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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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i can't believe i'm going to say this but ... Theon is my favorite character by far this season. He has done a superb job and may even win an award as a supporting actor with Tyrion probably winning best actor.

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I'll go along with the dragon theft if it was the warlocks that did it and we still get to see Dany's acid trip. That's the main thing I'm still looking forward to besides Blackwater. We already lost Bran's falling dream from book 1, taking away Dany's crazy vision too would just be wrong.

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I agree and don't think Dagmar is Ramsay. Dagmar looks almost as old as Roose Bolton himself. Could they perhaps be using Dagmar to fill the old "Reek" role, actually killing the miller's sons and giving Theon the idea to use them as "fake" Bran and Rickon? That would, of course, be before Ramsay shows up. I may be wrong about timing here...but I suppose it could happen.

how would Ramsay get to the iron islands and pose as an ironman?

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Well, I was expecting more negative reactions, to be honest. Yes, I'm a bit of a book purist (book? what book lol), but I don't mind changes when they are smart and/or well-written. Most of those in this episode really, really weren't. For instance, I enjoyed Tywin and Arya's interactions in the 5th episode. I could list examples of other changes I thought made sense and/or that I enjoyed, but to save time, I'll just nerd-rage about how stupid this episode was overall. I want an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a goddamn fanfiction. *facepalm*

That was how he died in the book as well; ripped apart by the mob.

Yeah, but I always assumed he was just trampled to death or beaten up by a lynch mob. That whole zombie-like ripping scene was beyond cheesy and retarded. A human arm just doesn't get torn off like that, for crying out loud. When the mob started snarling like zombies, I snorted in derision and thought, "what's this, a Romero movie?". When the arm came off I just had to laugh. Idiotic.

Speaking of cheesy gore, while I enjoyed Sandor trouncing those would-be rapists (I mean it's hard to NOT enjoy the Hound kicking ass), the guts spilling out was just stupid. Gore like that belongs in a zombie flick, not Game of Thrones. It looked goofy and cartoonish.

Haha are u serious? So just because she's hotter? Oh my god thats fucking retarted. and no, the actress who played Irri was a good actress. And she said in an interview that Irri's death came as a shock and she was free to do Game of Thrones.

Retarded indeed. I feel for that actress, there was no need to cut her. Especially considering there was a dead handmaiden in the series, and her name was Doreah. Instead they kill off the brown girl (in a completely retarded scene to boot) and keep Doreah alive because... because fuck you is why (?).

Best episode yet. I honestly do not understand how someone can say these changes were negative; by doing so you're basically just claiming that GRRM's story is completely perfect and cannot be altered whatsoever in any way.

Yes, that's what we're claiming. Really. Oh wait, no, bugger off.

I just get the feeling that the show does not know why we all liked the books so much. I mean it’s not “you-can’t-improve-on-perfection” or anything like that; more like that scene in Annie Hall- I just want to be standing in line and pull out George RR Martin and have him say “You know nothing about my work.”

Agreed! Thank you. And THANK YOU for pointing out the sheer idiocy of the Jon/Ygritte scene. Oh my fucking god, that was retarded and pointless and nerd-rage inducing. You know, I get that the show needs to cut, to adapt, blah blah blah, budget, constraint, TV format, etc. But nothing, nothing whatsoever justified this change. It was not only longer than it needed to be, it made no sense. The only reason I can think of is to make Jon look like a complete fucktard. Ugh.

Another needless add-on: Osha sleeping with Theon. Just more gratuitous nudity again. It wasn't necessary to her plot to spirit the boys out of Winterfell, she could just have waited for Theon to be asleep normally and do all the rest. But, that way there would be no bewbies, derp.

And then there was Dany's dragons being stolen.... what. I mean, seriously, what. Why. Why. Why? Perfect example of change for the sake of change, and don't tell me it's "to give Dany something to do". Dany already had plenty of reasons to visit the House of the Undying, this was just supremely lazy writing to artificially add tension and a cliffhanger to the episode. And so badly done too. They come back to the mansion and all those Dothraki warriors are dead, and yet there isn't a single slain foe in sight. Derp. And where's Doreah? Oh, probably getting naked somewhere, duh.

