R+L = J v. 24

[The guy from the Vale]

If Jon is legitimate, he would inherit after Aegon but before Dany.

you're totally right.

that's what you get when you're writing faster than you think... and then fail to double-ckeck. It's Jon or Aegon, of course.

[DarkSnow]

lets all hope Sam finds some paper in the Citadel that states Jon's legitimacy as the heir to the throne.

[RhaenysBee]

I was thinking along the same lines as theguyfromtheVale here. Robert never admitted to have his claim based on right of conquest, choosing instead to justify it based on his Targaryen ancestry, so, technically, the Baratheon dynasty substituted the Targ but depending on it to exist. I don't think it's ever stated if they had any male cousin on the Baratheon side who's still alive. Going with the hypothesis that there isn't, and that Stannis doesn't legitimize Edric Storm, wouldn't that put Jon as the first in line also in the Baratheon succession? (I'm considering Aegon to be fake here, and Jon legitimate. Daenerys doesn't matter, because it seems that from any angle he would still come before her),

There's no Baratheon succession. Robert is dead, he only has illegitimate bastards, Renly is dead with no heir, Stannis will be dead with only Shireen who'll also be dead soon (Val said so and Wildlings are never mistaken). That's all folks. With the Baratheons dead only Targaryens have claim for the Iron Throne, because they sat it before the Baratheons. If Aegon is Elia and Rhaegar's son and survives leading the Golden Company to Dragonstone, he's first in line, if Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son AND legitimized in some way (as a Stark by Robb, as a Targaryen by Rhaegar or through a R and L marriage) AND survived the assassination he's still second in line because he is younger than Aegon. Surely not much, but a little. If Aegon is fake or dies, and Jon is a Targaryen and legitimized and alive, he is the first in line. If he's not legitimized that rises a few problems, and Daenerys comes near to have a claim to the throne at last. If Jon is not a Targaryan or dead, Daenerys has clean way to the Throne. That's it.

As for the Promise Ned made. When Jon went off to the Wall Ned promised him they'd talk about their mother when they met again. Grave mistake, in a world like GoT, you can never know if you'll meet someone again. So it might have been the same with Lyanna. That he promised her he would tell Jon about his parents. When Ned is in the dungeons of the Red Keep he thinks of Jon and notes "Another promise broken" This can imply that the two promises (to Jon and Lya) were different, but clearly states that he never fulfilled the promise he made to Lyanna. Well what could that be, if not Jon's parents? To forgive Rhaegar? He fulfilled that. Ned never ever said a bad word about Rhaegar or the Targaryens. To bring down Robert? Ned was too honorable to do that and they were friends. To save Rhaegar? Lyanna probaby knew by then that Rhaegar was dead. To keep Jon safe? He did that. To raise Jon as his own? Well that's an option, since Jon never had a mother and Cat hated him, so it wasn't really like the fluffy pink childhood one would dream for her baby. But the only way there's any sense to this promise is that Lyanna HAD a baby. In another topic I saw a theory that Aegon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Who knows...

[Lady Octarina]

As for the Promise Ned made. When Jon went off to the Wall Ned promised him they'd talk about their mother when they met again. Grave mistake, in a world like GoT, you can never know if you'll meet someone again. So it might have been the same with Lyanna. That he promised her he would tell Jon about his parents. When Ned is in the dungeons of the Red Keep he thinks of Jon and notes "Another promise broken" This can imply that the two promises (to Jon and Lya) were different, but clearly states that he never fulfilled the promise he made to Lyanna. Well what could that be, if not Jon's parents? To forgive Rhaegar? He fulfilled that. Ned never ever said a bad word about Rhaegar or the Targaryens. To bring down Robert? Ned was too honorable to do that and they were friends. To save Rhaegar? Lyanna probaby knew by then that Rhaegar was dead. To keep Jon safe? He did that. To raise Jon as his own? Well that's an option, since Jon never had a mother and Cat hated him, so it wasn't really like the fluffy pink childhood one would dream for her baby. But the only way there's any sense to this promise is that Lyanna HAD a baby. In another topic I saw a theory that Aegon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son. Who knows...

