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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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Another needless add-on: Osha sleeping with Theon. Just more gratuitous nudity again. It wasn't necessary to her plot to spirit the boys out of Winterfell, she could just have waited for Theon to be asleep normally and do all the rest.

Maybe she wanted to tire him out? :P

I thought she was going to tie him up afterwards or something (maybe she did?) instead of sleeping with him and then leave.

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The Ugly:

-Jon and Ygritte cuddle scene... Ugh... They're forcing this romance on us the worst possible way imaginable.

-Robb and "Talisa". Worst thing this season.

Don't really understand the complaints with Jon and Ygritte. The books forced the relationship on us as well. I actually find the show more believable in how Ygritte starts "warming" up to Jon. In the books, he let her go and that one act of kindness has her smitten with him (probably not the right word, since she doesn't act head over heels for him like a teenage girl, but her interest in Jon seems way more forced in the books than it does on the show). Here, we can actually see the kindling of that spark.

I agree with you in regards to Robb and Talisa though. I was hoping that since we never saw this romance, HBO could give it a breath of life. Instead, it's just completely unoriginal, and I feel Robb should act a little more like the child that he is, considering this is the first woman/girl he's trying to win over.

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Because he doesnt want her to tell Mance she saw men of the NW... I think Jon is lost as to what to do with her, but doesnt want to let her go.

I'm not quite sure where your confusion lies.

Why were they killing her in the first place? Two stated reasons:

1- Because they don't have enough food to feed her if they let her live.

2- Because if they let her go, she would run and alert Mance Rayder and his people of their presence and bring some Wildings back with her to kill em.

Why was he chasing her after he failed to kill her? Please see point 2.

Which then brings you to point 1 - still not enough food to surive. So back to why did he chase her - he all ready made the decision to not kill her when he intentionally missed the swing and he knows he can't keep them both alive. So he made the choice to let her live - to what end? To bring her to Quorin - well, we know what he will do. Dead Ygritte.

Bring her to Mance? Nope, can't do that because then not only have you let her live to get the info to the WIldlings but you've also given yourself and your nice sword up. Jon dead.

Bring her to the Wall? Not enough food. both dead.

So how does letting her live, then chasing her down then just falling asleep next to her make sense? It doesn't

Edited by Greywolf2375

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Mixed feelings about this episode.

What I liked:

- Theon taking over Winterfell

- The riot at King's Landing- very emotional and tense scene. The Hound to the rescue! Could have done with more Joffrey slapping though.

- Bolton's Bastard!!

- Dany possibly showing a hint of Targaryen madness- claiming her "birthright", delusional about the difficulties involved in taking the iron throne, and expecting everyone's help, despite a very logical argument from the Spice King that it's a bad investment

What I didn't like (after reflection mostly this one scene):

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

This. Coming from a huge book-Jon fan, this whole scene was terrible. Why did Qhorin and company leave him so far behind? Did Jon's sword miss her neck? I doubt it, but if he missed on purpose, he obviously chose to let her go. Except then he chases her because he can't make up his mind. Come on Jon, either kill her or let her go! This makes him look like a complete moron because he is not thinking anything through, since he obviously can't return to Qhorin with Ygritte alive and in tow. The whole time he was chasing her was precious time that could have been used elsewhere. And he and the rangers lost each other?? Seriously?

The only explanation I can think of is that they are not going to have Jon kill Qhorin. I hope this isn't the case because it's significant for his character development. But this might be crossing the line to have a protagonist do this on TV.

Things I'm not sure about:

- Robb and Talisa/Jeyne. I'm not really sure how that will play out but I'm reserving judgment.

- Stealing Dragons. Quite a big change obviously, but I suppose it makes her storyline more interesting, and as one of the most major characters, I'm ok with giving her more to do so she has more screen time.

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Don't really understand the complaints with Jon and Ygritte. The books forced the relationship on us as well. I actually find the show more believable in how Ygritte starts "warming" up to Jon. In the books, he let her go and that one act of kindness has her smitten with him (probably not the right word, since she doesn't act head over heels for him like a teenage girl, but her interest in Jon seems way more forced in the books than it does on the show). Here, we can actually see the kindling of that spark.

