Best Hand of the King?

[Kate Poem]

And this king must be Stannis, because he WILL LISTEN Davos's advice. He trusts him and he has in "great attention" his low birth and being ex-smuggler. For Stannis most important is his loyalty, devotion and SINCERITY.

Ser Davos Seaworth for Hand!

[Lord Martin]

In General Conditions: Randyl Tarly... he fixed shit at Maidenpool.

In times of war: Jon Snow... bad ass Lord Commander that shows signs of some political savvy. But he trusted his men too much.

In times of peace: Edmure Tully... big softy and a bit of a putz. But he's good to his people.

[Golden Lady]

I'll go with Tyrion Lannister. He's the best. You can't deny it.

I also would like Ned Stark , but definetely a stronger one.

[Tewks44]

I think Tywin Lannister is the best hand. As GRRM said, the hand of the king is essentially the prime minister, and Tywin Lannister is a great ruler. A good man can make a bad king, and a bad man can make a good king. I think Tywin is a perfect example of this. Ruthless to his enemies, forgiving and generous to his friends. Say what you will about the man, but he kept the kingdoms together.

[corbon]

I think Tywin Lannister is the best hand. As GRRM said, the hand of the king is essentially the prime minister, and Tywin Lannister is a great ruler. A good man can make a bad king, and a bad man can make a good king. I think Tywin is a perfect example of this. Ruthless to his enemies, forgiving and generous to his friends. Say what you will about the man, but he kept the kingdoms together.

I think you have him confused with someone else. Forgiving and generous to anyone? :eek:

Kept the Kingdoms together? His policies as Hand caused a Tax Revolt. Things were so bad that a minor house was prepared to go against the entirety of Westeros alone, just to make the point. :thumbsdown:

Meanwhile the kingdoms had been kept together for several hundred years before his rulership. And fell apart under the watch of his family, who all deferred to him. :thumbsdown:

[Howling Mad]

Brynden Rivers - it is known.

[Batman]

I think you have him confused with someone else. Forgiving and generous to anyone? :eek:

Kept the Kingdoms together? His policies as Hand caused a Tax Revolt. Things were so bad that a minor house was prepared to go against the entirety of Westeros alone, just to make the point. :thumbsdown:

Meanwhile the kingdoms had been kept together for several hundred years before his rulership. And fell apart under the watch of his family, who all deferred to him. :thumbsdown:

He was trying to fix all of his families fuck ups. He's a poor father but a great ruler. Jaime captured and defeated, Joffrey decapitates the Warden of the North, Cersei was as bad as Aerys, Tyrion whores his way through half the kingdoms. Tywin was trying to clean that up before his death

[Natalie_S]

If I was king (oh well, queen) Tyrion would definitely be my man.

I'd also like to have Davos in the small council, because he has a better insight on the people's real problems.

Other people I'd like to keep close: Doran, Samwell, Brynden Tully and Kevan Lannister.

PS: Don't you think that the HBO series put too much stress on Tyrion's whoring?

In AGOT it's clearly stated that he didn't have any woman for over an year before Shae, and when he's "dating" (er, employing?) her, he doesn't sleep with anyone else. He tends to be monogamous, so to speak, and (with the only exception of the prostitute in ADWD) it seems that he looks for human contact more than just sex.

The fact that Tyrion is somehow addicted to prostitute seems to come more from Tywin's view of him than from actual book evidence.

[Tewks44]

I think you have him confused with someone else. Forgiving and generous to anyone? :eek:

Kept the Kingdoms together? His policies as Hand caused a Tax Revolt. Things were so bad that a minor house was prepared to go against the entirety of Westeros alone, just to make the point. :thumbsdown:

Meanwhile the kingdoms had been kept together for several hundred years before his rulership. And fell apart under the watch of his family, who all deferred to him. :thumbsdown:

I've never heard of the tax rebellion you mentioned, but I am eager to learn. Can you post a link with info or give me the pages where the rebellion was discussed. Ever since I joined these forums I've learned something new about the series every day :)

[corbon]

I've never heard of the tax rebellion you mentioned, but I am eager to learn. Can you post a link with info or give me the pages where the rebellion was discussed. Ever since I joined these forums I've learned something new about the series every day :)

The Defiance of Duskendale.

We don't know a lot about the causes. But superficially the actual act of defiance was a refusal to pay taxes. Tywin may have had nothing to do with it - it coul dhave been Aerys acting more or less directly (I think those are crown lands, owing direct allegiance to the crown).

But it is an interesting thought.

We get a lot of indirect data from characters suggesting Tywin is greatly feared as a general, yet his performance is very poor in that area.

Similarly we get suggestions from characters that Tywin was a great Hand (and the realm enjoyed peace for 15 years or whatever) but there are clues that this is a gross simplification if not an outright falsehood.

What is essentially a mini-revolt at Duskendale.

The suggestions that Rickard Stark was trying to build an Anti-Targaryen power bloc (why, if everything was sweetness and light with Tywin running things?).

The thought the Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar.

