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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion


Ran
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Glad to hear Ramsay will be in it. But as a purist, this season has been painful. The show only uses the books as a guideline now. Don't say it's because of "budget." Last season stayed very close to the books, and a lot of plots/scenes have been added. Most of the dialogue in the show now never happened in the books.

If you are a true purist then why watch? Im relieved that I dont know whats going to happen next and most of the changes they have made still fit and keep it moving. In most cases I think they are imrovements. its an adaptation not a copy. I love the books too, dont get me wrong but the sooner I accepted this as a new telling I started liking it more and more. The best thing about the books is their unpredictability, and the show has it too.
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What the hell HBO? :shocked: Where is my ASOIAF???

When I saw that Tywin knew that Arya could read I couldn´t wait to come here to nitpick because the real Tywin would nevr have been so stupid not to realize that Arya had to be highborn, and because of the Jon and Ygritte scenes, but the last scene made all these gripes fade to oblivion :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: stolen dragons?

WTF, seriously WTF???

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Okay, so in relatively chronological order (as far as I can remember)...

The attack on Winterfell was great. I never really liked Bran, and always felt he was boring in the books, but I wanted to stand up and applaud him for his totally contemptuous treatment of Theon. His reactions to Ser Rodrik's death were also great. Hempstead-Wright is amping up his game, and I really hope he can stay on with the show even as he gets older. . . he's doing a fantastic job. As much as I loathe everything about Theon, Allen really played him quite well, especially the way his mouth quivered after Bran asked him if he had hated them the whole time.

Leslie's doing great as Ygritte, but the whole chase thing was a pointless waste of time. Like somebody else mentioned, I also for a second thought we'd get "you know nothing" when she said "you're stupid." Alas! Soon, I hope.

The riot... gods. I was honestly terrified. At first I was like, oh, this'll be some good fun and humiliation for Joffrey--but then Sansa's scene got a lot more intense, and I was getting worried by the chase. And then she was cornered in a room with nowhere to go! I honestly thought they were actually going to have her raped, I really did. Turner just sold it. Heart pounding, full of nervous fear for my favorite character--great acting, great camera work, and a near heart attack from me. I am floored at how graphic/close to an actual rape that they got. Tensest moment on a TV show for me. I've never been the Hound's biggest fan... but he literally arrived at the last second to save the day. Somebody give him a ****ing medal.

And another Joffrey slap! Yes.

Still concerned about "Talisa." I don't honestly think she's really Volantene, but the fact that both Catelyn and Robb could buy it is troubling, but not totally problematic. Just as every Targaryen didn't have the Valyrian look, nor should every single member of the Volantene aristocracy. You'd think somebody would at least ask, though.

I'm disturbed by Tywin being so forthcoming to his cupbearer. I don't mind them developing him, but the man was the biggest snob in the Seven Kingdoms. Remember what he did to poor Tysha? Come on. He wouldn't be so chatty with someone he thought a commoner. I'm fine with him finding her amusing, but not telling her family stories. Maisie Williams did a fantastic job with the Littlefinger scene though--these child actors are phenominal.

The Daenerys scenes... I'll wait and see what happens with the dragon-napping before commenting. I don't mind her being more assertive about her throne and her rights. Some people might see it as crazy (and it is, a little, perhaps) but I like it. I also liked the Spice King contrasting his way of life with hers. Different worlds. Most people would probably say he knocked her down a peg, but I'd say he just proved himself to be a small-minded fool.

Shae's scene with Sansa was great. Development for both characters done in an artful way.

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What the hell HBO? :shocked: Where is my ASOIAF???

When I saw that Tywin knew that Arya could read I couldn´t wait to come here to nitpick because the real Tywin would nevr have been so stupid not to realize that Arya had to be highborn, and because of the Jon and Ygritte scenes, but the last scene made all these gripes fade to oblivion :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: stolen dragons?

WTF, seriously WTF???

why should he know she is highborn? All he knows is that she knows how to read. Also, in the books Arya is as sharp as a whip and I must say that Tywin makes several stupid moves. Like thinking Rob would actually send acurate word of his advance. Or not recognizing Tyrions genius years before and utilizing him effectivly. He's not a genius of a man, just a rich one.
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I can't believe they killed Amory Lorch! That is just more bullshit!

Now not only has Arya's scene with The Tickler in Season 3 been lost, now we'll never get to see Lorch being thrown in the bear pit! Ugh god, they have really messed Arya's story. The whole Tywin's cupbearer keeps her out of the dirt and takes away an important part of her story, that she is alone in the commoners world. What's next?! Cutting the Weasel Soup?.... oh dear hell. If they cut the Weasel Soup I will be convinced that Arya's story has been ruined this season.

