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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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Loved this episode. My only issues with it are:

- Robb & Talysa scene: Idiotic writing, straight out of a hackneyed hollywood romance. They need to fix their interactions and make them more credible or they will really affect the toe of the show.

- Amory Lorche's death. A farcical moment that felt so out of tune with the episode. I'm sure they meant for it to come off as shocking, they faild. It was laughable, and somehow made the supposedly very real peril Arry is under less credible.

That's it, really. I like with changes to Dany's arc. I hated her arc in the books, and found the fact that no one at any moment ever attempted to steal her tiny baby dragons VERY hard to believe.

Edited by Sun

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In the books they 'leave', backtrack to confuse the trail, hide, Theon 'murders' them, then after Winterfell falls they actually leave. As this is their first 'leaving' they can still be 'murdered' and be presumed dead for a time.

oh yeah, sorry my mistake. It's been a while since I've read Clash of Kings, still shaky remembering it.

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I didn't think this episode was up to par. The Winterfell and KL scenes were quite well done (although I'm not sure what's supposed to have happened to Ser Rodrik's army - were they all crushed at Torrhen's Square?), but some of the changes are completely pointless.

- Myrcella crying when the book specifically made a point of her not crying? This feels like the writer is trying to stick it to GRRM or something, for no reason at all.

- I have no idea where they're going with the Ygritte thing. I hope it doesn't end up being something stupid - like Jon actually deserting or ending up with Mance because of her. These bits are important for his character and they can't afford to mess it up.

- Harrenhal...some nicely acted scenes, sure, but the Amory Lorch stuff just seems to be there for a cheap thrill. And Tywin is being randomly warm and open to his suspicious cupbearer.

- Littlefinger, Littlefinger everywhere. He is really getting on my nerves.

Edited by rmanoj

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Seeing Theon taking Winterfell and beheading Rodrik was great and depressing. It was like reading one of those ASOIAF books :-). Still, it was a little strange that Rodrik was totally alone as it seemed.

Can somebody tell me why this episode was titled as it was? I can´t remember hering the phrase or even seeing the theme.

Anyway, while it wasn´t the worst thing ever on TV, I think I simply dislike style of Vanessa Taylor. She seems to be enjoying writing what she sees as witty dialogue of such characters as Tywin/Arya, Talisa/Robb or Dany/Spice king, but sometimes it looks like sort of parody which quite undermines seriousness of established characters. She is really kinda trying to put some new humor here and there and it rarely works to be honest. About the story itself, only Theon part and kidnapping of dragons seemed to me somehow consequential. I liked KL riot but I would prefer character stuff as Sansa/Dontos and such.

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I think Aiden Gillen must have the best agent on the show! How on earth does he get to appear in every episode when more central characters miss episodes?

I bet he appears in Highgarden next week! Too much Littlefinger!

Other than that, this was a fantastic episode!

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What did the letter say that Arya took? Also, unless Jaqen took it back, wouldn't Tywin know that Arya took it?

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I really don't have much issue with many of the changes. I like the idea of the dragons being used to lure Danny into the House of the Undying. I thought the stuff Arya faced was a great way to force out her second kill. I also think Tywin knows who she is and is amused by her lies. Of course, if so, he's a much kindlier jailer than his crazy family in Kings Landing.

The Robb romance stuff is straight out of bad 2 star romance movie. I'll agree with that.

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Now I'm a bit more coherent, I'll give more of my thoughts:

- Like I said, very happy that Ramsay was mentioned. He's an evil bastard but necessary to the story, IMHO.

- I loved how Bran looked at Theon when he first said he'd taken Winterfell. Kinda like 'bitch, please' :lol: All the scenes there were amazing, despite some tiny changes. Osha was brilliant, and when they sneaked out at the end I was like 'don't forget the wolves!'. Thankfully they were behind them.

- Theon killing Ser Rodrik was awful, but such a good scene. Very powerful.

- Dany's storyline has changed quite a lot, but someone stealing her dragons (and, IMO, taking them to the HotU) isn't a change I have much of a problem with. I like how everything that happens to her is undermining her, making her prove herself - the spice lord was so condescending towards her, I think it shows that yeah, she might have dragons, but she's still a young girl, and she has to earn what she wants. Much more believable, I like it. Not sure why Irri was killed though - her khalasar is shrinking to nothing. I wonder if Doreah as in on the theft of the dragons.. interesting.

- Talisa is one change I don't like. If they end up making her a Lannister spy and it comes out that she's Jeyne Westerling, well, I don't know how that would work. Robb would never marry her after that, so maybe they do the deed, get married, and then it comes out, but she's fallen in love with him during that time? I'm waiting to see on that one, but so far, I'm unimpressed. The best thing about that scene was the looks Catelyn was giving her.

