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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion


Ran
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Well... after this last episode, I guess next week we'll see lord Tywin burn down Harrenhall and everyone in it.

I love the actors. Their performances are amazing.

But I feel the producers are destroying characters, cutting away at their essence.

I can get past the fact that BLACK Lorren is blonde. But why do they have to mess with lord Tywin?

He's a masterpiece of a character. George R. R. Martin constructed him perfectly, a hard, family man, always wanting to win, not wanting to make any compromises. From the books I only know lord Tywin to lose his cool once - "They have my son!".

And now I see him looking like a combination between a spolied brat and an old woman, always shouting and humiliating people.

Lord Tywin does not humiliate you.

How do you know? We never witnessed his war councils in ACoK. We never read about him continuously receiving humiliating news from the war. We don't know how he reacted to that.

He already had the friggin' Mountain out there terrorizing the small folk, "Setting the Riverlands on fire, from the God's Eye to the Red Fork"

What more could he have done? Burning Harrenhal down? What for? No one cares about that pile of rocks. Least of all the people living there.

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Great episode

- Jon and Ygritte spooning. I lol'd.

- Tywin since he arrived at Harrenhal is reminding me of a DragonBall Z story arc. He spending multiple episodes in the same room discussing battle strategy is like Goku spending multiple episodes powering up. Tywin is about to ascend to "Super Lannister 3"

- I like the contrast of Theon and Ned in the decapitations. Ned took care of it like a Soldier and a Man. Theon looked like a kid playing war.

- The Dragons getting stolen adds a bit of excitement to Danys story. Its been stalled pretty much since the funeral pryre. I dont see how this cancels the visions in the HOTU.

- The Hound was great this episode. Although im slightly disconcerted that Sandor appears like a giant while Gregor a few epsiodes looked like an average dude. I realize that book hound is a big dude too, but the difference isnt great enough in the TV series IMO.

Forgive my mis-memory as I read the first four books one after another, but doesnt Jamie do SOMETHING in ACOK? Like Anything?

Edited by blasted_saber
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Some thoughts on episode six:

  • The fall of Winterfell was perhaps even more sudden here than in the book.
  • Theon is a real a*****e! As Rodrik said, he's truly lost now, and deserves every bad thing that comes his way.
  • Speaking of Rodrik, he met an earlier, and gruesome, death, and at the inept hands of Theon no less. That's why there are professional executioners.
  • Even if we haven't seen how it plays out, it seems that Jon Snow's defection to the Wildlings will be more accidental than planned by Qorin. If so, I don't like it. It takes away from Jon's sacrifice. And how can a little bit of running take him so far off from his brothers in the Night's Watch?
  • No stupid sex scenes, if you don't count nekkid Tonks.
  • The Littlefinger/Tywin scene lacked suspense since it's made up and we know from the books that he never saw Arya at Harrenhal.
  • But Amory Lorch got an earlier death, like the Tickler did. I have to say that this Arya choses her deaths from Jaqen better than book Arya.
  • In the riot of King's Landing, Sansa got a lot closer to being raped. I still miss a proper talk between her and the Hound.
  • Yay, another slapping of Joffrey! Ten points to Gryffindor... I mean Tyrion Lannister!
  • I suppose Talisa will be revealed as Jeyne Westerling. Good.
  • Totally new scenes with Dany and the abduction of her dragons. I suppose this will substitute the House of Undying scenes from the book. I can understand they wanted to avoid that since those visions would be very spoilerish, much like they never showed Ned Stark's flashbacks from the Tower of Joy.
  • So now Irri is dead? I really, really hope Doreah will remain alive.
  • Now I think it's safe to say that we will not see any Reed siblings, or Riverrun and the Blackfish (at least not this season). A pity, I was looking forward to Riverrun.

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How did Roose know that Theon had killed Ser Rodrik? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luwin's raven says the following: "Ironmen have taken Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy in command."

This was sent before Theon had killed Rodrik, when Luwin was desperately getting his raven off mid-takeover. Yet Roose knows that he's dead, despite (presumably) only reading the above.

Sup?