The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

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Maybe she wanted to tire him out? :P

I thought she was going to tie him up afterwards or something (maybe she did?) instead of sleeping with him and then leave.

I may not have paid close enough attention, but I thought the sex scene was to get the shackles off of her ankles so that she could lead the escape.

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So, just one more thing about the scene that really has me shaking my head (and its not the dragon kidnapping scene; Dany needs to do something, it makes a certain kind of sense and I am willing to let that play out- it may work):

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

And remember Ghost? What was he doing? Is Ghost really even here at this point? Was he in the back going, "Jesus... fuck me... all the running ... Jon she... she's just going to try to kill you in your sleep... I'm not chasing that...she's gotta be... what? Ten fifteen yards away at this point... I could turn an ankle and ... and he nearest hospital is, like 1,500 years away so... and I am NOT going back to Craster's nosireeBob... So, I'm just going to stay over here and wait to see how all this turns out- why don't you chase the redhead and I'll just watch ..."

And my favorite part was when they first capture Ygritte and Qhorin Half-hand is like, "Don't bother asking her any questions; she won't answer them..." And then they proceed to ask her questions and she answers every single one. Somebody has to be a better proof-reader.

Okay, seriously, why is he chasing her?

(and one final note: I think this may be one gigantic circumnavigation around Jon's orders to betray the Watch and stay with the wildings and make it so Half-hand actually THINKS Jon has gone over to the wildings. This may end up with Jon REALLY fighting Halfhand and REALLY being taken in by the wildings. If that is the case... then I think ... then I think it goes from being "Nitpicking" to "Oh, this is just bad.")

Jesus, man, chill out

He chases her because he didn't LET her go. He just didn't KILL her. She's still a wilding who can give away their position if she goes free.

It's a freaking conundrum for him. It's called drama and building tension. Eventually he will probably HAVE to let her go, for the reasons you said. But it's a difficult decision between honor/loyalty and not wanting to kill a women. It's basically a small sample of his ENTIRE plot for book three. I think it's perfect

Yes, it's a change from the book, but deal with it. It's not huge, it works for TV and it's fun

Also, she did not answer every question, basically didn't answer the most important one. WHY are the wildlings gathering there?

Edited by axels15

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Maybe she wanted to tire him out? :P

I thought she was going to tie him up afterwards or something (maybe she did?) instead of sleeping with him and then leave.

She needed to be free. That way she wasn't locked up under guard

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What's with everybody this season treating Jon as some kind of an idiot this season and rubbing it in his face repeatedly, BTW? I don't even like him and yet it starting to get annoying and too much. Craster, the Old Bear, now Qhorin and Ygritte... How would the writers sell to the viewers Jon being chosen for Lord Commander so young when they keep presenting him as an incompetent fool?

What was that "You are even dumber than you look" line for?

Edited by David Selig

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The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

You're acting as if he's thinking his actions all the way through. The entire point of having him bring down the sword is that up until the last second he didn't know he wasn't going to kill her. His train of though is roughly "whew, avoided that moral quandary. Why did Qhorin want me to kill her in the first place? ... OH MY GOD SHE'S RUNNING TO TELL EVERYONE!"

As to Qhorin and the rest of them leaving that's really Martin's fault. "Alright, I know you're just a green boy with a history of insubordination who has really big qualms about killing this relatively innocent girl, but it's absolutely imperative that you do it. We'll just leave you completely unsupervised to do it."

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Jesus, man, chill out

He chases her because he didn't LET her go. He just didn't KILL her. She's still a wilding who can give away their position if she goes free.

It's a freaking conundrum for him. It's called drama and building tension. Eventually he will probably HAVE to let her go, for the reasons you said. But it's a difficult decision between honor/loyalty and not wanting to kill a women. It's basically a small sample of his ENTIRE plot for book three. I think it's perfect

Yes, it's a change from the book, but deal with it. It's not huge, it works for TV and it's fun

No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

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You're acting as if he's thinking his actions all the way through. The entire point of having him bring down the sword is that up until the last second he didn't know he wasn't going to kill her. His train of though is roughly "whew, avoided that moral quandary. Why did Qhorin want me to kill her in the first place? ... OH MY GOD SHE'S RUNNING TO TELL EVERYONE!"