- Arya and Tywin were great, despite the deviation from the books. Charles Dance just nails it, so I can't complain too much. I liked the Amory Lorch scene, it showed the same kind of mindset that Arya had in the book - kill those who are immediately threatening her.

All in all, best episode so far. As an adaptation, it's getting worse, but I'm trying to save myself some disappointment by just watching the show as it's own thing, like I did with Dexter. I hope they don't deviate as far as Dexter did, but most of what they're doing differently works.

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1. It is obvious that Doreah betrayed Dany. She was tired of being a harlot/slave and wanted money and freedom. That was an inside job as her body wasn't amongst the slain.

2. I hated they have killed off Dany's Khalaasar (sp?) it was an important part of the decisions she made, good ones and bad ones in the books and now they are almost all gone except for a handful. Also, seems like Dany won't be having "serviced" scenes that are in Storm and Dragons. I thought those were unnecessary in the books.

3. So it seems like they are really for budget and time dumping a lot of stuff. Also, to keep the TV audience from being more confused than I am sure they are.

4. Stealing the Dragons is LAME! Seeing dead Unsullied and dead Dothraki was a shock. It seems that GRRM wants to shock and awe book readers again by allowing D and D to achieve more fan fiction.

5. They have greatly departed from the books. Ser Rodrik was killed by Lord Ramsay Snow. But to show Theon's arc they showed Theon killing someone who trained him at arms. Sort of like Anakin Skywalker killing the Young Padawans in "Revenge of the Sith."

6. I liked the Osha scene but it was predictable, again sex scenes aren't my thing that is why I have a remote.

7. The Littlefinger Arya scene was forced. I enjoyed the banter between Lord Tywin and Arya, it seems to me that Lord Tywin knows who Arya is but is playing with her until his suspicions are confirmed.

Bad departure in some ways, good in others. I've never seen a "Harry Potter" movie so all the HP folks are freaking out after seeing her neekid. Calm down folks it wasn't porn. Yessh . .

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The creepiest thing was the voice of the Actress playing Ygritte (who is too clean and too pretty to be the book Ygritte) her voice sounds the same as I imagined Ygritte's in my head!!!

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I'm liking the inclusion of Roose but where the hell has the Greatjon gone?

The Greatjon Umber has gone to help Dany find her Dragons that Pyat Pree stole and took to the House of the Undying which strangely looks like the Tower of Babel . . it is known . .

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why should he know she is highborn? All he knows is that she knows how to read. Also, in the books Arya is as sharp as a whip and I must say that Tywin makes several stupid moves. Like thinking Rob would actually send acurate word of his advance. Or not recognizing Tyrions genius years before and utilizing him effectivly. He's not a genius of a man, just a rich one.

The problem I have with neither Tywin nor LF spotting Arya either as who she is (LF) or at least as a highborn (Tywin) is that we get Robb the 1st spotting Talissa as a highborn lady with far fewer interactions. LF is supposed to be a people reader and Twin is master of details, how can they not spot this when Robb does?

I liked the episode - how Winterfell was taken, Theon needing three swings to get Cassells head off, I would have liked the riot to be bigger but they did it well. The interaction between Tywin & Baelish was fine, Arya showed some of the "mouse" that she felt in Harrenhall - just the gap that neither of them could spot her seems really awkward with Robb being able to do that same thing. The spicer was great, I love that while people are amazed at her dragons, not everyone is just falling over themselves to befriend her.

Jon/Ygritte - meh, another scene that makes Jon look like a moron; if he wasn't going to kill her, why chase her?

Osha turning to Theon - screen time is at at a premium, have her say she's a spearwife, kick the guard in the junk and take the spear. She's gained the trust and can still slit the guards throat.

Dragon-napping: yay, artificial cliff hanger.

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Glad to hear Ramsay will be in it. But as a purist, this season has been painful. The show only uses the books as a guideline now. Don't say it's because of "budget." Last season stayed very close to the books, and a lot of plots/scenes have been added. Most of the dialogue in the show now never happened in the books.

Most of the changes this season have been to spice it up. Nothing really happens in the Dany story, so they added her dragons being stolen to make it more entertaining. Same with Jon and Craster and now John and Ygritte. Most of the changes, like these, make perfect sense for TV as they are more entertaining than the scenes in the book.

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Are we sure that Osha and the Stark kids are going to be hiding in the crypts? With the way things are going this season, I wouldn't be surprised if they just leave Winterfell all together and start out towards the Wall.

I had that exact same thought! But that leaves the death of the Maester unresolved, too.

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First Impressions:

I've overused this expression but it becomes more and more true. If any purist survived the first five episodes, their heads exploded this week. Massive changes. This doesn't bother me, the show is the show and the books are the books. I am happy when they change things because I get surprised.