Also, the whole "Dany needs something to do" notion needs to die. Dany has 5 chapters in ACoK, so what? We hardly see Jaime either. Or Barristan. We don't see Lysa at all til the end of ASoS. Theon is not at all in A Storm of Swords. They already gutted Bran's storyline, why would they need to add to Dany's? It will be inevitable that some actors/characters have fewer appearances or screen time for prolonged periods of time due to how the story is written. Or are you people gonna encourage them to invent arbitrary storylines for Theon in Season 3 when we all know that he does nothing except being tortured and broken by Ramsay?

And I dread to see what will happen with Robb. There was nothing wrong with him taking an arrow wound, getting feverish and being "nursed" to health by Jeyne. It made sense, and also, Catelyn wasn't around to remind him of his duty. They made that storyline just far less believable already.

I was really looking forward to the House of the Undying, because I figured it was their opportunity to show flashbacks and visions. But now I'm dreading the whole thing. I have no reason to trust in the writers and I am expecting the whole thing to suck. Hey, that way I won't be disappointed, and if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised...

This was, by far, the weakest episode of the season.

IMO it was the weakest of the entire series so far. By far.

Did you notice how Littlefinger kept staring at Arya. I don't remember him being into little girls in the books but suddenly that's his thing in the show? It's really unlike him, IMO, but there you go.

Err.... no. *facepalm* He was checking her out because she obviously looked familiar to him and he was probably wondering where he saw her before. Geez. The real problem with this scene, actually, is twofold: one, Littlefinger can apparently teleport. Seriously, he's everyfuckingwhere. He's obviously D&D's favourite character because his screen time is ludicrously high and he's inserted into a bunch of random scenes and places where he never appeared in the books, just because. Enough already. And second, while I enjoy Charles Dance and the Tywin/Arya interactions were entertaining, they were completely out of character. Tywin confiding in his cupbearer is just absurd. And while Arya screaming "now!" at Jaqen and Jaqen's raised eyebrows made for decent humour, the way Ser Amory died was just ridiculous and far-fetched. I wonder if there'll be any follow-up to that, I mean, an important bannerman of Tywin was murdered just like that, I hope there will be consequences at least... but now I'm no longer holding my breath for any weasel soup.

Hound redemption... the only thing that saved this episode--well that and the mention of "the bastard of the Dreadfort". I just really thought the sack of Winterfell (along w/ Ser Rodrick's beheading) and the Kings Landing riots were cheesy as hell. This was my least favorite, boarding on worst episode ever...and I'm usually not that much of a complainer, I usually defend the "visual representation" of the novels. But this one was just plain bad. Disappointed.

Agreed, with the last sentence at least. But I wish people wouldn't call it the "sack of Winterfell". It wasn't a sack. It was a capture. The sacking/burning comes later, at Ramsay's hand. Also, I thought Winterfell's capture and the riot were by far the least offensive parts of the episode.

You should stop watching the show. Also, you clearly need to get laid.

Wow, what a great jab. You sure showed him. :rolleyes:

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I don't mind the change to Dany's storyline, they have to give her a little extra something to do. I'm fine with that, I'm sure she'll still end up at the same place as the books. Her storyline in ACOK was kinda boring, so they wanted to add some excitement, I'm fine with that. Plus it never made sense that no one ever tried to steal her dragons. So having at least one attempt will get that out of the way, and we won't have to hear "how come nobody ever tried to steal her dragons when they were little?"

My complaint about this episode is that the dialogue was a bit off, especially the Robb/Jeyne conversation, it just didn't work for me. I also felt that the whole killing of Lorch scene was silly. Surely Tywin would be tearing the entire castle apart looking for a killer in their midst. Instead he acts as if nothing happened?

Edited by The Scabbard Of the Morning

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"It's alright King Jack Gleeson! We will save you from the haters!" :P

Really enjoyed this episode.