Only problem here is that Ned didn't promise Jon he would tell him the truth in the books, only in the show. But you're right, Lyanna could have asked him to let the boy know the truth as soon as he was young old enough to understand the risks of his heritage. It might even be the most likely explanation. But my favorite crackpot theory here is that Rhaegar managed to make Lyanna as prophecy-obsessed as himself and that she made Ned promise he would tell Jon about the destiny he must fulfill :drunk:

Edited because I just saw I wrote "young" instead of "old enough", erasing all sense from that sentence O.O

[Maxpey]

how funny would it be if Jon turned out to be Ned's Bastard

I actually hope that is the case.

[Maxpey]

Ned's broken promises could relate to Catelyn and/or Robert — always being honest with them, etc. The broken promises thing doesn't have to be in reference to his promise to Lyanna, which he actually seems to have kept.

I think Ned broke his promise to raise Lyanna's son. I think Ned is really Jon's father from an as yet unidentified High Lady (possibly Ashara Dayne). Thus, Ned had to choose between raising Jon, his own son, or Lyanna's son. He choose Jon, and left Lyanna's son in the care of a third party. (Ashara Dayne? Howland Reed?). That is why Ned is haunted about "the Promise."

[RhaenysBee]

Only problem here is that Ned didn't promise Jon he would tell him the truth in the books, only in the show. But you're right, Lyanna could have asked him to let the boy know the truth as soon as he was young enough to understand the risks of his heritage. It might even be the most likely explanation. But my favorite crackpot theory here is that Rhaegar managed to make Lyanna as prophecy-obsessed as himself and that she made Ned promise he would tell Jon about the destiny he must fulfill :drunk:

That's true indeed. :( Ah, never mind then. But still, I hope we'll figure out what this bloody promise was. XD

[RhaenysBee]

Ned's broken promises could relate to Catelyn and/or Robert — always being honest with them, etc. The broken promises thing doesn't have to be in reference to his promise to Lyanna, which he actually seems to have kept.

But whenever the word 'promise' was used in a Ned chapter we always ended up at Lyanna somehow. And Ned kept remembering this Promise me Ned so frequently, that you just associate Lyanna to the word. But you are right, we never truly found out if her kept the promise or not. .

[IceGal]

Ned's broken promises could relate to Catelyn and/or Robert — always being honest with them, etc. The broken promises thing doesn't have to be in reference to his promise to Lyanna, which he actually seems to have kept.

If his promise to Lyanna was to make sure Jon lives, he sure kept it.

But what if she wanted more? Like getting her son his rightful place/honor in the realm? This is something Ned could never do, for even at Winterfell Jon was always treated as an outsider.

[Dragonfish]

There's no Baratheon succession. Robert is dead, he only has illegitimate bastards, Renly is dead with no heir, Stannis will be dead with only Shireen who'll also be dead soon (Val said so and Wildlings are never mistaken).

I'm hoping the bolded part is a joke.

When Ned is in the dungeons of the Red Keep he thinks of Jon and notes "Another promise broken" This can imply that the two promises (to Jon and Lya) were different, but clearly states that he never fulfilled the promise he made to Lyanna.

That quote never occurs in the books. Ned does dream about "lies and broken promises", but it's not clear that this refers to his promises to Lyanna. And Ned does explicitly recall keeping his promises to Lyanna at one point in AGOT.

I think Ned broke his promise to raise Lyanna's son. I think Ned is really Jon's father from an as yet unidentified High Lady (possibly Ashara Dayne). Thus, Ned had to choose between raising Jon, his own son, or Lyanna's son. He choose Jon, and left Lyanna's son in the care of a third party. (Ashara Dayne? Howland Reed?). That is why Ned is haunted about "the Promise."

The problem with this theory is that Ned remembers keeping his promises to Lyanna, and paying a price in the process. He also thinks to himself that he's been "living lies" for fourteen years, which happens to be Jon's exact age. Your proposed theory doesn't really match these quotes.

[RhaenysBee]

I'm hoping the bolded part is a joke.

That quote never occurs in the books. Ned does dream about "lies and broken promises", but it's not clear that this refers to his promises to Lyanna. And Ned does explicitly recall keeping his promises to Lyanna at one point in AGOT.

I wouldn't say it's a joke, but also not something you have to mean explicitly word by word. I meant Wildlings are wise and see things well.