Theon thought that Maester Luwin would obey him as Lord of Winterfell. He may not have guarded him and therefore Luwin was able to send more ravens...Or, he may have actually asked him to announce his conquest of Winterfell.

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Forgive my mis-memory as I read the first four books one after another, but doesnt Jamie do SOMETHING in ACOK? Like Anything?

No. The actor has actually noted that the producers have been nice/smart enough to move material from SOS into this season to give him something to do in the upcoming episodes.

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Forgive my mis-memory as I read the first four books one after another, but doesnt Jamie do SOMETHING in ACOK? Like Anything?

Jaime is barely in ACOK (shows up in catelyn's last POV, I believe), but there is a mention of an escape attempt, so we should see that in the show. I remember reading the book-- waiting and waiting for Jaime to show up--and being very disappointed.

On a separate subject, Someone else mentioned it, but I was annoyed that they made Myrcella cry. I loved the part of Tyrion's POV where he thinks that Myrcella Baratheon is a born princess and didn't cry at all (and comforted Tommen) when she went away. I think she'll turn out to be the best and bravest of the Lannisters.

Also, I found myself wondering if TV-Arya would have been better off revealing herself to TV-Tywin. He seems like the type who is sensible. Therefore, he would keep her a hostage, but well protected, for Jaime's sake. Just wondering...

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Yeah, but I always assumed he was just trampled to death or beaten up by a lynch mob. That whole zombie-like ripping scene was beyond cheesy and retarded. A human arm just doesn't get torn off like that, for crying out loud. When the mob started snarling like zombies, I snorted in derision and thought, "what's this, a Romero movie?". When the arm came off I just had to laugh. Idiotic.

I never clocked that until you mentioned it. Not all of us are so observant. And that's the thing. These issues are nitpicks, not grand problems as you make them out to be. I personally loved this episode and only started noticing a lot of the continuity/silly stuff when I came on here. Come on guys, let's calm down.

Speaking of cheesy gore, while I enjoyed Sandor trouncing those would-be rapists (I mean it's hard to NOT enjoy the Hound kicking ass), the guts spilling out was just stupid. Gore like that belongs in a zombie flick, not Game of Thrones. It looked goofy and cartoonish.

If you say so. See above.

Agreed! Thank you. And THANK YOU for pointing out the sheer idiocy of the Jon/Ygritte scene. Oh my fucking god, that was retarded and pointless and nerd-rage inducing. You know, I get that the show needs to cut, to adapt, blah blah blah, budget, constraint, TV format, etc. But nothing, nothing whatsoever justified this change. It was not only longer than it needed to be, it made no sense. The only reason I can think of is to make Jon look like a complete fucktard. Ugh.

This just looks like needless cynicism. I don't really got what your problem is on this one...? It's just a rant about... what? I found the scene quite sweet, the lines showed Jon's vulnerability and self-doubt and their chemistry worked well. I can see their scenes later being really good. And I didn't have a problem with the fact that there was an element of comedy, it doesn't have to be 100% serious all of the time.

Also, the whole "Dany needs something to do" notion needs to die. Dany has 5 chapters in ACoK, so what? We hardly see Jaime either. Or Barristan. We don't see Lysa at all til the end of ASoS. Theon is not at all in A Storm of Swords. They already gutted Bran's storyline, why would they need to add

to Dany's? It will be inevitable that some actors/characters have fewer appearances or screen time for prolonged periods of time due to how the story is written. Or are you people gonna encourage them to invent arbitrary storylines for Theon in Season 3 when we all know that he does nothing except being tortured and broken by Ramsay?

Dany was a popular figure in the first series, and was marketed as one of the main characters in S1. You cannot just throw her away for a season and expect non-book fans to just accept it. It's TV suicide. I personally think the weakest part of the season 2 has been not developing her story even sooner. She was the main character in book 2 that needed her story accelerated for the show to be honest.

And I dread to see what will happen with Robb. There was nothing wrong with him taking an arrow wound, getting feverish and being "nursed" to health by Jeyne. It made sense, and also, Catelyn wasn't around to remind him of his duty. They made that storyline just far less believable already.

Now you're just being pessimistic. There's nout wrong with the scenes they've put in either. Why not trust the writers and see where it goes?

