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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

The entire point is that Jon doesn't really understand, not in the visceral, instinctual way Qhorin or Ygritte does. All he knows is he can't kill her, he's not prepared to let her go, and Qhorin's not gonna let him bring her along. What's a poor bastard to do? Conveniently bed down with her to delay the point when he has to make a decision, apparently. He knows it's a terrible idea to keep her with him, but he can't bring himself to do either of the alternatives, yet. (I'm actually betting she'll just give him the slip during the night.)

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That was a great episode, even though we had no Stannis. It reminded me of just how much I hated Theon before Ramsay made me pity him, how much of a little piece of sh-- he was. I also absolutely adored how delirious and stupidly megalomaniac Daenerys already sounded this episode, something I only truly felt in ASoS and, mostly, ADwD. Oh, and the spice merchant's condescending tone was just priceless! lol I love that guy! I don't know how to feel about the dragons being stolen yet, but was that tower the House of the Undying?

And was it my impression, or is Arya actually beginning to like Tywin? Can't really blame her, and thumbs up for this show for showing just how great their dynamics would be.

Nat Tena is simply perfect as Osha, no wonder GRRM wants to expand the character's role based on her acting! I love the animalistic aura she gives the character. And Rodrik... truly the saddest death so far, maybe even sadder than Ned's where the show is concerned (but that's only until season 3 or 4 kills my favorite Dornish, of course).

And really, does Littlefinger have to appear so much like a noob this season? I wonder if Martin approves it, and if he does, if that could be considered a clue to his general incompetence in the last two books. Watching him this season destroys all my illusions the same way reading Cersei's chapters in AFFC did.

Oh, and I liked what they did to that crucial scene in KL, with all the alterations. I don't think it would have been easy to use horses on that scene like in the book. I also think it was a good idea to change slightly the attack on Sansa, builds up the tension. For a moment I actually thought she'd be the new Lollys. And the septon... ugh...

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I rated this a solid seven. It's hard to still like the changes and to accept the budget of the show -- it just doesn't mesh with the world George has created -- but I did like this episode. it was solid writing, solid acting, though the end was particularly awful.

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Off topic of last night's episode, but I get absolutely ZERO work done on Monday's now. It's 1:30 now and I have done nothing since I got to work at 8:00 except for reading recaps/reading comments/leaving comments/re-watching episode on HBOGO/more reading comments/more leaving comments/etc. WHEW! This is ridiculous, especially considering how busy it is at my work right now, but oh well... only four weeks left and then it's all over.

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I thought it was really cool when Dany said she has dreams that come true. So,it looks like she inherited the Targ family gift. She did seem a little off her rocker saying it, though. I wonder if Jorah was like "Uh oh...here we go again,,,the Mad Queen."

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With few exceptions this season, I have agreed with this websites analysis of episodes. Whether I have agreed or disagreed, they have always been poignant, insightful, and great to read. This weeks edition is no exception to the latter, but I have an almost diametrically opposed outlook on the episode itself.

Starting with the sack of Winterfell. I was with this scene the entire way until the emergence of Ser Rodrik Cassel. It was well shot, well written, and emotionally engaging the entire way. The problem I had was the content. There is a huge difference in my mind of killing a mouthy commoner and executing the man who helped raise Theon and trained him how to use a sword. It is absolutely plot essential that the character of Theon Greyjoy becomes redeemed for the future of this series. By eliminating the Reek character to take the blame for the majority of the dastardly actions is going to make it that much harder for the television audience to do. I do console myself with the fact that there have been other changes made to the character that makes this a bit more possible.

I don't really like the setting of Iceland as the backdrop for North of the Wall. It is too barren for me to believe that there are 100,000 wildlings living off the land. It also looks like a miserable place to film. That is good in the sense that on screen, we can see that the characters are actually cold, but because of this, I also get the impression that they aren't able to give their best performances. Dialogue just feels rushed in these scenes, and I don't blame the actors. It is freezing out side in this location. I personally would rather have seen North of the Wall left in last years location of Ireland.

The main complaint that I hear about these scenes with John Snow and Ygritte I had no problem with though. Yes, it is a change from the book, but as of this episode, it doesn't take away from either of the characters. I have no problem with John running after a fleeing wildling. We only have so much room in the TV series, and the meat of the story here is Snow's relationship with the wildlings and Ygrette. As for why Ghost didn't chase her with John, my question would be if you had trained your animal, wouldn't you have given it a command to unleash it on someone? As he was running after her to capture, it makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't have called his direwolf to do a job that he himself had decided that he wasn't going to do. I also particularly liked the scene where Ygrette was teasing John. I thought it was a brilliant way of showing physically the struggles that Snow went through in his head that we just can not be privy to in the medium of film.