Really, Tywin's methods are all about fear, and nothing else. There is an iron fist, but no velvet glove (instead its a brutally spiked iron fist). That works to a point, but its hardly a recipe for any sort of success over a long period.

He might be a truly great administrator.

But I think there is plenty of room for doubt, once you look past the hype.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Bloodraven was definitely the most interesting Hand.

It's a tie between Breakspear, Tywin and Tyrion for best all around Hand.

I have to give Tyrion the edge only because we know the most about his machinations during his short tenure (because of his POVs).

If Aerys wasn't maniacally jealous of Tywin then his Handship would have went better. Aerys' constant getting in the way was a problem. I guess it's a testament to him that he was able to keep the realm glued together even with that nutjob on the throne. As soon as he left, Westeros went to the Seven Hells.

[corbon]

If Aerys wasn't maniacally jealous of Tywin then his Handship would have went better. Aerys' constant getting in the way was a problem. I guess it's a testament to him that he was able to keep the realm glued together even with that nutjob on the throne. As soon as he left, Westeros went to the Seven Hells.

The King shits, the Hand wipes." But somehow I can't see Tywin ever having accepted this.

By the accounts we have, Aerys was a moderately decent king prior to being imprisoned and daily taunted for 180 days while his Hand and army sat outside and did nothing.

Really its the King's job to rule, the Hand's job to facilitate that rule. But I can see to agreeing with you that Tywin could have been too arrogant to accept this, and seen Aerys as interfering.

Or maybe not, who knows.

But I find it a bit rich to see someone complaining of how the King interfered in how Tywin-the-Hand ruled the 7 Kingdoms... :huh:

[Leviathan I]

Stannis should be King! Not fucking Hand of the King.

[Tony Soprano]

It depends on the King.

I support Stannis. So let's say he becomes king.

He would need someone like Davos as Hand.

Stannis would be a just ruler, but his justice would be too harsh. Davos would keep him in check.

[ed Lannister]

The Defiance of Duskendale.

We don't know a lot about the causes. But superficially the actual act of defiance was a refusal to pay taxes. Tywin may have had nothing to do with it - it coul dhave been Aerys acting more or less directly (I think those are crown lands, owing direct allegiance to the crown).

But it is an interesting thought.

We get a lot of indirect data from characters suggesting Tywin is greatly feared as a general, yet his performance is very poor in that area.

Similarly we get suggestions from characters that Tywin was a great Hand (and the realm enjoyed peace for 15 years or whatever) but there are clues that this is a gross simplification if not an outright falsehood.

What is essentially a mini-revolt at Duskendale.

The suggestions that Rickard Stark was trying to build an Anti-Targaryen power bloc (why, if everything was sweetness and light with Tywin running things?).

The thought the Aerys didn't trust Rhaegar.

Really, Tywin's methods are all about fear, and nothing else. There is an iron fist, but no velvet glove (instead its a brutally spiked iron fist). That works to a point, but its hardly a recipe for any sort of success over a long period.

He might be a truly great administrator.

But I think there is plenty of room for doubt, once you look past the hype.

something you ignore is that the lord of duskendale rebelled after aery's denied his request for new charter for his people and to pay taxes to the crown, not tywin's doing but aerys's refusal sparked the lord of duskendale to rebel and tywin was not the cause of that defiance.aerys decided to show his strength coz tywin was outshining him in the way he handled matters of the realm and was more respected by westerosi lords and subjects more than the king..

aerys force and the members of the kingsguard that he took to duskendale was smashed and he was captured and it took tywin's siege of the town to help rescue aerys..with the threat to the king's life he could have not stormed the town and i'm pretty confident ser barristan selmy's action of sneaking in was discussed in his war council and ultimately led to the rescue of the king.the cunningness to sneak in the town would be something associated with tywin coming up with or concieved in the war council he chaired during the siege.

the supposed theories of some lords forming anti-targ bloc can be attributed to the freedom or independence they got under tywin leadership that led some in their hubris to habour ambitions to reach out and carve greater powers for their lands or territories.you need to show how you claim tywin ruled with an iron fist when the reigns to rule westeros or his lordship over the westerlands fell on him.

[corbon]

something you ignore is that the lord of duskendale rebelled after aery's denied his request for new charter for his people and to pay taxes to the crown, not tywin's doing but aerys's refusal sparked the lord of duskendale to rebel and tywin was not the cause of that defiance.aerys decided to show his strength coz tywin was outshining him in the way he handled matters of the realm and was more respected by westerosi lords and subjects more than the king..

I'm not ignoring anything. We really know very little about the Defiance of Duskendale. Your claim that Aerys did stuff because Tywin was outshining him is purely speculative, surely?

Supposedly, Aerys denied the request. Why? Why was there even a request made or needed? Why was it so bad that the Darklyns courted (and created) utter ruin for themselves? Basically everything is unknown, even if the 'bare facts' are true and show one thing or other.

I'm pointing out that Tywin has this great reputation. But the foundations of that reputation are not as secure as they might be. He supposedly had this rule as Hand during a great period of peace and bounty for Westeros. Yet there wasn't peace, there was a tax revolt.

This resonates with Tywin's military reputation, where he is held in high regard by every character, yet performs very badly.

I'm not saying he was definitely a bad Hand. I'm just saying, lets not just believe what people tell us without a critical eye. Maybe he wasn't as shit-hot as people think he was.

aerys force and the members of the kingsguard that he took to duskendale was smashed and he was captured and it took tywin's siege of the town to help rescue aerys..with the threat to the king's life he could have not stormed the town and i'm pretty confident ser barristan selmy's action of sneaking in was discussed in his war council and ultimately led to the rescue of the king.the cunningness to sneak in the town would be something associated with tywin coming up with or concieved in the war council he chaired during the siege.

I'm sorry, but that is purely speculative. There is zero indication that it was discussed in war council and zero indication that Tywin came up with it or conceived it.

And not only speculative, but IMO poor speculation. If Tywin had anything at all to do with it, why did it take 6 months to come up with?

My personal thought is that Barrisatn got sick of waiting for the Boss to come up with a plan and just went off entirely on his own plan. I'm not in any way assured that this is exactly what happened, but it seems to fit the 6 month wait much better than Tywin finally thinking of something.

the supposed theories of some lords forming anti-targ bloc can be attributed to the freedom or independence they got under tywin leadership that led some in their hubris to habour ambitions to reach out and carve greater powers for their lands or territories.you need to show how you claim tywin ruled with an iron fist when the reigns to rule westeros or his lordship over the westerlands fell on him.

Excuse me? In all the series, has Tywin ever not been shown to rule with an iron fist? His own children are afraid of him. His brother, later shown to be capable and clever, is known only as a yes-man lackey, an extension of Tywin without ever even a thought of his own.

His iron fist is evident in every action he takes, every decsion he explains.

[ed Lannister]

I'm not ignoring anything. We really know very little about the Defiance of Duskendale. Your claim that Aerys did stuff because Tywin was outshining him is purely speculative, surely? Supposedly, Aerys denied the request. Why? Why was there even a request made or needed? Why was it so bad that the Darklyns courted (and created) utter ruin for themselves? Basically everything is unknown, even if the 'bare facts' are true and show one thing or other. I'm pointing out that Tywin has this great reputation. But the foundations of that reputation are not as secure as they might be. He supposedly had this rule as Hand during a great period of peace and bounty for Westeros. Yet there wasn't peace, there was a tax revolt. This resonates with Tywin's military reputation, where he is held in high regard by every character, yet performs very badly. I'm not saying he was definitely a bad Hand. I'm just saying, lets not just believe what people tell us without a critical eye. Maybe he wasn't as shit-hot as people think he was. I'm sorry, but that is purely speculative. There is zero indication that it was discussed in war council and zero indication that Tywin came up with it or conceived it. And not only speculative, but IMO poor speculation. If Tywin had anything at all to do with it, why did it take 6 months to come up with? My personal thought is that Barrisatn got sick of waiting for the Boss to come up with a plan and just went off entirely on his own plan. I'm not in any way assured that this is exactly what happened, but it seems to fit the 6 month wait much better than Tywin finally thinking of something. Excuse me? In all the series, has Tywin ever not been shown to rule with an iron fist? His own children are afraid of him. His brother, later shown to be capable and clever, is known only as a yes-man lackey, an extension of Tywin without ever even a thought of his own. His iron fist is evident in every action he takes, every decsion he explains.

i did not state aerys started doing stuff because of just speculation on my part but rather from the events that took place before he decided to sideline his hand(tywin) starting with the responsibility of dealing with the lord of duskendale.to give examples stannis recollects that when his father steffon went to KL and visited the court they chanced to see tywin discharge his duties and were impressed with tywin and thought he was the king and just prior to duskendale defiance in the same year 276AL aerys had ser ilyne payne tongue cut out because he heard him claim it was his hand who truly ruled the kingdom and when he attended a tourney in lannisport the smallfolk cheered on tywin and rheagar more than the king from cersei's recollection all strong indicators of time tywin ruled well without aery's being in the limelight.

in regards on the war council aspect i brought up it's known common practice for any of the commanders in westeros despite whichever region they come from to have one when they conduct any military expeditions and dismissing the idea as poor also indicates on your part that maybe you think barristan is some kind of a superhero who single handedly acted own his own to rescue the king.just as an example in the history of westeros it's said it took 4 yrs to besiege dreadfort the seat of the boltons before they yielded to the starks,tyrells besieged storms end for almost a year so six months is qute plausible to take especially if the kings life is at stake.

the point u raised about tywin ruling with an ironfist is just deliberately picking on tywin,you can interpret his way of ruling as you want coz it's your right but in my POV he ruled well.

[Batman]

What about Jon Arryn? He ruled for 15 years with a usurper on the throne and had only one rebellion witch was crushed.

Robert was king by right of conquest, the same way Aegon I was. Why is it never said that Aegon usurped seven different kings?

[dollybird]

Tyrion and Davos

[Talleyrand]

Bloodraven, Baelor and Lord Chelsted