[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

[SerMixalot]

best part of the beheading was theon finishing it by kicking the head off the body

[SerMixalot]

is it me or do the dragons seem to small to burn down the HotU. Last week they could barely charbroil a piece of meat

[Leuf]

is it me or do the dragons seem to small to burn down the HotU. Last week they could barely charbroil a piece of meat

I was thinking that too. They delayed "dracarys", and then Dany hasn't been in Qarth long enough for them to grow. Maybe the three of them together will cross the streams Ghostbusters style. Or Drogon was just holding back because he likes his meat medium rare.

[PhoenixFlame]

A cigarette can start a forest fire...

[legba11]

is it me or do the dragons seem to small to burn down the HotU. Last week they could barely charbroil a piece of meat

i think part of the the abduction by the warlocks is that their magic will age the dragons a bit, so they are more impressive for their needed roles in the slave cities.

[Darth Pipes]

This was the best episode of the season so far for me. So much awesomeness from the very beginning to the end!

The Good:

I freaking squealed out loud at Roose's mention of his bastard at the Dreadfort. YES! Ramsay is coming. Maybe not this season, but he surely is coming...and I can't wait to meet that sick bastard fuck on tv. :devil:

Fucking loved Ygritte. The actress looks great and she really sold herself as Ygritte to me. She's so adorable in her big furs. Ygritte, my girl.. can't blame her for trying. :cool4: She cracked me up with her grinding and Jon's reaction to her was priceless. I adored this couple in the books and so far I'm already loving them on the show.

I'm totally digging Dany's side plot. Its interesting and Emilia would have gone to waste this season if they kept her story by the book, being that she didn't really have a whole lot except the HotU. I wonder if Doreah betrayed her...I'm sad that Irri died because I liked her :frown5: . I like the sassy spice king. I do love Dany, but its good to not have everybody immediately kiss her ass just because she's a Targ, has dragons, etc... I also find Xaro ten times much more interesting and appealing on the show, than in the book. He annoyed the hell out of me in the books.

Theon taking Winterfell was heart-wrenching and conflicting for me. I was so sad for Bran and Rickon and their actors really sold their grief and despair at loosing Ser Rodrik(who went out like a boss). It was conflicting because Theon being a fav of mine, I still hated seeing this happen. He was so stupid, desperate, pathetic, and unnecessarily brutal, yet I can still see the very deep, sad, and human motives for his gigantic and consecutive fuck ups. Also:

Also: Oh, hi Brienne! Tywin and Arya continue to rock. Jaqen continues to be a sexy beast. Sandor saving Sansa... :love:.

The Bad:

Alas, there was no "Brotherfucker!". I really wanted that included, but oh well, at least Joff gets the shit thrown in his face. No shirtless Genry or Jaqen bath scene... :drool:

The Shallow:

Robb is hot and Talisa/Jeyne/whatever is pretty. That's all I gotta say about that.

Jaqen is freaking smoldering!(In case I forgot to say that)

Dagmer has a sexy voice :leaving:

So instead of Winter is Coming, Ramsay is Coming! That is a hell of a lot scarier than winter...

Yeah, I can't believe they didn't belt out a "Brotherfucker" line either. Cersei was noticably absent once they were all pulled to safety.

I just want to single out Donald Sumpter, who is doing a tremendous job with the role of Maester Luwin and as one poster mentioned, has brought a ton of humanity to the role. Whatever the fate of TV Luwin is, it will be a loss for the show not to see him again.

[Impfan]

IGU! WITFWI “SIAP”?

SIAP is not on the list you linked to.

ROFLMAO!!!!

[Planetary]

Great episode. For those of us who have read the books, keep in mind that we have absolutely no reference point for people who know the story only from the TV show. It's very easy to forget how lost or overwhelmed people can get with a cast this big, a story that hops around so much, and all the things that are left unsaid in dialogue but are present only in the little details.

The HBO folks get those little details right the vast majority of the time. And when they change something, it's almost always for the sake of leaner, more efficient storytelling. That's the reality of a 10-episode season.

