R+L = J v. 24

[Queen Regent]

YOU GUYS!!!!

I know this thread is supposed to be about how the R+L=J theory comes across in the books, but I was watching the newest episode of GoT (S02ele03) & something Renly said to Melisandre really struck me in relation to this theory...

I think it was She-Wolf who informed me about the theory that Jon could be AA & it might have been Ygrain who mentioned the cellars of the NW & how Jon's body mght be preserved/reborn there... anyways, in the scene I'm referring to, Melissandre says that Stannis was (re)born of smoke & salt, & Renly asks if he is a salted ham or something. It might not mean anything, or it could mean everything! Basically, I just thought it was interesting that show-Renly came to the same conclusion as some of you!

I was thinking she was referring to Dany, born of smoke (last of the dragons) and of salt (of the sea). When she said that though, it stuck out to me as well...

[kg1982]

Well, Ser Gerian's observations are correct, Jon didn't receive the regular education a noble kid would, but something closer to the education of a leader (is it ADwD that states something to that effect?). Though I doubt it was because Ned was preparing him to rule; as you said, he would never betray Robert to that extent. Hells, keeping the boy alive and hidden was betray enough! But yes, he received the education of a leader because he was the same age as Robb, and they were close, so it wouldn't make much sense to educate them apart.

And I'm sure that Bran and Rickon would have received the same type of training. It's just that Bran and Rickon are much younger than Jon and Robb. Learning how to lead armies and understanding politics was something that a young nobleman would learn. Jon was Ned's acknowledged son even if he was a bastard. I doubt that he'd be denied that basic education. Even the younger sons and bastard sons of great lords would be provided that education as they would end up with high positions in the army or church and needed those skills.

It does come in handy that Jon did receive a noble's upbringing based on the role he is probably going to end up playing. It is pretty providential that Ned raised Jon rather than letting him roam the Free Cities with Uncle Viserys and Auntie Dany. Jon has the education and interesting mentors that Dany has lacked so far.

[Lady Octarina]

And I'm sure that Bran and Rickon would have received the same type of training. It's just that Bran and Rickon are much younger than Jon and Robb. Learning how to lead armies and understanding politics was something that a young nobleman would learn. Jon was Ned's acknowledged son even if he was a bastard. I doubt that he'd be denied that basic education. Even the younger sons and bastard sons of great lords would be provided that education as they would end up with high positions in the army or church and needed those skills.

It does come in handy that Jon did receive a noble's upbringing based on the role he is probably going to end up playing. It is pretty providential that Ned raised Jon rather than letting him roam the Free Cities with Uncle Viserys and Auntie Dany. Jon has the education and interesting mentors that Dany has lacked so far.

I agree with you, but maybe I should have been more specific. When I wrote that, what I had in mind was Jon's knowledge of the geopolitics of the North, which the bastard boy didn't need to learn, but the heir to Winterfell did, but as they were about the same age, it would only make sense that both of them learned those details.

[LadyMary]

I agree with you, but maybe I should have been more specific. When I wrote that, what I had in mind was Jon's knowledge of the geopolitics of the North, which the bastard boy didn't need to learn, but the heir to Winterfell did, but as they were about the same age, it would only make sense that both of them learned those details.

I'm not sure that a high born bastard boy doesn't need to learn about geopolitics, just because he's not the heir. Eddard made sure his children had the best education available according to their status, resources and gender. Having that knowledge is helpful to a man trying to make his own way in the world, and if Jon hadn't gone to the Wall he might have ended up a squire or a knight to another Lord. Knowing the political dynamics would be very useful. And as you say, I don't see Ned singling Jon out for a lesser education when it was just as easy to educate Robb and Jon together. If Jon had been "out" as Ned's orphaned nephew rather than his bastard son, I think he would have done the same, and Ned knows the truth about Jon's parentage.