Again, they followed last week's reverse formula of starting with the big bang. Other than Theon's first speech to Bran (which seemed forced exposition, and out of place in such an emotional place), excellent scene.

The Jon scenes were well done but formulaic, nothing special. I don't like Ygritte in the books, and I don't like her here. She is a paint by numbers stereotype in both formats. The Halfhand is good, but not great.

Arya and Tywin are just great, no moment will match "Anyone can die.", but another well crafted scene between them. I think we will see the cold heart of Tywin when he leaves without saying a word and passes her off to Vargo Hoat. Littlefinger knowing where Arya is opens up all kinds of possibilities. I loved Lorch's death.

The High Septon looks exactly like the Spice Merchant. The riot was very well done. Hopefully that will quiet the mewing of the Hound's posse here.

Dany/Spice King was effective and ends with the huge bang. Glad they are going to give Dany something heroic to do. Likely leading to the return of Barristan.

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So am I guessing this is what happens next

1. Doreah gets killed for betraying Queen Dany

2. Ramsay Snow ambushes the Iron Born troops takes their dressings on his own men, so when Theon thinks that the Iron Born are coming to help him, it is in fact the Boltons in disguise. They knock out or kill Theon (I don't put it past D and D) and put the castle to the torch. Good way of setting things up that way if anyone sees it they will see Kraken banners and gear not flayed man of The Dreadfort.

3. I miss Roose's hair . . where is his long black thin hair? They couldn't get this guy a wig?

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Is it just me or is the actor playing the High Septon the same person playing Qarth's Spice Merchant?

Welcome to Westeros, Lemoncurd, first post! I'd have to look at the cast list, but I think they're different.

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I didn't like them in the books, but something about TV-Ygritte is endearing. Maybe I'll start to dislike her healthily after the 10th "You know nothing, Jon Snow," but I right now I like this Ygritte a lot. Right now she's spirited without being obnoxious, although maybe the obnoxious part will come out soon.

I realize I represent the minority here but--I WISH the Ygritte was more like the one in the books, a tough disheveled experienced folksy "obnoxious" warrior. I loved her the way she was in the books, and I feel like the version on the show is kind of a pretty eye-shadow-bearing sanitized version designed to appeal to most of us today. I just -- that's not really who she IS, and I think what's awesome about the book is being able to mold together and establish the very tension between the opposites in John Snow and Ygritte. Being able to accept and appreciate the love they feel for each other, despite being so very different in so many regards. And I really don't think Ygritte is that obnoxious, "You know nothing John Snow" makes sense to me, coming from a lady who has been trained to survive in the harshest environment in the seven kingdoms. Wouldn't YOU feel the same way, confronted with somebody who had it relatively easy, who had so many opinions that disagreed with the ones you were raised with?

I wanted a more authentic wildling in Ygritte, and I think that's crucial to the love story unfolding between them. When Jon Snow (SPOILER ALERT) realizes she is dead, I don't want to feel like I'm watching the ending of the Titanic -- because it's not so simplistic. It's that Jon Snow simply cannot ultimately overcome the cultural barrier between him and a wildling -- not just because they are on two sides of the war, but also because they are two very different personalities. He knows he cannot trust her. I'm rambling.

As for Tywin -- very similar views here. It's not that I dislike the Tywin scenes, but I do call into question whether it REALLY is Tywin Lannister showing respect and interest to a servant. This is the guy who had a full barracks of men rape a woman his son married because she was simply not royalty, in order to embed a sense of discrimination in his son. Tywin's message - there are rulers, and there are ruled, and if you are a ruler, then any woman not of royalty is a whore (after your riches), and this is to make sure you NEVER make the mistake of bridging that divide. So... Yes, there is grey in ASoIaF, but different shades of grey: Tywin WAS a very prejudiced man, and that makes perfect sense given the inevitably hierarchical medieval Machiavellian setting he lived in, and I do think people should appreciate that, or at the very least be exposed to it. That system of oligarchical conquest persisted for a while... it didn't change much until the rapid advances in the economy and in weapon technology which created less incentive and a sort of deterrent to non-stop conquest (no longer needed to plunder others to have enough natural resources, and the risk was higher), and also decentralized protection; protection which peasants formerly heavily relied on the ruling class to provide.

There are these notions we often have of "uncivilized", "racist", "classist", or "sexist" just being an unfortunate *happenstance* of the past, rather than realizing their existence and early development were (pretty much) inevitable and "logical" outcomes given historical context. I feel like the book/author strongly embodies this sentiment, which I think ultimately represents appreciating "grey" in all the characters--NOT this "everybody has a good heart" rubbish that seems to be a common TV series pitch these days.

So... yeah I'd like to see Ygritte and Tywin a little LESS endearing, the way they were in the books. :P

Doubt many will read this, but feel free to PM me if you disagree!

Edited by BastardOfWinterfell

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