Regarding the raging over Roose and Ramsay, the changes are necessary. The audience has to see that Roose Bolton is Robb's bannerman and supporter, otherwise no one will care that some random dude they've never seen before goes and betrays Robb. The writers have managed to kill two birds with one stone — Bolton is established as Robb's bannerman, he's seen with Robb in several scenes, and in the meantime the audience gets to see much, much more of Charles Dance as Tywin Lannister.

My only nitpick is, where the hell is the Greatjon? My guess is it wasn't worth it for the actor or the show's budget to have him just hanging out in the background, but for the sake of consistency it would have been nice to see him this season among Robb's lords.

Finally, Ygritte. Wow. Rose Leslie is gorgeous and I'm happy to see a real redhead, not a brunette with a bad dye-job. She was fantastic in this episode and I hope we see a lot more of her.

[Planetary]

i think part of the the abduction by the warlocks is that their magic will age the dragons a bit, so they are more impressive for their needed roles in the slave cities.

I also though the tower we see at the end is the House of the Undying, or part of it. On TV, it's a lot easier to get that jarring spatial effect if a character walks into a narrow tower and suddenly the inside is a vast room too big for the exterior....rather than using a low building and putting lots of stairs in it.

[templar7]

Well, I was expecting more negative reactions, to be honest. Yes, I'm a bit of a book purist (book? what book lol), but I don't mind changes when they are smart and/or well-written. Most of those in this episode really, really weren't. For instance, I enjoyed Tywin and Arya's interactions in the 5th episode. I could list examples of other changes I thought made sense and/or that I enjoyed, but to save time, I'll just nerd-rage about how stupid this episode was overall. I want an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a goddamn fanfiction. *facepalm*

Yeah, but I always assumed he was just trampled to death or beaten up by a lynch mob. That whole zombie-like ripping scene was beyond cheesy and retarded. A human arm just doesn't get torn off like that, for crying out loud. When the mob started snarling like zombies, I snorted in derision and thought, "what's this, a Romero movie?". When the arm came off I just had to laugh. Idiotic.

Speaking of cheesy gore, while I enjoyed Sandor trouncing those would-be rapists (I mean it's hard to NOT enjoy the Hound kicking ass), the guts spilling out was just stupid. Gore like that belongs in a zombie flick, not Game of Thrones. It looked goofy and cartoonish.

Retarded indeed. I feel for that actress, there was no need to cut her. Especially considering there was a dead handmaiden in the series, and her name was Doreah. Instead they kill off the brown girl (in a completely retarded scene to boot) and keep Doreah alive because... because fuck you is why (?).

Yes, that's what we're claiming. Really. Oh wait, no, bugger off.

Agreed! Thank you. And THANK YOU for pointing out the sheer idiocy of the Jon/Ygritte scene. Oh my fucking god, that was retarded and pointless and nerd-rage inducing. You know, I get that the show needs to cut, to adapt, blah blah blah, budget, constraint, TV format, etc. But nothing, nothing whatsoever justified this change. It was not only longer than it needed to be, it made no sense. The only reason I can think of is to make Jon look like a complete fucktard. Ugh.

Another needless add-on: Osha sleeping with Theon. Just more gratuitous nudity again. It wasn't necessary to her plot to spirit the boys out of Winterfell, she could just have waited for Theon to be asleep normally and do all the rest. But, that way there would be no bewbies, derp.

And then there was Dany's dragons being stolen.... what. I mean, seriously, what. Why. Why. Why? Perfect example of change for the sake of change, and don't tell me it's "to give Dany something to do". Dany already had plenty of reasons to visit the House of the Undying, this was just supremely lazy writing to artificially add tension and a cliffhanger to the episode. And so badly done too. They come back to the mansion and all those Dothraki warriors are dead, and yet there isn't a single slain foe in sight. Derp. And where's Doreah? Oh, probably getting naked somewhere, duh.

