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Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP 205 Discussion

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How Bran is going beyond the wall by himself (and hordor?). It was a bit strange that they left the reeds out.. even though I hate Jojen, and I think things will run out better without him there is still the problem that Osha will go with rickon and bran would go with the reeds.. so what now?

I'm wondering if they'll move up Coldhands, in combination with Osha, to replace the Reeds.

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Hey all, a long time lurker and a first time poster here.

This episode was my favourite of the series so far. The scenes with Brienne and Catelyn, Arya and Jaqen, Dannis and Stavos and even the surprising new scene with Tywin and Arya just blew my mind. Renly's death may have not been as unforgettable as it was in the novel, and Loras's rage afterwards wasn't shown, but the following exchange between Littlefinger and the Tyrells more than made up for that in my opinion. I love seeing interactions between non-POV characters, and having Loras blame Stannis for Renly's murder makes the Tyrell/Lannister allience make so much more sense. Nothing stops him from blaming Brienne for the murder later, even if he sees sense now. The show has also made Margaery Tyrell such a compelling character way earlier than the books did and Natalie Dormer plays her so well, I can't wait to see her in scenes with Lena Headey later in the series. Hopefully she'll stop wearing those silly dresses though.

But what really made this episode for me were changes that significantly improved some of the worst parts of the book.

1) Dany's storyline in Qarth. In the novel, House of the Undying was pretty much the only interesting or memorable part in all of her chapters in aCoK (and the Qarthian gown, of course). The whole invented backstory to the city with the Garden of Bones and combining all the various guilds and warlocks to the simpler Thirteen has made what was essentially just another boring city in Essos into an actually interesting location in the series. Xaro Xhaon Daxos and Pyat Pree are both way better and more interesting than their novel counterparts. I would've wanted to see Quaithe interact with Dany instead of Jorah, but at least she looked really memorable, and will hopefully later speak with Dany. Even Dany's handmaidens and the actions of her remaining khalasar have become interesting in the show. I really hope they can pull of the same with the storyline in Meereen, even the mention of the place in this episode made me cringe.

2) Bran's storyline. In the novel, Bran's interactions with Little and Big Walder were cliché and really repetitive. It's like GRRM was trying too hard with these child antagonists to Bran, while the ongoing war and his growing responsibility of Winterfell and even Rickon (who manages to be really eerie and memorable in the series just by smashing nuts in the background) make for a much more interesting story. And while Jojen and Meera are interesting characters, most of Bran's chapters in aCoK are just him either getting bullied by the Freys or talking to the Reeds about Jojen's visions etc. Now with all of them gone or pushed to appear later on, we get brilliant scenes like the one where Bran sends Ser Rodrik to Torrhen's Square. I just loved that approving look Rodrik gave to Bran, and the way Bran seems to be slowly growing and learning his responsibilities. Giving Jojen's greendream to Bran also makes things so much more simpler at this point, and that talk Bran had with Osha about it was really amazing to watch. And that foreshadowing about the two orphan boys..

Edited by pykmi

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The characters age in the books too. Martin is never specific about time passed, because it would not make sense. Better to ignore it than try to explain it and show the readers how sloppy he is in this regard.

Yes he is. For exemple Arya mentions her age in aFfC and she's 11 if I remember well .And we know that Rickon was 3 at the beginning of the series and 4 when he presumably died. I'm rather certain Martin is not "sloppy" regarding chronology.

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The camera going to Jon when Half-Hand mentions the First Men, as it foreshadows for the viewers. I like when they allude to things on the show, and having read the books, knowing what they're building to.

As for this instance, the first time watching, I didn't catch the camera on Jon, until reading woh dak nag gram's post and then going back to the DVR and watching that scene again.

I don't understand what you are all talking about. It's not a secret that the Starks are descendants of the first Men so , what is it supposed to be foreshadowing exactly?

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Shouldn't Jon have found the horn and Dragon Glass by now?

I dopubt he's going to find it now, perhaps they've written it so that Sam wonders upon finding it, its a minor thing for his character, but Sam defeating that 1 whitewalker with it gives us Sam the Slayer!

Im not sure I like the look of Qhorin Halfhand, nothing against the actor but he just doesnt look as badass as Qhorin obviously is in the books. I always imagined him looking like a character 'Keldorn' from the PC game Baldurs Gate 2.