I was really looking forward to the House of the Undying, because I figured it was their opportunity to show flashbacks and visions. But now I'm dreading the whole thing. I have no reason to trust in the writers and I am expecting the whole thing to suck. Hey, that way I won't be disappointed, and if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised...

*Cough*

Don't mean to be a twat, and just nitpick all your nitpicks, but seriously. Dare I say purist? ....

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Some things bothered me in this episode, mainly important changes concerning the characters .Tywin for obvious reasons . Arya being so peaceful and undisturbed by Tywin's side I wonder how non readers are going to understand what she becomes later if this goes on. It seemed to me that it was really important that she doesn't get to have this kind of "comfortable" (when compared to what she goes through) environment during her journey to understand her evolution. Jon being ,again, an annoying idiot and what the hell are they doing to his storyline? I just hope people arguing that they're just giving him time with Ygritte and they'll eventually resume the course of events as we know it are right.

On the other hand, I liked the riot scene even thought I found the gore parts sort of ridiculous (torn arm and entrails ) , the interaction between Arya and Jaqen was funny and I'm perfectly fine with Dany's portrayal thought I'm sceptical about the dragon stealing.

But in fact I'm ready to ignore it all and mark this episode as one of my favorites because of the first scene alone. I just loved every single bit of it, be it Theon, Bran, Ser Rodrick or Master Luwin ,the actors were all perfect. It was so powerful , well-written and greatly acted that for me it makes up for all the rest.

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My thoughts, on what I found to be the best episode of the series so far (like last series, E06 is where everything starts to happen!)

- Sacking of Winterfell. All happened a bit fast, but that's good. Loved hoe Theon took charge, or at least tried. Then had people taking the piss, and it showed that he's basically still a joke. Which is all good. And goodbye Ser Rodrik. Loved his final words, especially 'I'll be seeing your father soon', or whatever that was, brought a little tear to my eye. I like Dagmer as well.

- Osha and the escaping was done well...also, Natalia Tena has the best body on the show...hands down...

- Dany. They've done well creating some interest around what was a boring storyline. It's being well acted by all, very much liking XXD

- Qhorin is awesome, liked his scenes. While Jon and Ygritte is playing out as I'd like, Rose Leslie will be a good addition, though as I love redheads she can do virtually no wrong in my eyes....

- Kings Landing - Loved those scenes. The hound, that BAMF, take a bow my son, take a bow, that was awesome! This is what I've been waiting to see. Sophie Turner did well also, while loved how Tyrion and Joff interacted, especially the massive slap!

- Arya. Liked the interaction with Tywin, Maisie and Charles play off each other very well. Also, more Jaqen is fine by me.

Edit:

How can I forget....RAMSAY IS IN!!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Edited by Chalkius Stark
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Did anyone else hear Talisa say her last name was Maegi (or sounded something very much like that)? What do you think this means for Robb breaking his vows/Red Wedding storyline and the conjecture surrounding that?

I've seen it spelled Maegyr, which is perfectl Valyrian/Volantene sounding, if true.

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As far as the letter Arya takes, this is what I've been able to make out from it

Marching ten thousand west to Lannisport _____

the tooth. Estimate to reach you by week's end. Sco___

Robb Stark moving troops south by coast __ __ will ___

turn east at Silverhill

Now I can't see this as being from either Talisa or Roose, because why would they mention Robb in the middle of the letter? The whole letter would be about what Robb is doing if it were either of them. I think it has to be from some other Lannister force, the remnants of Stafford's host I suppose, who are talking about what they are doing and then what their scouts report Robb is doing. But we're surely supposed to be suspecting Talisa.

I think Arya takes it because she thinks she can use the info to find her way to Robb, not to try to hide it from Tywin.

Irri :( I really liked what they did with Qarth last episode, especially the whole interaction between Dany, Irri, and Doreah, so I'm pissed about Irri being killed. I'll be even more mad if Doreah was part of it and she dies too. I'm okay with the dragons being taken though.

I thought the KL riot scene was well done, except the arm being ripped off which was just silly. Surprised they showed Sansa's almost rape.