Also, the whole "Dany needs something to do" notion needs to die. Dany has 5 chapters in ACoK, so what? We hardly see Jaime either. Or Barristan. We don't see Lysa at all til the end of ASoS. Theon is not at all in A Storm of Swords. They already gutted Bran's storyline, why would they need to add to Dany's? It will be inevitable that some actors/characters have fewer appearances or screen time for prolonged periods of time due to how the story is written. Or are you people gonna encourage them to invent arbitrary storylines for Theon in Season 3 when we all know that he does nothing except being tortured and broken by Ramsay?

And I dread to see what will happen with Robb. There was nothing wrong with him taking an arrow wound, getting feverish and being "nursed" to health by Jeyne. It made sense, and also, Catelyn wasn't around to remind him of his duty. They made that storyline just far less believable already.

I was really looking forward to the House of the Undying, because I figured it was their opportunity to show flashbacks and visions. But now I'm dreading the whole thing. I have no reason to trust in the writers and I am expecting the whole thing to suck. Hey, that way I won't be disappointed, and if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised...

IMO it was the weakest of the entire series so far. By far.

Err.... no. *facepalm* He was checking her out because she obviously looked familiar to him and he was probably wondering where he saw her before. Geez. The real problem with this scene, actually, is twofold: one, Littlefinger can apparently teleport. Seriously, he's everyfuckingwhere. He's obviously D&D's favourite character because his screen time is ludicrously high and he's inserted into a bunch of random scenes and places where he never appeared in the books, just because. Enough already. And second, while I enjoy Charles Dance and the Tywin/Arya interactions were entertaining, they were completely out of character. Tywin confiding in his cupbearer is just absurd. And while Arya screaming "now!" at Jaqen and Jaqen's raised eyebrows made for decent humour, the way Ser Amory died was just ridiculous and far-fetched. I wonder if there'll be any follow-up to that, I mean, an important bannerman of Tywin was murdered just like that, I hope there will be consequences at least... but now I'm no longer holding my breath for any weasel soup.

Agreed, with the last sentence at least. But I wish people wouldn't call it the "sack of Winterfell". It wasn't a sack. It was a capture. The sacking/burning comes later, at Ramsay's hand. Also, I thought Winterfell's capture and the riot were by far the least offensive parts of the episode.

Wow, what a great jab. You sure showed him. :rolleyes:

One question to all the comlainers who bitch about every evasion form the novels. why watch? Im relieved that I dont know whats going to happen next and most of the changes they have made still fit and keep it moving. In most cases I think they are imrovements. its an adaptation not a copy. I love the books too, dont get me wrong but the sooner I accepted this as a new telling I started liking it more and more. The best thing about the books is their unpredictability, and the show has it too.

[Snow's Spearwife]

Just watching this again and thought to myself - how could Dagmar end up being the Bastard?

What if Roose sent him to Pyke when Robb sent Theon back to Pyke? Mayhap Roose has been in Tywin's pocket this whole time and this was one of the "schemes" to help Robb fail since they can't defeat him in battle? Just a thought.....

[Lord Kyle]

I thought the episode was a masterpiece compared to some of the other episodes, but I am too much a purist to say that I loved it.

Enjoyed the Siege of Winterfell. Really enjoyed the Riot in King's Landing. Hated the Robb and Talisa scene. Was able to stomach the first scene with Tywin and Arya. HATED the scene with the two of them and Littlefinger. Was amused with Jaqen and Lorch. Indifferent to Jon and Qhorin. Liked John, Qhorin, and Ygritte until John decided to not let her go but not kill her. Qarth S-U-C-K-S. LOVED Roose, Robb and Catlyn simply for confirming Ramsay wasn't cut from the show.

Biggest disapointments:

-No Ramsay . . . yet.

-With Rodrik dead who's arm will Ramsay cut off?

-Disapointed with the way Lorch was put down, this guy pulled a crying child out from under her bed and stabbed her to death (along with other atrocities) and instead of being stripped naked and thrown into a pit to be killed by a bear he simply gets a poison dart to the neck.