But wtf were they doing to the High Septon?! Looks like the walking dead moved into King's Landing! :o

Edited by Sharpes

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Is it just me or are they trying to make you feel sorry for Theon on the show? In the books he came off as a prick but in the show it is like he is the victim. Maybe it is just me. Any thoughts?

i agree as well, but i think they are doing this (and have been for quite some time) with a lot of characters. and i'm not certain whether that is due to the writers personal interpretation of the books or that D&D thought that they needed to amp up the sympathy for certain characters. i'm probably alone in this thought but i think that alot of the changes are made to the benefit of certain characters image in reference to the possible fans of the show.

ie:

CAT- they have changed alot of Catelyn's decisions and actions to make the viewer more sympathetic to her- Ned leaving for KL went from her urging it to her seeming (rightfully so)worried and sad about it. Her not saying to Jon "it should have been you". Going to see Renly stops being her idea and becomes Robb's to make her appear to of being pushed away by her children. (also prevents her from going home like she wanted to, instead of it not occurring to her to go home and take care of her sons)

Sansa- Sansa is a little girl who tends to take a lot of flack from fans of the book series so i wasn't too surprised when they started to combine her story with Lollys. I always found that when reading the books it was harder for me to feel sorry for Sansa whilst she shared a castle with Lollys who was a little girl as well, but life(and this story) had been much more cruel to her. I mean you feel bad when joff gets ser meryn to strip san at court, and again when she gets attacked at the riot, but you stop feeling so bad when you remember that poor dim Lollys was left to be raped and almost murdered. so by removing Lollys completely and having sansa almost get raped you earn her some extra sympathy while saving costs on casting.

Theon- plain and simple in the books it is almost impossible to feel sorry for Theon the turncloak, but in the series you genuinely feel sorry for him at times. especially when ser rodrik says to him "may the god's bless you soul boy, for now you are truly lost" the look on theon's face is saddening as you can see all happiness drain out of him. though they have stayed mostly true to the story with theon

Jamie- There have been a few extra scenes either with or talking about jamie lannister and most of them tend to provide a better window into who jamie lannister really is. his scene with robb in the first episode i found really great. and finding out from Tywin that jamie had dyslexia was a big shock for me(incidentally it also showed that tywin wasn't the absentee father we all thought, strict and stubborn yes, but you can't take away the credit of a great lord who spends four hours a day trying to help his son rid himself of his learning deficiency.

Cersei- oh dear god, they are really trying to calm down the crazy bitch that the books depicted her to be. though maybe they are just building up to it. but so they been keen on turning joff into a young charles manson in order to make her not look as sadistic by reflection. and changing who ordered the killing of Robert's bastards was a huge change in my opinion because that was when I as a reader really began to understand just how (ambitious?) sick Cersei could be.

but hey, i'm probably what is referred to as a book purest. even though i deny it. i just truly enjoyed the books and thought it would be nice if i could watch a series based on them. but as a friend of mine (who has never read the books because he doesn't want to ruin the show for himself) said to me. "dude, you're a fan of the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. that's cool, but remember you're not watching a song of ice and fire, you're watching a game of thrones so while they may be similar they are not the same thing. so accept that they are different entities and start seeing them as such and your expectations of the show can go back to just being that you want it to be entertaining." which in my opinion is great advice, i only found the book series because he told me about the show, so after watching the first season(and fucking loving it) i burned through 5 books. and then decided that i now hate my new favourite show because they keep changing things.

and that is my late night rant.

oh and jaqen's face when arya is freaking out saying that it has to be done now is hilarious. you can just see him in his head going, "ugh, little girls are so tiresome"

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Not my favorite episode. Definitley had some good moments, mostly the first scene of Theon taking Winterfell, but I really feel like this whole season has been rushed. Characters are zooming throughout Westeros, and a lot of the scenes from the book seem to just happen on screen with very little setup.

Things I enjoyed:

--Theon taking Winterfell. This seemed pretty close to the book, adn while Theon doesnt kill Rodrik, that change made sense, even if it is a bit odd that he's the only one they captured from Torrhen's square.

--Ygritte. Looks and plays teh part well I thought.

--More Hound. Finally he has some decent screentime, though they overdid the gore a bit on his killing of the rioters.