I'm not on board with the changes to Jon's story, but have to admit that Ygritte's wiggling made up for it.

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According to ancient astronaut theorists, Littlefinger must be an extraterrestrial who can make Einstein-Rosen bridges to travel Westeros.

At least if LF is travelling, we don't have to see him in the brothel!

I think they are softening Tywin to set up the RW. If non book reading audiences start to think he's not so bad it will be very shocking that he orchestrates a cold blooded murder.

Perhaps Talisa/Jeyne is being forced to participate in this scam like Roslin Frey? If she doesn't know about the assasination plot, she can admit shes a spy, profess her love etc. Robb could marry her to keep her safe so she can run away from home. This way she can be a spy and still fall in love with him. That would be ok with me, but they need some better dialogue. You can get cheesy romance anywhere.

As to the Jon/Ygritte chase scene, sure it was pointless but it took up one minute and doesn't change the story arc. Is it worth all this upset?

Why does Roose saying Ramsay is at the Dreadfort mean he can't be Dagmer? Roose has to tell the truth all of a sudden? Roose could have sent a raven to Ramsay as soon as Theon departs for the Iron Islands and Ramsay could have hurried over there. It requires a bit of a plot stretch to imagine that none of the Ironborn noticed he was a stranger but oh well.

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Hats off to whoever came up with Dagmer=Ramsay.

That's brilliant. It makes perfect sense. Dagmer already seems to take over Reeks function at Theon's side. And it would explain why they didn't cast Ramsay. They actually did, right under our noses. Sneaky bastards.

...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O

She needed to be free. That way she wasn't locked up under guard

So why not do it like in the book, where she says "give me a spear" and kicks a guy in the bollocks and Theon is impressed at her fierceness? Oh that's right, no boobies that way.

Almost every change that has been made is an improvement on the source material and makes for a tighter more interesting show.

What. I just... ah.... I just can't believe there are people like that. Wow. Inconsistent characters, plot holes, gratuitous sex and lazy writing > ASoIaF. Okay...

And Jon chased Ygritte for any of many reasons not the least of which is to prevent her from warning the free folk, and because he was supposed to have killed her.

And how is he going to prevent her from doing that without, y'know, killing her?

Rockroi is completely correct, the scene made no sense and was badly written. It was also very cheesy. I think it's by far the worst part of the episode.

I had to post this on it's own. Why do half of you people even watch the damn show? So you can comlain about every episode? Get over it! IT"S JUST A TV SHOW! Would you rather know everything thats going to happen, scene by scene. Like previously said: Get over it or get a girlfriend.

"Why do you post here? So you can complain about complaints? Get over it! IT'S JUST A MESSAGE BOARD! Get over it and get a girlfriend."

I never clocked that until you mentioned it. Not all of us are so observant. And that's the thing. These issues are nitpicks, not grand problems as you make them out to be. I personally loved this episode and only started noticing a lot of the continuity/silly stuff when I came on here. Come on guys, let's calm down.

Erm, what? You didn't notice the zombie mob, the arm flying off and the guts spilling out? I didn't notice it on a re-watch or anything, I only saw the episode once and I'm not the most acutely observant of watchers. It was right there.

This just looks like needless cynicism. I don't really got what your problem is on this one...? It's just a rant about... what? I found the scene quite sweet, the lines showed Jon's vulnerability and self-doubt and their chemistry worked well. I can see their scenes later being really good. And I didn't have a problem with the fact that there was an element of comedy, it doesn't have to be 100% serious all of the time.

Rockroi already explained why the scene was stupid. Basically, if Jon meant to spare her (and we know he did, he didn't "miss" that sword swing), why was he chasing her? He wasn't going to kill her. He wasn't going to follow her all the way to the wildling camp. He wasn't going to take her back as prisoner to Qhorin, since Qhorin would have killed her. Even if you want to make Jon an indecisive moron (which is a crappy thing to do to the character), the scene still doesn't make sense.

Now you're just being pessimistic. There's nout wrong with the scenes they've put in either. Why not trust the writers and see where it goes?

Why would I trust them when I've found their writing to be lamentable as far as these things are concerned? I'm only pessimistic because they keep making stupid decisions.