Okay, it doesn't. But "lies and broken promises" doesn't occur either. I just checked. It says: "...dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." And "Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood." So yeah... that should after all refer to Lyanna in some ways, right? When Ned thinks of Robert, he thinks of youth, strength, mirth even regrets not telling Robert about Joffrey. When he thinks of Cat, he thinks of savior, wonders where she is what she is doing. Promises are not mentioned only in Lyanna's case.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Ned broke his promise to raise Lyanna's son. I think Ned is really Jon's father from an as yet unidentified High Lady (possibly Ashara Dayne). Thus, Ned had to choose between raising Jon, his own son, or Lyanna's son. He choose Jon, and left Lyanna's son in the care of a third party. (Ashara Dayne? Howland Reed?). That is why Ned is haunted about "the Promise."

You have yet to tell me when you think Ned would have fathered Jon on Ashara.

[Maxpey]

You have yet to tell me when you think Ned would have fathered Jon on Ashara.

Good point. That's because I don't really know. I thought perhaps sometime after Ned arrived at King's Landing during the sack. We know from Ser Barristan's POV in aDwD that Ashara was in King's Landing as one of Princess Elia's maidens. But I have seen it mentioned on other threads that Ashara had left King's Landing by the time Ned arrived. If this is the case, my theory is probably as stillborn as Ashara's daughter.

[RhaenysBee]

You have yet to tell me when you think Ned would have fathered Jon on Ashara.

I don't believe Ned fathered any illegitimate children at all. On Ashara or on Wylla or anybody else.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Good point. That's because I don't really know. I thought perhaps sometime after Ned arrived at King's Landing during the sack. We know from Ser Barristan's POV in aDwD that Ashara was in King's Landing as one of Princess Elia's maidens. But I have seen it mentioned on other threads that Ashara had left King's Landing by the time Ned arrived. If this is the case, my theory is probably as stillborn as Ashara's daughter.

Ashara was not in the capital during the Sack. And the Sack is around the time that Jon was born, not conceived.

I don't believe Ned fathered any illegitimate children at all. On Ashara or on Wylla or anybody else.

Nor do I.

[Dragonfish]

Okay, it doesn't. But "lies and broken promises" doesn't occur either. I just checked. It says: "...dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

Yeah, I wrote that quote from memory, which was clearly not exactly right. Still, it doesn't change my larger point, which is that the "broken promises" line does not explicitly refer to Lyanna's promises.

And "Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood." So yeah... that should after all refer to Lyanna in some ways, right?

It might, but there's nothing that says it has to.

When Ned thinks of Robert, he thinks of youth, strength, mirth even regrets not telling Robert about Joffrey.

Which is a broken promise of sorts. He misled Robert when he said he'd guard his children, when in reality he was planning on challenging Joffrey. He also never told Robert the truth about his suspicions regarding Jon Arryn's death and Joffrey's bastardy, a mistake which he feels led to Robert's death. This is driven home by this quote, which occurs just a few paragraphs after the broken promises one: "I failed you Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you." In fact, the whole chapter goes on and on about Ned's regrets regarding Robert, right up until Varys arrives. In contrast, Lyanna is not mention once, at least as far as I can tell. So in my opinion, I think the context implies that Ned is referring to his failed duties to Robert when he brings up the "broken promises."

[RhaenysBee]

Yeah, I wrote that quote from memory, which was clearly not exactly right. Still, it doesn't change my larger point, which is that the "broken promises" line does not explicitly refer to Lyanna's promises.

If you want explicit references, open a maths book. This is literature where the placement and usage of words count a lot. Two words: blood and promise, going together through sentences.

Which is a broken promise of sorts. He misled Robert when he said he'd guard his children, when in reality he was planning on challenging Joffrey. He also never told Robert the truth about his suspicions regarding Jon Arryn's death and Joffrey's bastardy, a mistake which he feels led to Robert's death. This is driven home by this quote, which occurs just a few paragraphs after the broken promises one: "I failed you Robert, Ned thought. He could not say the words. I lied to you, hid the truth. I let them kill you." In fact, the whole chapter goes on and on about Ned's regrets regarding Robert, right up until Varys arrives. In contrast, Lyanna is not mention once, at least as far as I can tell. So in my opinion, I think the context implies that Ned is referring to his failed duties to Robert when he brings up the "broken promises."