I guess its because its ASoIaF, and extremely long, intricate, complicated and detailed story that I get so upset when changes are made to it in the adaptation. When a 334 page book is made into a 2 1/2 hour long movie with only some noticeable changes its not so bad. Yeah most of the time the book is probably better but you still get a really good movie out of it (Silence of the Lambs, The Road) but Game of Thrones leaves me with the same feeling that Jurassic Park and The Lovely Bones movies did when compared to the phenomal books that they're based on.

[The Knight of Flours]

I really think they will simplify the Reek/Ramsay storyline. Probably just have Bolton sneakily take Winterfell and then do nasty things to Theon and turn him into Reek (without there having been an original Reek or a Reek/Ramsay).

Edited May 8, 2012 by The Knight of Flours

[templar7]

the show makes it clear, just ten seconds earlier, that not even many highborn MEN ( and and high-ranking army commanders) know how to read well, how likely is that a peasant can, much less a girl child?

I did not like this episode at all, there were more plotholes than plot.

I did not like Ygritte´s "escape", so pontless and ridiculous, same as Dany´s speech to the spice king. She came across like she was about ready to be signed into a mental institution, so hysterical and over the top.

Sorry still dont buy it. Tywin is not a genius, he's just rich. He leaves a tral of oversights in his wake throughout the books. Well argued though. And I do agree with you on Dany's speech.

[Robin Of House Hill]

One issue I have is that the writers are using modern phrases too often. When someone says, "he disrespected me", or Tywin says, "give us the room", it jars me out of the story.

[SI Monster]

The theory was based on the fact that Dagmer comes up to Theon after the rest of the crew leaves him for the boat and only then introduces himself as first mate, then proceeds to manipulate Theon into completely changing his plans. If Theon calls him first mate when they get on the boat the rest of the crew has no reason to argue the point.

It's far fetched, but less crackpot than many theories. Far more likely Dagmer is just filling the role of Reek.

Another thing I've noticed is that Dagmer Cleffjaw doesn't have a 'Cleft jaw'. So him being a bastard in squid's clothing makes sense to me.

Anyone think they miscast the roles of Asha (Yara) and Ygritte?

[Rockroi]

Since Morrigan clearly has my back in this fight, I gotta return the favor to my hommie:

One question to all the comlainers (sic) who bitch about every evasion form the novels. why watch? Im relieved that I dont know whats going to happen next and most of the changes they have made still fit and keep it moving. In most cases I think they are imrovements (sic). its an adaptation not a copy. I love the books too, dont get me wrong but the sooner I accepted this as a new telling I started liking it more and more. The best thing about the books is their unpredictability, and the show has it too.

1. We do not "bitch" about every deviation from the books. I personally loved the scenes that add depth and substance to the characters- most notably in season 1 the scene between Robert and Cersei; I loved the circumvention of the Reeds (not as critical as people think) and I have stated (really until I am blue in the face) just how amazing the Tywin-Arya scenes are. I am amazed at how incredible Maergery has become. even the additions with LF are fine by me. Anything that adds to the universe I enjoy. Also, some changing of the original was done to conserve time- the conflation of the shadow baby/Stannis Shadow;

But it comes with a price: a season of ten hours- no more. For everything that is added, something must be taken away. And I insist that the people who make those choices... chose wisely. And do not mistake me- the vast majority of changes have been for the positive. But that does not excuse the few that have been cringe-worthy (most notably the life-less parlay between Stannis and Renly).

2.I watch because its a great show about a great series I enjoy a great deal. I honestly thought my 6K posts on this message board would have tipped you off to that.

3. When I watch the show, I enjoy it as a "Alternate Universe" of Westeroes/ Game of Thrones. And as an alternate, some changes must be made. Most changes do fit the overall mold of the show. Most changes to not dramatically alter the landscape of the overall story. But you must concede that some changes can still be bad changes, . If a change is poorly done; or is misguided; or slows down the pace of the story; or makes me question what the show is doing, etc, I have every right to criticize. Take the Jon Snow scene where he spares Ygritte then chases her because he ... is going to free her later?... maybe... but may want to bring her back to Halfhand... but Halfhand said he wanted her dead... ANYWAY... if that scene happened in the books, I would have thought it bizarre and poorly done (but because Martin is a proven writer with a dramatic track record, that rarely happens). In other words, the fact that its a change is NOT reason enough to dislike something. However, if its a bad change then pipping that changes can be good cannot justify it, either. A good change would be a good; a bad one bad. And if I take each change and judge each one on its merits (which I believe I do), then I cannot be (fairly) accused of being a "purist" or a "nitpicker." If a scene is a bad scene it matters NOT AT ALL if its straight from the books or if its newly imagined. Its still bad.

