all those men and without notable female influence/ a mother figure, was sharper around the edges than your average noblewoman. She loved to race on the horses, and - as she was always comparing herself to her brothers - she wanted to learn how to fight, too. But still, she was slowly growing into a young woman, and with that came the desire to look pretty (to be viewed as desirable in other words) and her attitude to the men and romance changed. We know that she cried over Rhaegar´s sad song, so she couldn´t be all no-nonsence and matter-of-fact girl. She seemed to have had a fairly romantic soul to me.

Somewhere along the way, she found her berothed Robert Baratheon sadly lacking. Her father, who usually bended to her will easily if she didn´t demand any extremity (to take a part in a swordfight) said a clear no to her: she will obey and honour the marriage contract. But Lyanna, always trying to be equal to her brothers in everything, wasn´t content with the idea that as a woman she was going to be sold as a cow to a man she didn´t love and who would probably shame her at every turn. And then she fell in love with Rhaegar Targaryen . . .

That´s my take on it anyways. It will certainly change in the future, when further details will revealed. :drool:

Good points.

And maybe I shouldn't do this, but I suppose I view her through my own upbringing.

As I said, my mom died when I was young too, and my Dad raised me, and while my Aunt was a great role model, my Father had the greatest impact.

Anyway, Lyanna probably did have a natural confidence around men, in the sense she was not a flirt, or even a natural temptress, but could probably meet men on their level, thus in turn making them comfortable, and able to connect more with her.

(Of course it depends too on the type of man- Robert after marrying her would most likely have double standards and want her to tow the line whereas a Rhaegar, a Jaimie, or an Arthur Dayne would be more accepting of her ways).

Who knows, she may not even have known Rhaegar was falling for her, because they perhaps developed a natural intimacy and she treated him like a person/friend, rather than the Crown Prince.

She may not have recognized she was falling for him, and if she did, she may have denied to herself.

Also, Rhaegar most likely was used to the women/girls at court who were just waiting for Elia to die and take her place, (I imagine that while it was not overt, ambitious Fathers other than Tywin were putting their girls forward too).

And I think some of the most beautiful women in Westeros were most likely at court, and he was used to that as well, so it makes sense that there was something more to Lyanna than just another pretty face, and if most of these women were coquettes and simpered around the Keep,Lyanna boldly telling him why she fought for Reeds honor, (if she was the KotLT), and that she'd do it again, was probably refreshing.

For Lyanna, she was just fortunate that Rhaegar was not a Targaryen like Viserys, or an Aerion Brightflame, or she most likely would have been raped right there, and then turned over to his Father for death.

As an aside, it would also be interesting to find out, (had Rhaegar won and everyone lived), if Rhaegar as King would then expect Lyanna to act properly as his wife/junior wife, (whatever), and conform as I expect she would be a handful, and not be happy in the confines of Court life.

Didn't Tyrion say that even a Dragon could be ridden, but you could never entirely tame a wolf?

(I forget where I read that, but it seems telling).

[Sofia Aillard]

I promise I'll read every post in this thread... But while I'm doing it, can someone please tell me about the Parris' "GRRM isn't that obvious" in regards to the R+L=J theory?

I read about it here (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/4093-jon-is-not-a-targaryen/) but couldn't find anything on the internet!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I promise I'll read every post in this thread... But while I'm doing it, can someone please tell me about the Parris' "GRRM isn't that obvious" in regards to the R+L=J theory?

I read about it here (http://asoiaf.wester...ot-a-targaryen/) but couldn't find anything on the internet!

I don't know that much about the Parris quote, except that there's disagreement about what was actually said — that it wasn't, "George wouldn't be that obvious" and was actually "Oh is it that obvious?" Not dismissing the solution, but rather showing wry wit that it had been figured out.

Personally, I think the "obviousness" of this is way, way overblown. It has yet to be discussed outright anywhere in the book, while Ned has, by my count, fathered Jon on Wylla, Ashara and some fisherman's daughter. Surely all three of those things are much more "obvious" than Rhaegar and Lyanna? For every person I know who did get it on their own, I can think of maybe five or six more who had no idea, and took Jon's parentage at face value. People like us on here — and we're not representative of most fans, who follow it much more casually, I imagine — can trick themselves into thinking it's obvious, because they've aggregated clues and talked about it for years on end. But without that aggregation, most "clues" are hundreds of pages and multiple books apart.