Changes I'm not a fan of:

--Too much Littlefinger. God, he's in every episode from some reason. And where the fuck is Varys? He hasn't been on the show since episode 3 I think; instead they're using all their time on Littlefinger. Didn't care for the suspense in the "will he recognize Arya" scene, adn the stuff he converses with Tywin about was pretty redundant.

--Qhorin. Actor is fine, but I'm not really liking the lines they're giving him. In the book it become clear he left Jon alone with Ygritte to see what he would do and know him better from his choice of action. Here, I'm not really sure why they left Jon alone, or why such a great tracker as Qhorion coudln't find Jon after his chase. Which brings me to

--Jon sparing Ygritte. This didn't make a whole lot of sense. I didn't think he missed his swing, but then if not, why did he start chasing her? Wasn't that swing on teh rock a signal he was letting her go? Plus, the time used on the chase is kinda wasted, and as I mentioned above, it doesn't make sense that Qhorin and the rest haven't found Jon. He didn't go that far.

--Death of Amory Lorch. I don't really care that they killed him off early, but I wasn't a fan of how he went. Too comical, and the whole thing with Arya stealing hte letter just feels like manufactured tension. Much prefer the assassinations that look like accidents from the book, not Lorch just falling over dead with a dart in his neck after knocking on Tywin's door.

--Dany's dragons being stolen. Another manufactured cliffhanger ending. Getting a little sick of these, and I kind of feel like this show is turning too much into True Blood, with cliffhangers at every ending and just big events happening with little character development. This is partly because they don't have time with only ten episodes, but they still could have spent hte time better. Too much time with Dany in Qarth, adn I was rolling my eyes at her long, rambling speech to the Spice guy.

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Glad to hear Ramsay will be in it. But as a purist, this season has been painful. The show only uses the books as a guideline now. Don't say it's because of "budget." Last season stayed very close to the books, and a lot of plots/scenes have been added. Most of the dialogue in the show now never happened in the books.

If you are a true purist then why watch? Im relieved that I dont know whats going to happen next and most of the changes they have made still fit and keep it moving. In most cases I think they are imrovements. its an adaptation not a copy. I love the books too, dont get me wrong but the sooner I accepted this as a new telling I started liking it more and more. The best thing about the books is their unpredictability, and the show has it too.

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What the hell HBO? :shocked: Where is my ASOIAF???

When I saw that Tywin knew that Arya could read I couldn´t wait to come here to nitpick because the real Tywin would nevr have been so stupid not to realize that Arya had to be highborn, and because of the Jon and Ygritte scenes, but the last scene made all these gripes fade to oblivion :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: stolen dragons?

WTF, seriously WTF???

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Okay, so in relatively chronological order (as far as I can remember)...

The attack on Winterfell was great. I never really liked Bran, and always felt he was boring in the books, but I wanted to stand up and applaud him for his totally contemptuous treatment of Theon. His reactions to Ser Rodrik's death were also great. Hempstead-Wright is amping up his game, and I really hope he can stay on with the show even as he gets older. . . he's doing a fantastic job. As much as I loathe everything about Theon, Allen really played him quite well, especially the way his mouth quivered after Bran asked him if he had hated them the whole time.

Leslie's doing great as Ygritte, but the whole chase thing was a pointless waste of time. Like somebody else mentioned, I also for a second thought we'd get "you know nothing" when she said "you're stupid." Alas! Soon, I hope.

The riot... gods. I was honestly terrified. At first I was like, oh, this'll be some good fun and humiliation for Joffrey--but then Sansa's scene got a lot more intense, and I was getting worried by the chase. And then she was cornered in a room with nowhere to go! I honestly thought they were actually going to have her raped, I really did. Turner just sold it. Heart pounding, full of nervous fear for my favorite character--great acting, great camera work, and a near heart attack from me. I am floored at how graphic/close to an actual rape that they got. Tensest moment on a TV show for me. I've never been the Hound's biggest fan... but he literally arrived at the last second to save the day. Somebody give him a ****ing medal.

And another Joffrey slap! Yes.