I took no issue with Harrenhall at all. I liked the mix up in communication for several reasons. It highlighted that Tywin was surrounded by incompetents in the war. This was not extolled upon in the books as we didn't have a POV in his camp, but it must have been happening for him to have lost so many battles decisively. It also again gave us the opportunity to realize that Arya is incredibly sharp witted. I particularly liked the humanization of Tywin as a man who loved his children, but was hard as stone. I think that Arya saw a little bit of her own father in him, and I think that fits perfectly with the theme that there are no heroes, or villains in this world.

As a reader, I obviously had the foreknowledge that Arya was not going to be discovered by Littlefinger. The vast majority of people watching this show have not read the books, and I thought that this scene built up a bit of suspense for them. I also thought that the urgent need to use her second name was a clever way of getting rid of it. I can see the point that no other gaurds helped Lorch in trying to detain Arya, but it did not immediately pop out to me as particularly egregious. I didn't even realize it until that had been pointed out.

Since I have nothing to say about the riot of King's Landing except that it was absolutely brilliant in every aspect of my mind, I will wrap this up with Quarth. From reading the books, I never got the impression that the entire city was supposed to be other worldly. The Quarth in my mind doesn't look too terribly different from the one that I am being shown. I did get the sense that the House of the Undying was like a 70's acid trip, but the rest of Quarth just seemed to be filled with people of ambition. I personally liked Dany's interaction with the spice lord. It showed her as a naive youth, but also as a person who had the potential to come into serious power and leadership abilities. It justifies her journey later as we as viewers know that she has to mature. As far as the dragons go, This is just another example of John getting clobbered across the head by Craster. It won't mean anything in the long run

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Im SOOOOOOOOOoooooo HAPPY Sandor Clegane got to do more than just stand around looking bored or annoyed!!!!!!!!!!!!

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy...........................

*happy dance*

They brutalized Sansa's rescue but I did like it....made it more dramatic

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The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

IMO, it didn't make sense for Ygritte to escape only to be caught and presumably released again. However, wildling women seem to have esteem only for men who have taken or stolen them. So, Jon's capture and keeping of her gives a good lead in for her role in bringing him into the Rayder fold. Still question the omission of Halfhand's instruction to Jon to do what needs to be done rather than apparently instructing Jon to kill her.

As one who found the whole Snow beyond the Wall to be tedious in the books, I think Ygritte adds a lot. Plus, the actress is pretty foxy. Me like.

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The best episode so far, IMO!

Good:

  • The sack of Winterfell and Rodrik's 'demise'. Intense stuff and very convincing performance by Isaac, he seemed truly desperate and horrified.
  • The street riots at King's Landing and particularly Sansa's rape scene. In some ways the 'scene' was more impactful in the book (especially the aftermath), but the scene was exciting nonetheless and I really felt pity for Sansa, although Sandor came to her rescue before she was violated.
  • Charles Dance and Maisie, particularly the scene where she tries to hide her identity. It must be great for a young, talented actress to get so much screentime with an experienced actor of Dance's caliber.
  • Jon Snow meets Ygritte. The actress who plays Ygritte was surprisingly good. I really look forward to seeing more of her. And she was also much more attractive than suggested in the books, but I'm not complaining :)

Bad:

  • The scenes with Dany seems a bit 'detached'.This is also how I felt when reading the books as well, but on the other hand her story gets a lot more interesting in book 3.

Overall, this episode had a nice blend of excitement, action and dialogue scenes. When compared to the best episodes of season one, it's still not quite there, I think, but there are four episodes left, and the Darkwater episode in particular has great potential.

EDIT: I rated this episode 9/10, BTW. Why not 10/10? Because a ) a few episodes from season one was slightly better (the first and ninth episodes from season one were excellent) b ) I wouldn't be surprised if some of the last episodes (Blackwater perhaps?) turn out to be even better than this one.

EDIT 2: One more thing: I can't recall that the dragons were stolen (in the books), but I don't think it's too dramatic. For all I know, the sequence just serves as a cliffhanger for the next episode, and then the dragons will be brought back.