Do not care for the Dragons being stolen. Would it have been so difficult to just have her decide to visit the Warlocks after her meetings ended in failure, EXACTLY AS SHE DID IN THE BOOK.

The whole Talisa issue is just off. How hard is it to introduce Jeyne Westerling as the noble who comforts Robb after Bran and Rickon's "deaths" and then after the Red Wedding have Tywin reveal that he and Jeyne's mother plotted the entire thing to make Robb lose the Freys.

Littlefinger is at Harrenhal now? But he was just at the Tyrell camp which should take at least a few days of travel between the two. The man is everywhere, but I think the story can hold on without Littlefinger entering and making some smart-ass quips.

Very bad episode imo. Too many changes for pointless reasons. I can understand changes that help the books fit into a screen adaption but not meaningless changes like the ones above.

LotN

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Not my favorite episode. Definitley had some good moments, mostly the first scene of Theon taking Winterfell, but I really feel like this whole season has been rushed. Characters are zooming throughout Westeros, and a lot of the scenes from the book seem to just happen on screen with very little setup.

Things I enjoyed:

--Theon taking Winterfell. This seemed pretty close to the book, adn while Theon doesnt kill Rodrik, that change made sense, even if it is a bit odd that he's the only one they captured from Torrhen's square.

--Ygritte. Looks and plays teh part well I thought.

--More Hound. Finally he has some decent screentime, though they overdid the gore a bit on his killing of the rioters.

Changes I'm not a fan of:

--Too much Littlefinger. God, he's in every episode from some reason. And where the fuck is Varys? He hasn't been on the show since episode 3 I think; instead they're using all their time on Littlefinger. Didn't care for the suspense in the "will he recognize Arya" scene, adn the stuff he converses with Tywin about was pretty redundant.

--Qhorin. Actor is fine, but I'm not really liking the lines they're giving him. In the book it become clear he left Jon alone with Ygritte to see what he would do and know him better from his choice of action. Here, I'm not really sure why they left Jon alone, or why such a great tracker as Qhorion coudln't find Jon after his chase. Which brings me to

--Jon sparing Ygritte. This didn't make a whole lot of sense. I didn't think he missed his swing, but then if not, why did he start chasing her? Wasn't that swing on teh rock a signal he was letting her go? Plus, the time used on the chase is kinda wasted, and as I mentioned above, it doesn't make sense that Qhorin and the rest haven't found Jon. He didn't go that far.

--Death of Amory Lorch. I don't really care that they killed him off early, but I wasn't a fan of how he went. Too comical, and the whole thing with Arya stealing hte letter just feels like manufactured tension. Much prefer the assassinations that look like accidents from the book, not Lorch just falling over dead with a dart in his neck after knocking on Tywin's door.

--Dany's dragons being stolen. Another manufactured cliffhanger ending. Getting a little sick of these, and I kind of feel like this show is turning too much into True Blood, with cliffhangers at every ending and just big events happening with little character development. This is partly because they don't have time with only ten episodes, but they still could have spent hte time better. Too much time with Dany in Qarth, adn I was rolling my eyes at her long, rambling speech to the Spice guy.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. "Manufactured tension" is the theme of this season, it seems. The Craster cliffhanger, Arya stealing the letter, and now the dragons being stolen... stupid and unnecessary.

Oh, did anyone else find that Sansa was out of character with Shae? The last time they spoke she completely distrusted her (and with good reason). Sansa didn't trust anyone in King's Landing. And now she starts trusting Shae and needs to be reminded, by Shae herself, to not trust anyone? Meh.

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I loved this episode. The storylines were juggled nicely and the episode just flew by. The changes worked for me. The taking of Winterfell really surprised me as a starter, but it was a really intense chapter, especially for Theon. The only thing that felt a bit rushed there was that they put the (apparent) escape from Winterfell in the same episode.

At Harrenhal the Tywin/Arya interactions might be out of character for Tywin, but they help explain why Arya doesn't choose Tywin for her next victim. For the show it made sense to have Littlefinger negotiate the Lannister/Tyrell alliance on both ends, but since we have no real measure of time passing on the show it really feels as if he's everywhere.

Great introduction of Ygritte, although they expanded it quite a bit and deviated from the book. But in my opinion the great Icelandic vistas made it all worthwhile.

The riot scene and the aftermath were great, especially Tyrion still in shock and in dwarf-rage at the same time, and of course the Hound. My only gripe with this is that apparently all horses in King's Landing have already been eaten. Why would the king's procession be on foot? Okay, budget, animals on set, all difficult to handle, but no horses at all?