[Alia of the knife]

Excellent points Budj and welcome. THIS is why it is worthwhile to keep batting this topic around. New ideas come up, and one of us is bound to hit on correct answers to the puzzle. "Promise" may allude to TPTWP AND to promises that Lyanna asked Ned to keep. I think the part of the promise Ned regrets is that he was supposed to eventually tell Jon who he is.

It occurred to me yesterday that the "proof" in Lyanna's tomb might be that she is buried in the Targaryen cloak that she received at her wedding. Apologies if that's not original, but it's a new thought for me.

Yes, my sister is the spitting image of my maternal aunt, who is also the spitting image of her paternal uncle. They all three look more like each other than than they do any of their parents or siblings that I have met.

I think the fact that Lyanna has a Statue is also an indicator of her status.

As far as I know, she is the only female Stark to have one.

Only the former Kings of Winter, and the Lords of Winterfell, i.e., Rickard, Brandon, and later Ned have statues.

I don't think Ned did that for purely sentimental reasons.

I think he did it because of her rank and that she was a Princess.

[Ice Turtle]

I think the fact that Lyanna has a Statue is also an indicator of her status.

As far as I know, she is the only female Stark to have one.

Only the former Kings of Winter, and the Lords of Winterfell, i.e., Rickard, Brandon, and later Ned have statues.

I don't think Ned did that for purely sentimental reasons.

I think he did it because she was a Princess.

If she married Rhaegar wouldn't she be a queen after either Aegon's or Aerys' death?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If she married Rhaegar wouldn't she be a queen after either Aegon's or Aerys' death?

She'd be ... *thinks* a dowager princess, meaning, she was a princess through marriage but her husband died before becoming queen, and/or the queen mother, being the mother of the new king.

[Alia of the knife]

If she married Rhaegar wouldn't she be a queen after either Aegon's or Aerys' death?

Best explaination is Apples.

Rhaegar died a Crown Prince, though he may have been King in all but name only, but the name is important in terms of legal status, and he was never proclaimed King.

Lyanna would still have been only a Princess.

In the event of Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegons death, then Jon becomes the King, but Lyanna still remains in status at least a Princess even if she's now the Kings Mother.

[Sevumar]

As far as I know, she is the only female Stark to have one.

Only the former Kings of Winter, and the Lords of Winterfell, i.e., Rickard, Brandon, and later Ned have statues.

I don't think Ned did that for purely sentimental reasons.

I think he did it because of her rank and that she was a Princess.

She might be the only female Stark to have one, but it also seems like it was highly unusual for Brandon to have a statue too, seeing as he never reigned as Lord of Winterfell.

I'm really hoping that the details of the crypts turn out to be as important as posters have been speculating. Martin's spent a lot of time describing them and pointing to them in several of the story's most important mysteries. They have an incredible amount of meaning for Bran and Jon, even if they may not have proof of Jon's parentage.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

If she married Rhaegar wouldn't she be a queen after either Aegon's or Aerys' death?

Aerys died after Rhaegar so technically she wouldnt have. Once Rhaegar died, line of succession passed to Viserys.

[etu]

Aerys died after Rhaegar so technically she wouldnt have. Once Rhaegar died, line of succession passed to Viserys.

Not necessarily so. While I wouldn't swear as to what system the Targs used, a number of real life royal families would place Rhaegar's children ahead of Rhaegar's siblings in the line of inheritance.

[Teal'c]

Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, would it matter whether Jon was born before or after Aerys died? That is to say, if Jon was born after Aerys died, does the crown go to Viserys? If the whole thing had been out in the open, no one would have known if she was carrying a girl or a boy until she deliverd the baby. Do they go into a holding pattern to see if the new child is the king or if it will be her uncle who is crowned?

[Ygrain]

It has been mentioned a couple of times (e.g. with the Frey succession) that the heir's sons inherit before the heir's siblings. I don't recall ever being said that the Targs used a different system, only that females couldn't inherit, so I think it can be assumed that the succession was Aerys - Rhaegar - Aegon - Jon - Viserys.