Regretting not doing things is not the same as breaking promises. A promise is an explicit thing in which I state something I will do. An undone action is not something like that. And the word promise is not once used in the Robert part. Yes, he thinks a lot about Robert, because Robert is the reason why he's rotting in the dungeons. He was his Hand, he opposed his wife, he plotted against his son, his whole life was built up around Robert (as Davos's life was built up around Stannis). He fostered with him, he rebelled with him, he served him. Of course Robert was in his thought. Anyway, Lyanna is mentioned, Ned remembers her death bed and the Tourney of Harrenhal with the winter roses. And it's also not stated explicitly that Ned broke his promises he made to Robert. Forgive the insolence :)

[Dragonfish]

If you want explicit references, open a maths book.

No, there are plenty of explicit references in literature. Ned explicitly thinks about Lyanna's promises multiple times throughout the books. However, this particular line is not an explicit reference to Lyanna's promises, despite the fact that you presented it as such a few posts ago.

This is literature where the placement and usage of words count a lot. Two words: blood and promise, going together through sentences.

Yes, and I presented an examination of the context of that particular quote. Not sure why you're being so patronizing when I'm doing the thing you say I ought to be doing.

Regretting not doing things is not the same as breaking promises. A promise is an explicit thing in which I state something I will do. An undone action is not something like that.

But Ned did make promises to Robert. He swore fealty to Robert when he became king, and he promised to serve him faithfully when he became Hand. He also promised Robert he would take care of his children, knowing full well that he was going to have to challenge Joffrey's rule. All of these promises were broken, at least from Ned's point of view.

Anyway, Lyanna is mentioned, Ned remembers her death bed and the Tourney of Harrenhal with the winter roses.

Yes, but it's not in close proximity to the "broken promises" quote. That line is almost entirely surrounding by his thoughts about Robert.

And it's also not stated explicitly that Ned broke his promises he made to Robert. Forgive the insolence :)

I never said it explicitly refers to Robert. In fact, I specifically said the context implied the quote had to do with Robert. Implication is by nature implicit, which makes it the opposite of "explicit."

[RhaenysBee]

No, there are plenty of explicit references in literature. Ned explicitly thinks about Lyanna's promises multiple times throughout the books. However, this particular line is not an explicit reference to Lyanna's promises, despite the fact that you presented it as such a few posts ago.

Yes, an explicit reference is when I say Lyanna sat in the garden. For that I'm not going to say she didn't. But literature, and good literature doesn't say things explicitly, otherwise it'd be dull. It says Lyanna returned to the room smelling flowers and fresh air. And where did I state such thing as It was explicitly referred to that Ned broke his bloody promise to his bloody sister, pray?

Yes, and I presented an examination of the context of that particular quote. Not sure why you're being so patronizing when I'm doing the thing you say I ought to be doing.

I'm not patronizing. I'm irritated. And where did you present that examination?

But Ned did make promises to Robert. He swore fealty to Robert when he became king, and he promised to serve him faithfully when he became Hand. He also promised Robert he would take care of his children, knowing full well that he was going to have to challenge Joffrey's rule. All of these promises were broken, at least from Ned's point of view.

But promises are not metaphorically connected to Robert. "Promise" marks Ned's relationship with Lyanna, not Robert.

Yes, but it's not in close proximity to the "broken promises" quote. That line is almost entirely surrounding by his thoughts about Robert.

That's true, but both sentences "dreams of blood and broken promises" and "Promise me Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood" contain the words 'blood' and 'promise' which in a piece of literature (short story, prose, poem, whatever you wish) could well be basis of reference.

I never said it explicitly refers to Robert. In fact, I specifically said the context implied the quote had to do with Robert. Implication is by nature implicit, which makes it the opposite of "explicit."

True again. You never said it explicitly refers to Robert, you said it explicitly does not refer to Lyanna, which is a mistake. Explicitly it's refer to neither, so we must lean on implication. And my take on metaphors and symbols is that they refer to Lyanna. Your take is that it refers to Robert. Can we agree on as much as that? :)

[Independent George]

If you want explicit references, open a maths book. This is literature where the placement and usage of words count a lot. Two words: blood and promise, going together through sentences.

Ahem. The title of this thread is "R + L = J v.24".

I expect everyone to show their work in this thread. No calculators allowed..