Finally, Dany's storyline got a twist which I really liked. Stealing the dragons is a major deviation from the books, but seeing as everyone wants her dragons, it still seems plausible. Saving her children from the warlocks adds to the urgency for the mother of dragons to go there. Also, I was under the impression that they pitched the dragons' screams to sound a bit like crying babies. Or am I imagining things?

In my opinion strongest episode so far.

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I don't know why people are picking on Littlefinger ending up at Harrenhal. He left the Tyrell camp within a day of Catelyn, and Catelyn reaches Robb in the westerlands this episode, an even further distance. The show has decided to not bother at all with trying to make sense of travel or suggest the passage of time.

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I don't know why people are picking on Littlefinger ending up at Harrenhal. He left the Tyrell camp within a day of Catelyn, and Catelyn reaches Robb in the westerlands this episode, an even further distance. The show has decided to not bother at all with trying to make sense of travel or suggest the passage of time.

I suppose you have a point but to be honest I didn't like Catelyn reaching Robb's camp so soon either. In fact I didn't like Catelyn reaching Robb's camp, period....
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Oh, did anyone else find that Sansa was out of character with Shae? The last time they spoke she completely distrusted her (and with good reason). Sansa didn't trust anyone in King's Landing. And now she starts trusting Shae and needs to be reminded, by Shae herself, to not trust anyone? Meh.

Yeah, that was a bit odd.. I liked her questions about why the rapists hated her, but the bit about her trusting Shae is ridiculous. She was smart enough to play the act with Tyrion, who saved her, she should be smart enough to play act here too.

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I agree with pretty much everything you said. "Manufactured tension" is the theme of this season, it seems. The Craster cliffhanger, Arya stealing the letter, and now the dragons being stolen... stupid and unnecessary.

Oh, did anyone else find that Sansa was out of character with Shae? The last time they spoke she completely distrusted her (and with good reason). Sansa didn't trust anyone in King's Landing. And now she starts trusting Shae and needs to be reminded, by Shae herself, to not trust anyone? Meh.

I didn't have a problem with that. Considering what Sansa had just gone through, it doesn't seem implausible that she'd turn to her servant for comfort/questions. It's good that they're giving her some screentime; she's really been shortchanged this season. I'm not even sure if she'll meet Dontos this season; she should have met him before the part where Joffrey has her beaten.

I don't know, I kind of feel like the writers are just trying too hard to make the story more interesting and dramatic and are ignoring setup adn character development. Frankly, ten episodes was just not nearly enough time for this book, especially with all the stuff they're adding to it. They're hitting most of the key plot points and events, but losing out on all the little moments and sublteties that work so well in the book. Sometimes it does feel like episodes are just a random collection of scenes from differnet characters.

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The dragon stealing was probably the biggest departure from the books so far. My first thought was that it was the warlocks, though what was that tower? Could that be the house of the undying?

I see they decided to portray Robb's affair with Jayne. Of course that makes no sense. Book Robb married her because he slept with her. The whole point was that it was a spur of the moment thing. By portraying this as a long affair the show makes Robb look stupid. He knows he shouldn't betray the Freys and still he does it. Makes the RW almost well deserved.

Same with Jon. The whole point of his defection was that Qhorin ordered him to go with them and do whatever they asked of him. Now he's apparently lost with Ygrette and she takes him to Mance herself.

Seeing Tywin Lannister, Hand of the King, Warden of the West, the Queen's father, richest and most powerful man in all the Seven Kingdom's doing psychotherapy sessions with a 10 year old lowborn servant girl was bizarre to say the least. I know this is Hollywood but at least try to make the show look believable.

The best parts of the episode were no doubt in Winterfell. It was interesting to see how Theon is pressured by his men into becoming a tyrant. In the book it kinda came natural to him. I probably prefer this version though I will now not be able to hate this Theon with quite the same passion. Only complaints I have (besides the obvious ones about shortening every scene) are Rodrick apparently going from Winterfell to Torrhen's square, retaking it, then coming back at the same time that it took Theon to get to Winterfell once, and Theon started earlier. Might be a nitpick but it's this kind of things that hurt the immersion in the story. And where's Bolton's bastard? Without him there will have to be major changes to Theon's story too.

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A pity that the riot scene did not involve horses. They would have added a lot. Budgets are a sad reality.

I honestly doubt it would have been budget, but it would have been HELL to film that scene with horses + having to do it take after take. Horses scare Really easy, the show "Luck" learned that the hard way. Also if the narrow setting of the riot was a real place and not a set/stage(although that creates a Whole new set of problems) if even one horse got spooked it could trample countless extras/cameras/sets.