The showrunners of the HBO series also said that when they made the pitch to Martin, he asked them who they thought Jon's mother was and they guessed right, and that was a large reason he gave the go-ahead for the show. I can't think of them guessing Wylla, Ashara or a fisherman's daughter and that being the "correct" answer, especially because they either insinuated or said outright (can't recall) that the correct solution isn't in the books.

[Lady from Yi Ti]

For what it's worth, when I was reading the books I just thought that the hints pointing toward Wylla, Ashara etc were a bit fishy, because I couldn't for the life of me understand why Ned was so squirrelly about the whole thing.

I didn't immediately make the leap to R+L=J until I read about it online (though I did jump on the boards halfway through GoT, curiosity and imaptience heh).

[Sofia Aillard]

I don't know that much about the Parris quote, except that there's disagreement about what was actually said — that it wasn't, "George wouldn't be that obvious" and was actually "Oh is it that obvious?" Not dismissing the solution, but rather showing wry wit that it had been figured out.

Personally, I think the "obviousness" of this is way, way overblown. It has yet to be discussed outright anywhere in the book, while Ned has, by my count, fathered Jon on Wylla, Ashara and some fisherman's daughter. Surely all three of those things are much more "obvious" than Rhaegar and Lyanna? For every person I know who did get it on their own, I can think of maybe five or six more who had no idea, and took Jon's parentage at face value. People like us on here — and we're not representative of most fans, who follow it much more casually, I imagine — can trick themselves into thinking it's obvious, because they've aggregated clues and talked about it for years on end. But without that aggregation, most "clues" are hundreds of pages and multiple books apart.

The showrunners of the HBO series also said that when they made the pitch to Martin, he asked them who they thought Jon's mother was and they guessed right, and that was a large reason he gave the go-ahead for the show. I can't think of them guessing Wylla, Ashara or a fisherman's daughter and that being the "correct" answer, especially because they either insinuated or said outright (can't recall) that the correct solution isn't in the books.

Main thing I love abut this (and all the others) forum is that people actually keep record of what Martin (and Parris, and Dan and David and...) says! PLEASE tell me where to find that one of Dan and David's!!!??? Still can't find Parris exact quote... If I ever find it, I'll post here.

Well, I'm enough of a woman to own that I didn't had the slightest idea of the R+L=J theory! I mean, I got up until "uhhhh don't think his father is Ned." I even got a whole theory of Robert and Lyanna, but that was it! (oh please, keep in mind my books are translated, and for that, I missed a loooot of clues)

And to be honest, I really think that a bunch of people who say that R+L=J is obvious DIDN'T get by themselves! Not that I think I'm smarter then anyone, (like if I didn't get, no one would type of thing), I just think people tend to hide a lot behind screens... It is really easy to slip into one (better) persona while having Google beside you!

-You know nothing, Sofia.

-Yeah... But I'm willing to learn!

Thanks Apple, you are a true dear!

[Alia of the knife]

++

I promise I'll read every post in this thread... But while I'm doing it, can someone please tell me about the Parris' "GRRM isn't that obvious" in regards to the R+L=J theory?

I read about it here (http://asoiaf.wester...ot-a-targaryen/) but couldn't find anything on the internet!

I think if there had been something more substantial to what she said, it would have been referenced more often.

I suppose it is a possibility that Jon is not R +L, but it is the theory that makes the most logical sense, and it would seem to be bending over backwards for it not to be R+L.

I know I didn't get it AT ALL until I googled his parentage, and it led me here.

We are not the casual fan. :wacko:

I'm here because I need answers and resolution in an almost unhealthy way, :wideeyed: and sometimes wished I'd not gotten into this series until it was done and finished.

Sometimes I even read the ending of a book just to see how horrible it is, and if is horrible, I don't get into the series.

Martin and HBO tricked me. :angry2:

(Okay, that was a little dramatic, but all joking aside).......

If Jon is not R+L, there is still a child of theirs out there somewhere that may end up suprising us, but it would just be clumsy I think going into book six.

Unless Lyanna contracted some weird Dornish desease that makes you feverish, and causes you to bleed, the description of the way she died is childbirth, so, I'm still going with R+L=J