As to Qhorin and the rest of them leaving that's really Martin's fault. "Alright, I know you're just a green boy with a history of insubordination who has really big qualms about killing this relatively innocent girl, but it's absolutely imperative that you do it. We'll just leave you completely unsupervised to do it."

Yet somehow Jon was able to catch up to them in the source material, so it isn't Martin's fault. And the same conumdrum that faced Jon here was also present in the book - so it's not like the problem was created without a potential solution available.

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So, just one more thing about the scene that really has me shaking my head (and its not the dragon kidnapping scene; Dany needs to do something, it makes a certain kind of sense and I am willing to let that play out- it may work):

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

And remember Ghost? What was he doing? Is Ghost really even here at this point? Was he in the back going, "Jesus... fuck me... all the running ... Jon she... she's just going to try to kill you in your sleep... I'm not chasing that...she's gotta be... what? Ten fifteen yards away at this point... I could turn an ankle and ... and he nearest hospital is, like 1,500 years away so... and I am NOT going back to Craster's nosireeBob... So, I'm just going to stay over here and wait to see how all this turns out- why don't you chase the redhead and I'll just watch ..."

And my favorite part was when they first capture Ygritte and Qhorin Half-hand is like, "Don't bother asking her any questions; she won't answer them..." And then they proceed to ask her questions and she answers every single one. Somebody has to be a better proof-reader.

Okay, seriously, why is he chasing her?

(and one final note: I think this may be one gigantic circumnavigation around Jon's orders to betray the Watch and stay with the wildings and make it so Half-hand actually THINKS Jon has gone over to the wildings. This may end up with Jon REALLY fighting Halfhand and REALLY being taken in by the wildings. If that is the case... then I think ... then I think it goes from being "Nitpicking" to "Oh, this is just bad.")

Wow, you really hate this series. Of all the posters you seem to be the most negative.

I completely disagree with your views on this show. I actually cannot imagine i being better. Almost every change that has been made is an improvement on the source material and makes for a tighter more interesting show.

And Jon chased Ygritte for any of many reasons not the least of which is to prevent her from warning the free folk, and because he was supposed to have killed her.

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Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

I thought I mentioned it in my post. It appears this Jon is nervous over the prospect of an escaped Ygritte blowing their cover. He can't bring himself to kill her, so he'd rather try and drag her along as a prisoner. To me, it's not such an insane alteration.

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How did Roose know that Theon had killed Ser Rodrik? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luwin's raven says the following: "Ironmen have taken Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy in command."

This was sent before Theon had killed Rodrik, when Luwin was desperately getting his raven off mid-takeover. Yet Roose knows that he's dead, despite (presumably) only reading the above.

Sup?

And he set Luwin to his Maester duties immediately after killing him. Sending ravens to his father and sister. Surely Maester Luwin couldn't have sent a second one to Rivverun. (Where I assume he was sending the ones for Robb)

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The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

It's pretty simple, really: he could not bring himself to kill her but he didn't want her to escape back to the Wilding camp and give the alarm. Jon is very young and completely inexperienced with women. He is a man of honor, however, and killing a woman----even a Wilding woman----is not really possible for him.

I thought this scene was ok and can't complain about it.

The thing I don't understand in the comments so far is this putative sympathy for Theon. Theon is a weak man and self-obsessed to boot. It may all be a function of his life as a hostage. I don't know and don't care. He has always been a user of others----Roz comes to mind. He's basically insecure and makes a willing sycophant for any stronger person who confronts him---Robb, his father, even Dagmar. He's a totally vile piece of crap and deserves what happens to him at the hands of Ramsay Snow/Bolton.

Maise/Arya is just getting better and better!

Why didn't that turd hit Joffrey in the mouth?

Anybody else think the actor playing Jaqen looks like Brad Pitt? (SIAP)

I prefer Osha neck-down to neck-up.

Creepy scene between Cersei and Tyrion at Myrcella's departure. Could this refer to Sansa?

I wanted this episode to never end. It might be the best yet for me.

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Yet somehow Jon was able to catch up to them in the source material, so it isn't Martin's fault. And the same conumdrum that faced Jon here was also present in the book - so it's not like the problem was created without a potential solution available.