Not a bad episode though, I think its better then last weeks and I cant wait to see what the battle at FoFM looks like, although I think that S2 will end with those 3 horn blasts.

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Not to make it all about money here, but CGI is very expensive (unless you want it to look like something off the Syfy channel)

Yeah, you are sooo right: the CGI on such shows as Battlestar Galactica, Stargate Universe, Eureka and Warehouse 13 all look like crap. :devil:

In terms of directors Alan Taylor was around last year,Alik Sakharov has directed one of the best episodes this season, and David Petraca did a fine job of E5. Not sure I know who David Nutter is. We have a lot of Alan Taylor this year. Neil Marshall is supposed to be an A list film director.

I think any problems have been with the teleplays not the directors.

Other great directors from HBO that have worked on GoT: Timothy Van Patten (directed 2 eps of GoT so far, and directed such HBO greats as Rome, Deadwood, The Sopranos and The Wire, just to name a few), and Daniel Minahan (3 eps of GoT, as well as True Blood, Six Feet Under and Deadwood).

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Shouldn't Jon have found the horn and Dragon Glass by now?

That's turns out to be important in the book, I think it will be Sam who finds it now.

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I'm thinking Luwin will still die but maybe not when we expect him too and the reeds will come in later, maybe not until season three, I'm hoping so anyways, keeping my fingers crossed, i like the reeds, i would be upset if they don't cast them.

I just don't see them having Osha disappear forever, because if they do then the actress will move on to other things and there'll be no guarantee of getting her back. Natalia Tena has been so impressive in the role that GRRM has stated that he's even adjusted his plans for Osha's role in the books because of her portrayal. Reeds or no Reeds, Natalia Tena ain't going nowhere, folks.

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Kirk on a planet where the women wear dresses that show a boob all the time? He'd never leave!

Har! Funny...

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I just don't see them having Osha disappear forever, because if they do then the actress will move on to other things and there'll be no guarantee of getting her back. Natalia Tena has been so impressive in the role that GRRM has stated that he's even adjusted his plans for Osha's role in the books because of her portrayal. Reeds or no Reeds, Natalia Tena ain't going nowhere, folks.

How many fans prefer show Osha over book Osha?

I've never actually cared for the show Osha beginning from the first encounter with the wildlings. These are proud people who call themselves the free folk and sneer at kneelers yet they all came across as very cringing like whipped dogs to me. Osha is always describes as standing straight and tall while being very direct and no nonsense. I just haven't been able to enjoy the show Osha, she's always seeming sly and sneaky the way she slouches and tilts her head and plays at words.

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You have a very Tyrion attitude on this subject.

Meant as a compliment, of course.

Thank you.

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Changing his story lines around because he's impressed with the actor playing her? Interesting.

I assume he's adding scenes to show her more or something

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How many fans prefer show Osha over book Osha?

I've never actually cared for the show Osha beginning from the first encounter with the wildlings. These are proud people who call themselves the free folk and sneer at kneelers yet they all came across as very cringing like whipped dogs to me. Osha is always describes as standing straight and tall while being very direct and no nonsense. I just haven't been able to enjoy the show Osha, she's always seeming sly and sneaky the way she slouches and tilts her head and plays at words.

I'm agnostic as which character is better, but I dig Natalia Tena, so I've just run with it. As to her seeming less proud, she did beg for her life similarly in the book as well after the wolves tore into her companions.

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You're welcome...just take it easy with the booze and whores, OK?

Har! Har!

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@ J.S. Crews

I think you're probably right, and I find it interesting that GRRM says he's including her more. Problem, though: If Osha becomes important in some way connected to Rickon in the story, its going to be tough for her to go North with Bran without changing that significantly; but if she stays with Rickon, she disappears.

Here's my solution: Lewin still dies, Osha still goes with Rickon. The Reeds are introduced post-sack, and we get new (non-book) scenes of Osha+Rickon+Cannibals. It might make the reveal later on, that Manderly knows where Rickon is, less surprising. But we the reader already knew Rickon was alive, so the surprise is that Manderly knows it at all. Here's hoping all the gnashing of teeth around here about the Reeds turns out to be much ado about nothing.

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