Edited by Arya The Assassin

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Something that came up in the nitpick thread but I think are larger questions than that...the news is around that Renly is dead and - based on what we saw from Cersei & Tyrion - it is not a given that it was not Catelyn and/or Brienne. So why doesn't Robb ask his mother about that...and even forgetting that...why doesn't he ask, or get introduced to, this 6'3" puppy dog Catelyn has picked up along the way? These are people that, from a common knowledge perspective, may be responsible for Renly's death.

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The thing I wonder about they're going to keep Theon in the show for seasons 3/4 when he's completely "off screen" but two full books. After this season I'm sure he's going to be a fan favorite so they'll want to keep him around. I think the producers are going to combine AFFC and ADWD like GRRM intended them to be. So Season 5 or 5/6 will be blended storylines from both books.

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I loved it when Qhorin started talking about Jon's death. I was like, "aww you know he's gonna die, we know too!"

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That episode was amazing! I loved when The Hound saved Sansa from those men and said "The little bird is bleeding, someone take her back to her cage". There was only two parts of the episode I didn't really like...

1) I didn't like the way Amory Lorch died. It was a funny scene and everything, but kind of dumb.

2) I rolled my eyes when Dany started saying "I am Daenerys Stormborn, mother of dragons, I will take what is mine with fire and blood" blah blah blah Dany we've heard it a hundred times already. You can shut up now.

The way Dany is talking you'd think she's going to sail for Westeros next episode or something.

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Stolen Dragons! Those damn Warlocks! Great twist away from the books. I also love the Arya and Tywin interactions their personalities mesh and this is an improvement from the books in my opinion. I'm also interested to see if Ramsey burns Winterfledt as soon as he takes it over or Robb's marrying that foreign girls springs it. It's also interesting they aren't setting up Tywin using the Westerling Daughter to drive a wedge between the north and the Frey

On the dragons, my immediate reaction was that it was Xaro. They had that long delay with the Spice King, and since Dany is in his house, he was the first one I thought of. In the book, Xaro has zero interest in helping Dany conquer the Seven Kingdoms so the show has got to make him do something to betray her or it will make no sense that she doesn't accept his perfect offer of ships and tons of money to help her reclaim the Iron Throne.

On Robb's woman, I think their scene tonight had a lot of clues in it. I think she is Jeyne Westerling and her story about being from Volantis is completely made up. Robb notices that she is highborn, and Catelyn notices that her family is completely fake. I also think her line about sending information on Robb's troop movements to the Lannisters was really telling. I think they are going to perhaps make her a full blown spy for the Lannisters. She was writing a letter, which as we saw with Arya indicates noble birth, and her joke about it being information for the Lannisters just struck me as true. She definitely folded it up quickly so that Robb and Catelyn couldn't get a look at it. Also, in the scene with Tywin talking about how they are going to defeat Robb, he clearly laid out that they won't beat him in battle and that they need to find out a way to make him fail. We know that failure happens with the Red Wedding, and I think in the same way Margery Tyrell is a combination of her character and her scheming grandmother, Jeyne could be a combination of her and her mother, making Jeyne the mole who reported to Tywin and worked to take Robb down.

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Tywin - The dislexia line caught me unaware. I don't know what to make of Tywin as a parent after that.

I think this was a key insight into their relationship. Jaime was Tywin's heir, and Tywin was damned sure Jaime's illiteracy was not going to harm the house the way his father's "weakness" did. Showed, to me at least, that he while he cares for Jaime he cares more about the legacy Jaime will leave, much like his intro speech in Season 1 showed.

nerd-rage

Reading and watching nerd-rage is always good for a laugh because...

What the hell HBO? :shocked: Where is my ASOIAF???

It's on your bookshelf. This isn't A Song of Ice and Fire. This is Game of Thrones. The sooner people understand this, that this is a television series based on the books and it can never be 100%, let alone 90% or even 80% accurate, the sooner they can lay off the nerd-rage.

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Another needless add-on: Osha sleeping with Theon. Just more gratuitous nudity again. It wasn't necessary to her plot to spirit the boys out of Winterfell, she could just have waited for Theon to be asleep normally and do all the rest. But, that way there would be no bewbies, derp.

I thought this was a great added scene. It builds on the scene between the two from the first season, and keeps non-readers guessing where her loyalties lie for a little longer. Also, that whole scene after she wakes up next to Theon, goes outside, seduces and kills the guard and then whistles to and escapes with Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the direwolves was perfectly executed.

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