You're exactly right. But like I said, this is for television now.

A chase scene is good for TV. Turning around and letting her walk away isn't. Furthermore, because we're not going to see a Shakespeare-like Montage, and because we can't hear Jon's thoughts, simple turning around and letting her go doesn't serve to show what a difficult decision it is.

He has to make a choice and he can't. So he runs after her, fearing what will happen if she goes free. Eventually, he'll get back to his men, and let her go, I think. If he doesn't, it's a big change and something that I'll have to review as we get to it. But as of now, assuming it goes how I think, it doesn't change anything significantly and I think it adds to the television production.

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No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

Unlike the situation with Gilly, Jon has no option involving leaving Ygritte behind. It's "Do as I say, not as I do." Jon can't bring himself to kill Ygritte. He either has to let her go, and allow her to blow Night Watch cover, or drag her along. Telling Sam to leave Gilly behind was easy.

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This is where the entire series goes to hell. I can't believe that so many people are in favor of the changes. I have fallen in love with the TV series so far because it has been so faithful to the books. Afterall, it just makes good sense to go with the plot that has been proven to work. Why change what isn't broken?

I guess I should deviate from other posters and say why the changes will not work...

Arya - Peter Baelish is in love with Catelyn; there is no way he wouldn't have recognized Arya

The second death was too quick; its not how the faceless men work

Bran- No Meera and Jojen Reed; they are kindred spirits of Bran and Rickon

Daenerys- Why? The notion that the dragons could be stolen takes away from Daenerys credibility as a natural ruler and is just unnecessary; it also makes the warlocks seem to be a force to be reckoned with; in the book it gives the impression that they are merely illusionists and not particularly good at what they do

Jon Snow- Ygritte in the book initially despises Jon Snow; the idea that she would come on to him when he is a crow and not yet proven himself to be a Wilding is ridiculous and ruins the entire character of Ygritte; how can her character have any credibility now?

the riot- completely different from the book; they are on horses in the book I believe; having Tyrion insult and slap the King again is taking things too far, it is not believeable and there is no reason that Joffrey would not just have had him killed at this point;

Talissa- obviously this will become Robb's wife Jeyne Westerling; but the book insists that Robb's decision was one of impulse and haste; that the relationship developed over time has completely different implications

______________________________________________________________________

Mark my words, this is the end of everything good about the Game of Thrones TV series. Every time a hack screenwriter has the arrogance to think he can do it better it almost always turns out bad.

This is truly the end!!!

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This is where the entire series goes to hell. I can't believe that so many people are in favor of the changes. I have fallen in love with the TV series so far because it has been so faithful to the books. Afterall, it just makes good sense to go with the plot that has been proven to work. Why change what isn't broken?

I guess I should deviate from other posters and say why the changes will not work...

Arya - Peter Baelish is in love with Catelyn; there is no way he wouldn't have recognized Arya

The second death was too quick; its not how the faceless men work

Bran- No Meera and Jojen Reed; they are kindred spirits of Bran and Rickon

Daenerys- Why? The notion that the dragons could be stolen takes away from Daenerys credibility as a natural ruler and is just unnecessary; it also makes the warlocks seem to be a force to be reckoned with; in the book it gives the impression that they are merely illusionists and not particularly good at what they do

Jon Snow- Ygritte in the book initially despises Jon Snow; the idea that she would come on to him when he is a crow and not yet proven himself to be a Wilding is ridiculous and ruins the entire character of Ygritte; how can her character have any credibility now?

the riot- completely different from the book; they are on horses in the book I believe; having Tyrion insult and slap the King again is taking things too far, it is not believeable and there is no reason that Joffrey would not just have had him killed at this point;

Talissa- obviously this will become Robb's wife Jeyne Westerling; but the book insists that Robb's decision was one of impulse and haste; that the relationship developed over time has completely different implications

______________________________________________________________________

Mark my words, this is the end of everything good about the Game of Thrones TV series. Every time a hack screenwriter has the arrogance to think he can do it better it almost always turns out bad.

This is truly the end!!!

You named yourself well.

Eponymous much?

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