[DarkSnow]

I've been following the R+L =J theory for awhile now and I pretty convinced that it will be relived to be true and we can all fell smug. But I haven't read all the posts and the topics so i don't know if this point has been made before. i was just re-reading the chapter when Dany and Drogon are in the fighters pit and the spear pierces his skin releasing smoke 'fire made as flesh' and it made me think about when Jon is stabbed and his wounds smoke. Could it be he is the dragon.

[Euphail]

It has been mentioned a couple of times (e.g. with the Frey succession) that the heir's sons inherit before the heir's siblings. I don't recall ever being said that the Targs used a different system, only that females couldn't inherit, so I think it can be assumed that the succession was Aerys - Rhaegar - Aegon - Jon - Viserys.

I think these questions are answered by the presence of the Kingsguard. The Commander, and two sworn shields of the King were with Jon, not with Viserys.

[Alia of the knife]

She might be the only female Stark to have one, but it also seems like it was highly unusual for Brandon to have a statue too, seeing as he never reigned as Lord of Winterfell.

I'm really hoping that the details of the crypts turn out to be as important as posters have been speculating. Martin's spent a lot of time describing them and pointing to them in several of the story's most important mysteries. They have an incredible amount of meaning for Bran and Jon, even if they may not have proof of Jon's parentage.

I think the Crypts will be where Jon finds proof if say, someone like Howland Reed tells him.

Or, I think there is some suggestion that while Jon doesn't have "dragon" dreams, but "wolf" dreams, the dreams he does have are prophetic in nature, a trait the Targs. also have.

If those dreams of the crypts evolve, especially if he's in a death-state coma where he may have full-on visions, then those dreams may tell him that he'll find his answers in the Crypts.

[Alia of the knife]

I think these questions are answered by the presence of the Kingsguard. The Commander, and two sworn shields of the King were with Jon, not with Viserys.

Aerys died after Rhaegar so technically she wouldnt have. Once Rhaegar died, line of succession passed to Viserys.

This is only if Rhaegar had died childless.

Now granted, only Ned and probably Howland Reed, as well as Ashara if she's alive, would know about a living child, but thats the reason why there would be potential trouble between Viserys/Dany and Aegon/Jon.

And as some have noted, why there were KG, (and not just any KG either, but three of the best), at the TOJ rather than with Viserys/Dany who only had a Knight, so theres a clue.

But, Ned being privy to all this would justify him creating a monument of Lyanna with all the other Kings and Lords of Winter.

[Lady Octarina]

Assuming Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, would it matter whether Jon was born before or after Aerys died? That is to say, if Jon was born after Aerys died, does the crown go to Viserys? If the whole thing had been out in the open, no one would have known if she was carrying a girl or a boy until she deliverd the baby. Do they go into a holding pattern to see if the new child is the king or if it will be her uncle who is crowned?

That's a good point, I really have no idea what happens in this case. But if Rhaegar married Lyanna and she was long pregnant already when he died, maybe it really goes to the baby if it's a boy? I really don't know. Lucky for us, Viserys is dead, so it really doesn't matter anymore :drunk:

[Budj]

I don't think it's about timing...I think the order trumps timing. Jon would be king if Aegon is fake/killed and a married R + L = J. The KG being at ToJ really confirms this. I agree with whoever said that before.

[Sapphire]

Hi all been lurking around for a bit and I have to say, at first glance this seemed really crackpot . Especially to someone like me that was only familiar with the show and hadn't yet read the books. Now that I have, any mention of Rhaegar and Lyanna feels like a huge neon sign. I am so sold on this that if Jon turns out to be Ned's bastard after all, I'll drop dead right then and there (and lose a boat load of money).

So what's the consensus, did Rhaegar die still believing Aegon to be TPTWP? He had about a year to change his mind. Hey third time's the charm and he was bound to get it right if he kept guessing!

And Budj, Jon fulfilling the prophecy because he owes his life to Ned's promise to Lyanna... :bowdown: