[Book Spoilers] EP 205 Discussion

[Drinking Cersei's Tears]

Just wanted to drop in and say I LOVE the dude playing Jaqen H'ghar. Loved the end where he puts his finger on his face, straight outta the book.

[Rockroi]

@ Ghost714

Thank you so much for responding to that ridiculous ass post, I was getting so worried that it was going to go unchecked for pages.

Well thanks, Ghost! I am the author of that “ridiculous ass post.” Sorry that I wrote it and that many people agree with it and that it’s a very accurate portrayal of Jon (the series) v. Jon (the book). I am also sorry that I then provided a compare and contrast analysis of the two. Next time I’ll just say “JON RULZ” and I guess that would be fine.

Qhorin definitely chose Jon in the book because, "the old powers were awakening", and he spotted Jon as a Warg. Qhorin knew having a son of Winterfell would be helpful now that the old magic has woken up, because the Starks have the blood of the First men, so the Old gods are strong in them.

First of all, this is a huge leap without any foundation. We have zero evidence to suggest this; Half-hand never talks to Jon about the link he (supposedly) has with the wolf. Now, was Half-hand a warg himself? Did he study its finer points? NO CLUE! We are never told nor could we ever imply as much from the info provided. Second if this is true, its terrible story telling because IT JUST SO HAPPENS that the ONE WARG in all the Watch finds the only Warg Recruit in all the Watch. Thank God they found each other. Third, if this is true (and considering how lame Jon’s journey has been so far I would not be surprised if this was the case) than Quirion is a MASTER! He found the warg ability in Jon in 15 seconds! Amazing.

But, strangely, we are never told this. Its never even implied. He likes the wolf. Great. And yet you can say- with no evidence mind you- that Qhorin (sorry I have difficulty properly spelling made up words) picked Jon “definitely” because he’s a warg. Amazing. There is no evidence for this, but you can say it.

I am sorry for being harsh, it just makes me very angry when someone goes into some long ass rant about how Jon should not have been chosen, they make it so long, constantly repeating themselves, "trying to make such a strong point", and they have no idea what they are talking about.

Sorry, I was only building together cogent facts with analysis, evidence and persuasive points stitched together to make an argument. Sorry if that makes you resort to insults. My bad; didn’t know you were so sensitive.

Jon getting Longclaw is not some undeserved gift either. Yes it was Jon's job to try and save Commander Mormont, but trying and succeeding are two different things.

Okay, so just find me in the Night’s Watch Oath where it says, “I shall win no glories… except if I do something cool at the Wall, in which case I will totally get a sword so rare that at least one major house does not even have one.”

JUst to bury this point: Jon Snow, 15 years old, gets a sword made of the rarest steel in the realm; one so rare that only a relative few swords of its kind even exist. Jon gets one after being on the Wall for 8 weeks. The Lannisters, by contrast, the richest clan in the 7 Kingdoms do not have such a sword. But Jon Snow totaly has one.

See, that’s my whole point- Jon is part of this body of men, but he is always separate from it; he gets to SAY that he will “win no glories” and then wins glories; he gets to say that he will not get rewards, and then he is IMMEDIATELY rewarded. He gets a sword- a Valaryian Steel Blade- for doing his job. That is a classic point from the author that says, “Dear Reader: this character is special and you better like him because he is going to be a round a long time. A really long time.” I won’t even get to the part where he starts bedding a hot wilding girl and then bitches about it for 500 pages.

Jon did not just try and save Mormont, he succeeded at saving Mormont, he managed to kill the Wight without getting himself, or Mormont killed. Mind you, it took multiple men of the Nights Watch to kill the other Wight named Jafer Flowers, but not befor (sic) that Wight killed Ser Jaremy Rykkar, the acting First Ranger in Benjen Starks absence.

So where are their Valyrian Steel swords? Seriously, why does Jon get this plum gift when its stated that he is never going to be entitled to any such gifts? Look, I think what Jon did was brave and he deserves CREDIT for his actions; not a reward. If he does get a reward, it should be more narrowly tailored. Its a disproportional reward. But in the realm of Jon Snow: Superhero, it makes sense. He has a super direwolf, he is on the fast-track to command; he eventually gets elected Lord Commander (by many men who have NEVER MET HIM). So, in the realm of the book, it makes sense because Jon's reality is so warped.

And then he deserts. Seriously. That’s the guy you gave that amazing sword to. “Now my watch begins, it shall not end…. Until I really need to see my brother South of the Wall…”

So the old Bear finds his family sword, after the fire, and he decides to give the sword to Jon, a surraget (sic) son, who happened to save his life.

SEE!!!! This is my problem you call Jon a surrogate (and you bitched at me for misspelling Qhorin; people on glass walls, my friend) son to a man he met 8 weeks ago! I mean can you see how bizarre that is? How short-sighted, lazy, quick, unearned, and lame that is? Jon did a good act; he did his Job (I find your argument that Jon’s job was to stay in his cell to be unrealistic, unconvincing, poorly thought out, and trivial). But to be rewarded with such a prize just smacks of hollow gratification and a character that HAS to be advanced much faster than would be expected or understood. He’s not only wearing “plot armor” but he’s in the “plot race-car” speeding on high-octane “plot- Nitrous Oxide” speeding down the “plot highway.” And in order to get that character "up to speed" he needs the arms for it. BAM! He gets the Valaryian Sword. Just like that. And who cares if it makes sense.

Some people think Jeor should have sent Longclaw back to Bear Island, they think that would have made more sense. I don't understand that line of thinking. Jeor had just convinced Jon that their war against the Others and Wildlings was way more important than Jon going South to help Robb fight his war. So after Jeor having just said that to Jon, people think he should be a hypocrite and send his Valyrian Steel sword back to Bear Island, instead of giving it to a gifted young Swordsmen who is about to go on a Ranging North of the Wall, against the Wildlings and Others??

The one who HAD JUST DESERTED! Really? See, having the sword go to Bear Island makes perfect sense because the sword is only Mormont's so long as he is head of that household. When he stepped down it should have gone to his son or one of his (300) daughters. Mormont is a steward of that sword and its held in his trust for the protection of Bear Island… unless, of course, that the plot calls for him to give the sword to that cool young swordsman who is super great and has an amazing direwolf and just seems so … so … swell!!! In that cse, give that family heirloom to that guy. I mean, if Ned went to the Wall with Ice and met a similar person, he would NEVER give Ice to Robb! Nah! He would have given it to that new kid he just met... 8 weeks before... You say so yourself; you are so enamored by Jon’s talents and accomplishments (and by “accomplishments” we mean “nothing worthwhile yet”) that the fact that Mormont gives that sword so quickly makes sense to you. Its because Jon is so … so … swell!!!!

Gods, why can't people actually take their blinders off and think about something???

Pot… meet kettle…

[Rockroi]

Your not wrong.

I don't like that Dan Weiss has made up his mind about Stannis, because I feel that he is wrong(I just watched that clip yesterday, before the new episode), and I feel like they are making Stannis the way Dan Weiss views him. I don't agree with that, because they should make Stannis the way he is in the books, that way the audience can deside how they feel about Stannis. Most people started out not liking him, and as the books went on they started to change their minds(myself included), but in the show they are making Stannis far to unlikeable, and I am fearing know one will change their minds about him as the show goes on. In my opinion, it's not right for them to tell the viewers how to feel, and that's pretty much what they are doing making Stannis so bad, instead of the awesome grey character that he is. It's like Dan Weiss judges Stannis by his cover, and forgot about a lot of good redeeming stuff about him, that we get in the later books. Dan Weiss saying Stannis would make a horrible King in that video, that did not sit well with me, especially because he said Renly would make a great King, because I don't agree with that, and it should be up to the individual to deside. Now people are going to be like, "see I told you Stannis would be horrible King, even Dan Weiss said so blah blah Renly woo!"

So I feel your frustration, and it's not just you.

Ghost- I disagree with you adamently about Jon Snow, but I could not agree more with you on your evaluation of Stannis and the show's conclusion that Stannis would make a "bad king" is unwelcome, misinformed, and shallow. Its a "top-down" evaluation without any degree of evidence or proof. Stannis- leader of men at war, at seige and on the sea -is just so ... so... mean... that he would make a bad King (we are told). Renly, now that guy looks pretty in arnor and he's handsome and the gals like him so he must be a great King (we are told).

That's not how this should work- give the audience the infomration and have us make up our own minds. Have the audiance like Stannis or hate Rely; hav ethe audience say that Tywin is an asshole or that Ned Stark is an amazing man. Why take the organiz fun out of it and replace it with fiat-driven conclusions that say "Dear Viewer: You Must HAte Stannis. And Why? Because he's a poopy-head!" Its not proper story-telling. The reader should ecide for him or herself what to like or what to hate. Me? Christ I LIKE STANNIS! How screwed up is that!?

I find the show's drive to conclusions instead of organic, "ground-up" discovery to be heavy-handed, unwelcome and unnecessary. Let the people decide, not the (misinformed) heads of state.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Rockroi

[Buttered Turnip]

I think things are pointing to Osha leading Bran and Hodor beyond the wall instead of traveling to Skaggos with Rickon. I wonder if they will leave out the Skaggos trip entirely and just figure out a way to send Rickon strait to the Manderlys for safe keeping and then have him connect with Davos at White Harbor.

Edit - By the way, I tried to quote Aegontheunlikely's earlier post but can't figure it out. I assume you just click quote on the post you want to respond to and then reply...but it's not working. What am I doing wrong?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Buttered Turnip

[Jory]

Ghost- I disagree with you adamently about Jon Snow, but I could not agree more with you on your evaluation of Stannis and the show's conclusion that Stannis would make a "bad king" is unwelcome, misinformed, and shallow. Its a "top-down" evaluation without any degree of evidence or proof. Stannis- leader of men at war, at seige and on the sea -is just so ... so... mean... that he would make a bad King (we are told). Renly, now that guy looks pretty in arnor and he's handsome and the gals like him so he must be a great King (we are told).

That's not how this should work- give the audience the infomration and have us make up our own minds. Have the audiance like Stannis or hate Rely; hav ethe audience say that Tywin is an asshole or that Ned Stark is an amazing man. Why take the organiz fun out of it and replace it with fiat-driven conclusions that say "Dear Viewer: You Must HAte Stannis. And Why? Because he's a poopy-head!" Its not proper story-telling. The reader should ecide for him or herself what to like or what to hate. Me? Christ I LIKE STANNIS! How screwed up is that!?

I find the show's drive to conclusions instead of organic, "ground-up" discovery to be heavy-handed, unwelcome and unnecessary. Let the people decide, not the (misinformed) heads of state.

Yep, it's this kind of "Well... why don't you like Renly? He's better than Stannis you idiot! Look, we even change how he reacts to your favorite character Robb's alliance proposal". We aren't meant to like Stannis in the series, and that's very clear. I don't like it when that sort of thing gets shoved in my face, either. I especially don't like how all of their changes so far have been, more or less, anti-Stannis, making him into a more villainous or at the least incompetent and "influenced" character. For instance: Stannis doesn't say he loves Renly, Renly says that about Stannis. Stannis doesn't get a cool zinger in against Renly, Renly gets a cool zinger in against Stannis. It makes no sense.

[Rockroi]

"In your bed she's like to die that way...."

Seriously, wtf? Stannis tells like 5 jokes in the whole series, you can't let one slip through?

You are 100% correct, Jory, insofar as in the books, we are not supposed to like Stannis (though I have always loved Stannis) but he grows on you; like a fine wine or mold. In the books Stannis' dogged peristence is ... kinda hot.

In the show, you said it best: the writers REALLY want us to like/love Renly and we couldn't even find him interesting enough to invite on the second date. I mean, we are obligated to like him, and hence the writers give him all that catchy dialog etc.

Now there is also another (plausible) reason they gave him that dialog: because they were about to kill him. See, two weeks ago I mentioned how when Yoren died in a "blaze of glory" I did not care for it because death and violence oin this world is not amazing and cool etc. But the fact is a character kinda needs to have a cool "swan song" and for fighters (like Jory and Yoren etc) its going out cool with steel in your hand. Well Renly its going out with catchy comebacks (and Stannis "The Ham" was kind of hillarious).

Still, it rings hollow.

Look at pro-wrestling (stay with me). In wrestling Vince McMahon would spend years trying to keep "Good Guys" as crowd favorites and make heels stay bad guys. But then something amazing happened- some guys, most notably Brett Heart and Steve Austin - were clear "bad guys"... that the fans LOVED! Fans loved Steve Austin and Roddy Piper and The Rock- all characters that were loathsome and arrogant and real assholes. But the fans loved them. So, instead of making the fans "like" the "good guys", Vince just decided, "Hey- why not just present what's out there and lety the FANS decide who they like and who they dislike? Why force-feed them story-lines and plots? Why not let it grow naturally?

That's Stannis.

I always liked Stannis. I like that he is absolutely, 100% correct: he's the King. Everyone in Westeros lives in a monarchy; they don't get to decide if they "like" or "don't like" the KIng. Irrellevant. All that matters is that Stanns is Robert's true-born heir and that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are abominations and the product of incest between Jaime and Cersei. THe fact that Renly turns his back on Stannis and makes his own claim is as gauling as it is unfair: Stannios backed Robert the way Renly should have backed Stannis. I like that Stannis sees the unfairness.

I also like that Stannis has all the social graces and charmes of a howitzer. I love that:

-He took the word "beloved" from his description of Robert;

-That when he meets Sam Tarly he says that "(parapjrase) I would not expect Lord Tarly to have a son like you." And then says "You would make a useful hostage.'

-That when he raises Davos to Hand, Davos says, "But the lords will not follow me, and Stannis replies (without a HINT of sentimentality), "Then we will make new ones" (seriously: that's a fucking amazing thing to say).

I love that he has no grace, no charm, no polish. I love that he has determination, steel, and grit.

And if the producers cannot see that then... well then I guess that explains why they think Roz works...

[J_Crews]

I always liked Stannis. I like that he is absolutely, 100% correct: he's the King. Everyone in Westeros lives in a monarchy; they don't get to decide if they "like" or "don't like" the KIng. Irrellevant. All that matters is that Stanns is Robert's true-born heir and that Joff, Myrcella and Tommen are abominations and the product of incest between Jaime and Cersei. THe fact that Renly turns his back on Stannis and makes his own claim is as gauling as it is unfair: Stannios backed Robert the way Renly should have backed Stannis. I like that Stannis sees the unfairness.

I also like that Stannis has all the social graces and charmes of a howitzer. I love that:

-He took the word "beloved" from his description of Robert;

-That when he meets Sam Tarly he says that "(parapjrase) I would not expect Lord Tarly to have a son like you." And then says "You would make a useful hostage.'

-That when he raises Davos to Hand, Davos says, "But the lords will not follow me, and Stannis replies (without a HINT of sentimentality), "Then we will make new ones" (seriously: that's a fucking amazing thing to say).

I love that he has no grace, no charm, no polish. I love that he has determination, steel, and grit.

And if the producers cannot see that then... well then I guess that explains why they think Roz works...

I agree. But, to be fair, I think they're playing him up as a shitheel, so that his FACE-turn means more later, the same way they forcefully endeared Renly to the viewers in order to make his death mean something.

Edited May 2, 2012 by J.S. Crews

[Rockroi]

I agree. But, to be fair, I think they're playing him up as a shitheel, so that his FACE-turn means more later, the same way they forcefully endeared Renly to the viewers in order to make his death mean something.

Yeah, that is almost assuredly true. I think that makes sense and when you think about it, the books also capitalized on all that.

[Elfangle]

@ Rockroi: you really don't like Jon do you?

Everything you accuse Jon of is practically the same for Dany and Tyrion. And that is perfectly understandable because George has a role set out for them. They cant stay insignificant characters. Jon needs to get a valyrian sword and become LC in the same way as Dany needs to get dragons somehow and Tyrion has an affinity with dragons and leaves Westeros. There are so many things these 3 people acquire and get away with because that is needed for the story to develop. Is that a bit unrealistic? Off course it is but it is also necessary. Else we would still be stuck with a powerless khalesi, a powerless steward and a dwarf stuck in his fathers army.

As for Jon getting the Mormont sword. The old bear obviously likes him and how can you judge that saving his life is not enough for him to give the sword? Maybe Mormont likes to be not dead and this is his way of thanking a men with a bright future in the NW. Why did Catelyn released Jaimy knowing very well it would create huge problems for her son. Why did Rob marry Jeyne knowing very well it would humiliate the Freys? All these decisions are not based on logics and reasoning and what is realistic or not. They are inpulsive and based on emotions. Why would it not be possible for Mormont to identify with Jon? The man has been on the wall for ages, he must miss his family. He oviously had his reasons for not sending the sword to his daughters else he would have done it. Him knowing that the others are coming is a viable reason. His duties are to protect seven kingdoms. So giving a strong asset to someone who will play an important role in that cause is very reasonable.

Why is Jon being chosen by the halfhand so strange. All you do is wipe arguments that others are making from the table but you do not come up with any arguments from your side why it would make sense for the halfhand to allow Jon to accompany him after Jon asks himself. To me the scene in the tv show just means that the halfhand did not even considered taking Jon with him. So why would he then suddenly accept him along? Because Jon stated he killed a wight? Please, if there is one guy that doesnt care about bragging it's Qhorin. There is no place in his team for people who are full off themselves. So him choosing Jon on hos own initiative makes more sense to me because he did it for a reason. And there are plenty of reasons (although you shot each down). First, Jon has a freaking dire wolf! They are suppose to live beyond the wall so having one would be a great asset. Second, Although Qhorin would not care about bragging, he probably knows that Jon killed a wight! This tells him that Jon has plenty of courage (does his job as a member of the NW), can handle himself in such a situation and is a fast thinker. It's the kind of man you would want for such a mission. Third, he knows Jon is a Stark. With all the crazy stuff going on with the others, Jons blood and connection to the old gods and the CotF might come in handy. Qhorin is practical and any aspect, no matter how small, that might help their mission or improve their chances at survival is an asset to him. Jons heritage could play a role, no matter how insignificant ( same goes for Ghost, who is a pretty huge asset). And fourth, I think Qhorin knew Benjen Stark. He knew the man Benjen was and then you have his nephew. There might be some emotional connection to besides the pure practical one!

[J_Crews]

<----------------- BIG STANNIS FAN

[Jory]

I agree. But, to be fair, I think they're playing him up as a shitheel, so that his FACE-turn means more later, the same way they forcefully endeared Renly to the viewers in order to make his death mean something.

You think so? One of the producers has outright said that Stannis would make a terrible king. I'm not so sure this is what they're doing. For all I know, Daenaerys will be the one who saves the Wall from the wildling attack, the way this plot is going.

[J_Crews]

You think so? One of the producers has outright said that Stannis would make a terrible king. I'm not so sure this is what they're doing. For all I know, Daenaerys will be the one who saves the Wall from the wildling attack, the way this plot is going.

They'd never, ever, ever make that drastic of a completely plot-altering change. Never happen.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

<----------------- BIG STANNIS FAN

No that would be me.

[Morrigan]

How many fans prefer show Osha over book Osha?

I've never actually cared for the show Osha beginning from the first encounter with the wildlings. These are proud people who call themselves the free folk and sneer at kneelers yet they all came across as very cringing like whipped dogs to me. Osha is always describes as standing straight and tall while being very direct and no nonsense. I just haven't been able to enjoy the show Osha, she's always seeming sly and sneaky the way she slouches and tilts her head and plays at words.

Agreed. I don't have anything against show-Osha, but she's a very different character and I much prefer the badass, proud, no-nonsense, older book-Osha.

I'm agnostic as which character is better, but I dig Natalia Tena, so I've just run with it. As to her seeming less proud, she did beg for her life similarly in the book as well after the wolves tore into her companions.

Not even close to "similarly". In the books, she throws down her spear and asks, "mercy, m'lord", and falls on her knees in a quiet and dignified way. In the TV show, she falls on the ground like a cringing dog and begs for her life in a simpering tone. When mercy is granted she pretty much sobs in relief and starts kissing Robb's boots (or the hem of his cloak or something). I really hated that, she looked pathetic and cowardly instead of strong and dignified.

[LuisDantas]

I agree. But, to be fair, I think they're playing him up as a shitheel, so that his FACE-turn means more later, the same way they forcefully endeared Renly to the viewers in order to make his death mean something.

"Face turn"? Book Stannis was fairly likeable up until Renly's death. Then it was all over.

Ever since he is at best an anti-hero, and that at his best moments. He is basically a mafia boss that happens to have a reason to protect you - he is even demanding "protection" money and other "favors" from the people he swears to want to serve.

If anything, he is getting worse in his morality. As of ADWD he actually claims in a letter to Jon Snow that he will kill the prisoners that he made at Deepwood Motte except for the highborn, yet no one seems to have noticed that.

Stannis as a good guy is basically a fandon creation. It lacks support from the actual books.

Edited May 2, 2012 by LuisDantas

[LuisDantas]

Anybody notice that Melisandre's necklace and Quaithe's arm bracelets/facemask have the same pattern?

I didn't. It is no coincidence that the two are Asshai characters, I suppose. In fact, they are the only two characters that we know to come from Asshai.

[Jern Ormen]

LOVED

Arya and Tywin's chemistry in this episode.

Jaquen's overall awesomeness.

Drogon, the other dragons, and Ghost making appearances.

Rickon smashing nuts (it's really the little things that make all the difference)

The House of the Undying foreshadowing, complete with Pyrat Pree's absolutely unsettling appearance, and Quaithe's appearance in the middle of the crowd was even better than her riding up in the desert

Tyrion, Bronn, and the Pyromancer scene.

Jorah and Dany's scene being salvaged by incredible acting

OKAY with

The changes in the Renly's death and aftermath. From a reader's perspective, I can understand why it had to be done for the TV audience.

Theon's scene was well done, but Dagmer needs to have a cleft jaw.

Show Samwell is officially better than Book Samwell.

Not seeing Dany's breast. Is it me, or did her handmaidens get 1000x hotter inbetween seasons?

NOT SO OK with

The exclusion of Jon's wolf dream.

The shadowbaby. Wouldn't it have been easier on the budget just to have the shadow appear out of Renly's shadow on the tent curtain? Then stab Renly's shadow, and BOOM! Blood spurting out of Renly's chest. That being said, loved the sound it made when it stabbed Renly.

Mormont and Jon being a bit out of character at the Fist.

The Tickler dying first. I can see why they did it, but damnit, Arya killing him was a fist pump moment in the books.

Sandor's absence from the episode :(

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jern Ormen

[Silmarien]

Didn't have time to read all 28 pages, but here are some of my opinions.

What does everyone think about the change in Xaro Xaroan Daxos? He has gone from a pedophile to a very ambitious man courting Daenerys. I think I like the TV Xaro better.

This is a nitpick but I didn't like Quaithe's mask. And why did she appear to Ser Jorah first, and not Dany?

In the trailers people bitched and moaned about Dany's "The Starks and Lannisters fight each other, the Baratheons destroy each other" line, but it totally makes sense in the context. Sigh - people get so critical before they even see the episodes!

I LOVED the Harrenhal scenes. Arya was quick on her feet naming herself part of the Dreadfort (and how ironic, lol - fake Arya, anyone?). Tywin seems fair with his servants, not unkind. It wouldn't surprise me if she had qualms about killing him.

It seems the Tickler won't be dying in an inn via Sandor. I HOPE they keep Polliver for that scene! PLEASE!!!

If she has the Mountain killed, it'll screw up the Dorne plotline an Tyrion's trial by combat vs 2.0. I hope she doesn't have him killed - I was hoping the Dorne plotline would remain. I realize they'll have to cut A LOT of the Dorne stuff but I want at least a little of it in there. They don't need it until Season 3 and mostly 4 anyway.

[J_Crews]

@ The Scabbard Of the Morning

Apparently, we of the Stannis-supporters are in a minority. Is it weird that makes me like him even more? :/

[Jern Ormen]

@ The Scabbard Of the Morning

Apparently, we of the Stannis-supporters are in a minority. Is it weird that makes me like him even more? :/

Stannis fan here. He may not be the most socially adept person in the Seven Kingdoms, but he seems to be fighting the actual battle that's going to matter in the long run. The one at The Wall

That, and TV Stannis really cemented himself as Stannis in this episode. I was on fence about him last week, now I'm sold