Still concerned about "Talisa." I don't honestly think she's really Volantene, but the fact that both Catelyn and Robb could buy it is troubling, but not totally problematic. Just as every Targaryen didn't have the Valyrian look, nor should every single member of the Volantene aristocracy. You'd think somebody would at least ask, though.

I'm disturbed by Tywin being so forthcoming to his cupbearer. I don't mind them developing him, but the man was the biggest snob in the Seven Kingdoms. Remember what he did to poor Tysha? Come on. He wouldn't be so chatty with someone he thought a commoner. I'm fine with him finding her amusing, but not telling her family stories. Maisie Williams did a fantastic job with the Littlefinger scene though--these child actors are phenominal.

The Daenerys scenes... I'll wait and see what happens with the dragon-napping before commenting. I don't mind her being more assertive about her throne and her rights. Some people might see it as crazy (and it is, a little, perhaps) but I like it. I also liked the Spice King contrasting his way of life with hers. Different worlds. Most people would probably say he knocked her down a peg, but I'd say he just proved himself to be a small-minded fool.

Shae's scene with Sansa was great. Development for both characters done in an artful way.

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The show writers will never combine Dagmar with Ramsay. They are two notable characters in the book that oppose one another, not two notable characters who fill companion roles. Even though I really liked the Reeds, they can be brought in at later seasons to avoid things from getting way too crowded.

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Good ep fer the most part.

The high septon zombie thing would've made sense if they just had rocks and whatnot in their hands.

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What the hell HBO? :shocked: Where is my ASOIAF???

When I saw that Tywin knew that Arya could read I couldn´t wait to come here to nitpick because the real Tywin would nevr have been so stupid not to realize that Arya had to be highborn, and because of the Jon and Ygritte scenes, but the last scene made all these gripes fade to oblivion :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: stolen dragons?

WTF, seriously WTF???

why should he know she is highborn? All he knows is that she knows how to read. Also, in the books Arya is as sharp as a whip and I must say that Tywin makes several stupid moves. Like thinking Rob would actually send acurate word of his advance. Or not recognizing Tyrions genius years before and utilizing him effectivly. He's not a genius of a man, just a rich one.

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I can't believe they killed Amory Lorch! That is just more bullshit!

Now not only has Arya's scene with The Tickler in Season 3 been lost, now we'll never get to see Lorch being thrown in the bear pit! Ugh god, they have really messed Arya's story. The whole Tywin's cupbearer keeps her out of the dirt and takes away an important part of her story, that she is alone in the commoners world. What's next?! Cutting the Weasel Soup?.... oh dear hell. If they cut the Weasel Soup I will be convinced that Arya's story has been ruined this season.

Do not care for the Dragons being stolen. Would it have been so difficult to just have her decide to visit the Warlocks after her meetings ended in failure, EXACTLY AS SHE DID IN THE BOOK.

The whole Talisa issue is just off. How hard is it to introduce Jeyne Westerling as the noble who comforts Robb after Bran and Rickon's "deaths" and then after the Red Wedding have Tywin reveal that he and Jeyne's mother plotted the entire thing to make Robb lose the Freys.

Littlefinger is at Harrenhal now? But he was just at the Tyrell camp which should take at least a few days of travel between the two. The man is everywhere, but I think the story can hold on without Littlefinger entering and making some smart-ass quips.

Very bad episode imo. Too many changes for pointless reasons. I can understand changes that help the books fit into a screen adaption but not meaningless changes like the ones above.

LotN

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Not my favorite episode. Definitley had some good moments, mostly the first scene of Theon taking Winterfell, but I really feel like this whole season has been rushed. Characters are zooming throughout Westeros, and a lot of the scenes from the book seem to just happen on screen with very little setup.

Things I enjoyed:

--Theon taking Winterfell. This seemed pretty close to the book, adn while Theon doesnt kill Rodrik, that change made sense, even if it is a bit odd that he's the only one they captured from Torrhen's square.

--Ygritte. Looks and plays teh part well I thought.

--More Hound. Finally he has some decent screentime, though they overdid the gore a bit on his killing of the rioters.