That's why I criticized the Jon/Ygritte retelling (and because its a waste of limited time); its why I love other scenes. Not every complaint about a change is nitpicking; not every defense of a change is somehow open-mindedness. Each one must be evaluated on its own merits. And nobody should b complaining about that.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Besides all the other obvious reasons, the actor is just too old to be Roose's son.

[Still_Servant]

I refuse to let my passion for the books ruin my love for the show.

I’m not totally cool with everything that is happening on the show, but I wasn’t totally cool with all the choices Martin made in the books.

I know some people are just hard to please and they have a hard time accepting radical changes to something they love, but I urge everybody just to enjoy Game of Thrones for what it is - good television.

As viewers, we are lucky to see something that we love be adapted for television. It’s a privilege to sit down every Sunday and watch this show.

I have a question for those who love to whine about the show. Would you rather have a world with no Game of Thrones or a world with Game of Thrones that isn’t as good as the books they are based on?

I for one choose the former. It’s better than anything else that’s on TV at that time. Take it from me, I’m typing this while “watching” The Killing. There are far worse shows out there.

If you can’t separate the two then I’m not really sure why you are watching the show. Go watch The Killing or find something more entertaining/important to do with your time. Good luck with that by the way.

Also, I’m shocked at how many people disliked Ygritte in the books. I always thought that she was great. And for the one guy that didn’t like Jon Snow in the books, that borderlines on blasphemy.

In the end, the show is a great way to satisfy our appetite until the next book comes out. We are all going to miss this show when it’s gone (which is hopefully years from now.) Enjoy it while you still can.

[Planetary]

I refuse to let my passion for the books ruin my love for the show.

I’m not totally cool with everything that is happening on the show, but I wasn’t totally cool with all the choices Martin made in the books.

I know some people are just hard to please and they have a hard time accepting radical changes to something they love, but I urge everybody just to enjoy Game of Thrones for what it is - good television.

As viewers, we are lucky to see something that we love be adapted for television. It’s a privilege to sit down every Sunday and watch this show.

I have a question for those who love to whine about the show. Would you rather have a world with no Game of Thrones or a world with Game of Thrones that isn’t as good as the books they are based on?

I for one choose the former. It’s better than anything else that’s on TV at that time. Take it from me, I’m typing this while “watching” The Killing. There are far worse shows out there.

If you can’t separate the two then I’m not really sure why you are watching the show. Go watch The Killing or find something more entertaining/important to do with your time. Good luck with that by the way.

Also, I’m shocked at how many people disliked Ygritte in the books. I always thought that she was great. And for the one guy that didn’t like Jon Snow in the books, that borderlines on blasphemy.

In the end, the show is a great way to satisfy our appetite until the next book comes out. We are all going to miss this show when it’s gone (which is hopefully years from now.) Enjoy it while you still can.

Well said.

You bring up an important point, which is that while the TV series is flawed, so are the books. On a forum like this, people are going to be reverential, but the books have some huge missteps and Martin ain't exactly Chekhov.

Didn't Martin himself say in retrospect he would've done some of the things the TV show did? I remember something along the lines of him saying if he could go back and do it all over again, he'd make the Stark kids older, as they are in the show. There were other tweaks he admitted to as well.

But as you noted, we should be grateful the show is on TV, that it's being done by HBO and not by one of the many awful cable networks, that we get an hour each episode without commercials, that the show was renewed because it's been successful, and that if all goes well, we'll be watching the show for years to come.

In other words, be grateful Game of Thrones isn't Rome. And be grateful it's not on AMC, which would squeeze 25 commercials into every hour while skimping on the production budget. We have it pretty good right now.