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My $0.02

I definately fall in the best episode yet this season camp. I have concerns, but I enjoy the show greatly.

Obviously there are more deviations from the book this season compared to last. I respect the right/need to make some changes for television. My only complaint is that they are jarring. they take me out of the story for a moment when I think... "wait, that didn't happen". That said I think there are some situations where people take it too far, nitpicking details like, "they were on horsees", and other situations were I agree things are unnecessary like the Jon chases Ygritte scene. I love love love this show, same with the books, but they are two different things. For me it's just important that they get the major touchstones right. They haven't failed yet, but there are things I am concerned about. Weasel soup is the nearest of those concerns on the horizon. But more about the epi...

I agree with those who say that Theon is much more sympathetic in the show than the books. In the books I didn't truly start to like him until he lept from the walls of Winterfell. In the show you see the characters conflicted loyalties much more clearly. Maybe its the actor but regardless I look forward to Theon scenes while in the book his chapters where not the ones I was overjoyed about. similar with Sansa. For some reason I find her much more interesting in the show. Her silent, patient struggle is much more compelling on the screen than on the page.... wait, sidetrack... the epi...

The capture of Winterfell was well done all around. No problem with Roderick tacking the many hacked beheading. Some things just have to be condensed. And yes the look on Theon's face after was priceless. Man poor Rickon is gonna be one messed up little shit by the time Davos gets to him. The things this kid has seen and been through. I still laugh thinking about him cracking nuts last week.

Loved the riot scene although it didn't seem as desperate or chaotic as in the books. Im not sure what I liked better, the Hounds rescue of Sansa or Tyrion chewing out Joff. Joff is certainly a viscious idiot!

I become more and more ok with the Roose/Tywin switch everytime Arya and Tywin are on screen. some say "oh, he would never talk to a cupbearer....". Since we don't get a Tywin pov Im not sure anyone truly has that much insight to his personality. I do however hate the way Littlefinger is frickin everywhere. If he's traveling all across Westeros how the hell is he arranging Sansa's escape with Dontos. Which by the way is sorely missing. There has been no establishment of a Godswood in KL, nor of Sansa praying. Why intro Dontos in the first ep and then throw him in a closet til next year....? Anyway, way to much Littlefinger and not enough Varys, in my opinion.

Yes the nurse girl form Volantis will be Jeyne Westerling. Im suprised Robb didn't say; "hello Mother, nice to see you, and by the way who is that giant woman dressed like a knight who seems to be following you?" You would think it would spark some curiosity.

I got giddy as a schoolgirl when Roose suggested sending his bastard to take back Winterfell!

My only problem with Arya's kill #2 is that her attitude, the way she commanded Jaqen and her carelessness in stealing the note in the first place, do not seem like qualities that would make him want to send her off to the faceless men for training. On screen though, the way they did the scene, I thought it made good tv.

One last gripe. In that big open northern waste, Qhorin had left Jon like two minutes before Ygritte ran off. They would still be like right there when he was chasing her. Ok 2 last gripes. Why hasn't the open ing map taken us beyond the wall to the fist of the first men? Seems silly not to.

As we approach the end of the season I am looking forward to the arrival of Arstan Whitebeard and Strong Belwas. But I am wondering how the will desguise Ser Barristan for the tv audience since obviously we will be able to see him.

Great epi, great show!

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why should he know she is highborn? All he knows is that she knows how to read.

the show makes it clear, just ten seconds earlier, that not even many highborn MEN ( and and high-ranking army commanders) know how to read well, how likely is that a peasant can, much less a girl child?

I did not like this episode at all, there were more plotholes than plot.

I did not like Ygritte´s "escape", so pontless and ridiculous, same as Dany´s speech to the spice king. She came across like she was about ready to be signed into a mental institution, so hysterical and over the top.

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Jesus guys, Ramsay is NOT GOING TO BE DAGMER.

Roose said my bastard is at the dreadfort, not the iron islands. Ramsay will be someone new, stop a worryin! :)

Also, I hope Snow gets back to the lads and doesn't join the wildlings straight away, that scene where with Snow and Qhorin is crucial. I also wanna see the other members of the watch get killed off as they retreat.

Love the episode. Funny seeing the wedding ring on the guy who talked back to Theon before Cassel turned up.

I like Jeyne Westerling insinuating being a spy ;) should be interesting to see how that turns out. I know if I was Rhob I would be under her spell too.

Edited by Cellio
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