Changes I'm not a fan of:

--Too much Littlefinger. God, he's in every episode from some reason. And where the fuck is Varys? He hasn't been on the show since episode 3 I think; instead they're using all their time on Littlefinger. Didn't care for the suspense in the "will he recognize Arya" scene, adn the stuff he converses with Tywin about was pretty redundant.

--Qhorin. Actor is fine, but I'm not really liking the lines they're giving him. In the book it become clear he left Jon alone with Ygritte to see what he would do and know him better from his choice of action. Here, I'm not really sure why they left Jon alone, or why such a great tracker as Qhorion coudln't find Jon after his chase. Which brings me to

--Jon sparing Ygritte. This didn't make a whole lot of sense. I didn't think he missed his swing, but then if not, why did he start chasing her? Wasn't that swing on teh rock a signal he was letting her go? Plus, the time used on the chase is kinda wasted, and as I mentioned above, it doesn't make sense that Qhorin and the rest haven't found Jon. He didn't go that far.

--Death of Amory Lorch. I don't really care that they killed him off early, but I wasn't a fan of how he went. Too comical, and the whole thing with Arya stealing hte letter just feels like manufactured tension. Much prefer the assassinations that look like accidents from the book, not Lorch just falling over dead with a dart in his neck after knocking on Tywin's door.

--Dany's dragons being stolen. Another manufactured cliffhanger ending. Getting a little sick of these, and I kind of feel like this show is turning too much into True Blood, with cliffhangers at every ending and just big events happening with little character development. This is partly because they don't have time with only ten episodes, but they still could have spent hte time better. Too much time with Dany in Qarth, adn I was rolling my eyes at her long, rambling speech to the Spice guy.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. "Manufactured tension" is the theme of this season, it seems. The Craster cliffhanger, Arya stealing the letter, and now the dragons being stolen... stupid and unnecessary.

Oh, did anyone else find that Sansa was out of character with Shae? The last time they spoke she completely distrusted her (and with good reason). Sansa didn't trust anyone in King's Landing. And now she starts trusting Shae and needs to be reminded, by Shae herself, to not trust anyone? Meh.

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I loved this episode. The storylines were juggled nicely and the episode just flew by. The changes worked for me. The taking of Winterfell really surprised me as a starter, but it was a really intense chapter, especially for Theon. The only thing that felt a bit rushed there was that they put the (apparent) escape from Winterfell in the same episode.

At Harrenhal the Tywin/Arya interactions might be out of character for Tywin, but they help explain why Arya doesn't choose Tywin for her next victim. For the show it made sense to have Littlefinger negotiate the Lannister/Tyrell alliance on both ends, but since we have no real measure of time passing on the show it really feels as if he's everywhere.

Great introduction of Ygritte, although they expanded it quite a bit and deviated from the book. But in my opinion the great Icelandic vistas made it all worthwhile.

The riot scene and the aftermath were great, especially Tyrion still in shock and in dwarf-rage at the same time, and of course the Hound. My only gripe with this is that apparently all horses in King's Landing have already been eaten. Why would the king's procession be on foot? Okay, budget, animals on set, all difficult to handle, but no horses at all?

Finally, Dany's storyline got a twist which I really liked. Stealing the dragons is a major deviation from the books, but seeing as everyone wants her dragons, it still seems plausible. Saving her children from the warlocks adds to the urgency for the mother of dragons to go there. Also, I was under the impression that they pitched the dragons' screams to sound a bit like crying babies. Or am I imagining things?

In my opinion strongest episode so far.

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I don't know why people are picking on Littlefinger ending up at Harrenhal. He left the Tyrell camp within a day of Catelyn, and Catelyn reaches Robb in the westerlands this episode, an even further distance. The show has decided to not bother at all with trying to make sense of travel or suggest the passage of time.

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I don't know why people are picking on Littlefinger ending up at Harrenhal. He left the Tyrell camp within a day of Catelyn, and Catelyn reaches Robb in the westerlands this episode, an even further distance. The show has decided to not bother at all with trying to make sense of travel or suggest the passage of time.

I suppose you have a point but to be honest I didn't like Catelyn reaching Robb's camp so soon either. In fact I didn't like Catelyn reaching Robb's camp, period....

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