Don't mean to be a twat, and just nitpick all your nitpicks, but seriously. Dare I say purist? ....

Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those.

Edited by Morrigan
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This was the best episode of the season so far for me. So much awesomeness from the very beginning to the end!

The Good:

I freaking squealed out loud at Roose's mention of his bastard at the Dreadfort. YES! Ramsay is coming. Maybe not this season, but he surely is coming...and I can't wait to meet that sick bastard fuck on tv. :devil:

Fucking loved Ygritte. The actress looks great and she really sold herself as Ygritte to me. She's so adorable in her big furs. Ygritte, my girl.. can't blame her for trying. :cool4: She cracked me up with her grinding and Jon's reaction to her was priceless. I adored this couple in the books and so far I'm already loving them on the show.

I'm totally digging Dany's side plot. Its interesting and Emilia would have gone to waste this season if they kept her story by the book, being that she didn't really have a whole lot except the HotU. I wonder if Doreah betrayed her...I'm sad that Irri died because I liked her :frown5: . I like the sassy spice king. I do love Dany, but its good to not have everybody immediately kiss her ass just because she's a Targ, has dragons, etc... I also find Xaro ten times much more interesting and appealing on the show, than in the book. He annoyed the hell out of me in the books.

Theon taking Winterfell was heart-wrenching and conflicting for me. I was so sad for Bran and Rickon and their actors really sold their grief and despair at loosing Ser Rodrik(who went out like a boss). It was conflicting because Theon being a fav of mine, I still hated seeing this happen. He was so stupid, desperate, pathetic, and unnecessarily brutal, yet I can still see the very deep, sad, and human motives for his gigantic and consecutive fuck ups. Also:

Also: Oh, hi Brienne! Tywin and Arya continue to rock. Jaqen continues to be a sexy beast. Sandor saving Sansa... :love:.

The Bad:

Alas, there was no "Brotherfucker!". I really wanted that included, but oh well, at least Joff gets the shit thrown in his face. No shirtless Genry or Jaqen bath scene... :drool:

The Shallow:

Robb is hot and Talisa/Jeyne/whatever is pretty. That's all I gotta say about that.

Jaqen is freaking smoldering!(In case I forgot to say that)

Dagmer has a sexy voice :leaving:

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Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those.

agreed. there are good changes and bad changes. the last few weeks have had some mindboggling decisions. what they've done with robb and jon have kinda robbed their characters of what was good about them.

in the book, robb sacrificed his own honor to uphold that of another, after making a mistake in a moment on understandable weakness. now he's betraying his country because he's infatuated with a fieldhand. awesome.

and oh god was that mob scene poorly done. walking dead bad.

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...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O

The theory was based on the fact that Dagmer comes up to Theon after the rest of the crew leaves him for the boat and only then introduces himself as first mate, then proceeds to manipulate Theon into completely changing his plans. If Theon calls him first mate when they get on the boat the rest of the crew has no reason to argue the point.

It's far fetched, but less crackpot than many theories. Far more likely Dagmer is just filling the role of Reek.

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Are they getting rid of the whole Khalasar? It looks like everyone was murdered. I can't wait to see the house of the undying go up in flames. Who steals baby dragons from their Mother? "Do not wake the dragon." Blood and fire will follow. And Dany started to sound like Viserys--almost whiny. I love her!

What was the point of Jon chasing Ygritte around? I was was hoping Ghost would appear and tackle her. That would have been fun. At least I was hoping to hear "You know nothing Jon Snow." That would have been the perfect way to end the scene!

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Are they getting rid of the whole Khalasar?

What was the point of Jon chasing Ygritte around? I was was hoping Ghost would appear and tackle her. That would have been fun.

I was totally thinking the same thing for both of these. Was just waiting for some Ghost on Wildling action.

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Ok, last random comment but one thing I thought was a nice touch -- it seemed like the Hound was trying to spare Sansa the worst of the gore. Like, he spun the guys around to slit throats/disembowel, so Sansa wouldn't get sprayed in the face. Awwwwww.

And I loved Tyrion's like when he yelled at Joffrey "You owe him a lot you know!" hahahahaha.

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