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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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That episode was amazing! I loved when The Hound saved Sansa from those men and said "The little bird is bleeding, someone take her back to her cage". There was only two parts of the episode I didn't really like...

1) I didn't like the way Amory Lorch died. It was a funny scene and everything, but kind of dumb.

2) I rolled my eyes when Dany started saying "I am Daenerys Stormborn, mother of dragons, I will take what is mine with fire and blood" blah blah blah Dany we've heard it a hundred times already. You can shut up now.

The way Dany is talking you'd think she's going to sail for Westeros next episode or something.

I agree, is she is supposed to be this bratty or it's the way the actress emilia is depicting her..

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Emilia Clarke can do whatever she wants with Daenerys. I'm too in love with her to turn back now.

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I thought this was a great added scene. It builds on the scene between the two from the first season, and keeps non-readers guessing where her loyalties lie for a little longer. Also, that whole scene after she wakes up next to Theon, goes outside, seduces and kills the guard and then whistles to and escapes with Bran, Rickon, Hodor and the direwolves was perfectly executed.

I agree. She "changes sides" in the books, so this was a good way to execute the change concisely while making it easy for the viewers to follow along; especially those that have not read the books. Furthermore, it's been established that Theon is an absolute ass when it comes to women (Ros, the captain's daughter, Yara/Asha, anything with boobs) and is so cocky and over-confident that it is clearly one of his weak points. While I do take issue with HBO's massive over-use of pointless sex and nude scenes, I do not take issue with this one. Also, it was tastefully done as you just saw her naked, but no actual sex scene.

Loved Bran telling Theon that he wouldn't yield the castle more confidently than Theon told him he was taking the castle. :thumbsup:

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I remember she was Maggy the Frog (Cersei's prophecy, too?), but I will be insterested to see if they take out Jeyne/Talisa's mother's role in the apparent scheme, and place it soley on Jeyne/Talisa. I wonder if the viewers will be clued in right away to the suspected plotting unlike in the books where it was only aluded to until much later. Also, would love to see a scene with Grey Wind and Jeyne/Talisa if this is the case.

Okay this whole plot involving Jeyne's mom/Freys/Boltons/Twyin - RED WEDDING is already really confusing as is! Why are they making it worse? I will be really disappointed if they turn this "Jeyne/Talisa" into a schemer. Really would be ruining the whole tragedy!

If the Blackfish did take off with Jeyne (at end of AFFC) then what??

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I remember she was Maggy the Frog (Cersei's prophecy, too?), but I will be insterested to see if they take out Jeyne/Talisa's mother's role in the apparent scheme, and place it soley on Jeyne/Talisa. I wonder if the viewers will be clued in right away to the suspected plotting unlike in the books where it was only aluded to until much later. Also, would love to see a scene with Grey Wind and Jeyne/Talisa if this is the case.

Okay this whole plot involving Jeyne's mom/Freys/Boltons/Twyin - RED WEDDING is already really confusing as is! Why are they making it worse? I will be really disappointed if they turn this "Jeyne/Talisa" into a schemer. Really would be ruining the whole tragedy!

If the Blackfish did take off with Jeyne (at end of AFFC) then what??

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I have really mixed feeling about this episode. I thought the Winterfell scenes were particulary strong, although I was wondering why this entire section of storyline was compressed into a single episode? Of all the stories from Clash, this one could have easily been extended over seasons 2 and 3 to provide some more time for some of the other plotlines.

Dany's story is a real mess. I am not suprised as it is probably the weakest set of chapters in the book, but I wasn't as upset about the silly dragon-napping plot as some. I do find Xaro exceptionally boring. So much screen time and yet I can't get invested.

I really am disliking the Harrenhal storyline. Yes - Maise and Charles Dance have great chemistry, but they are really mishandling Arya's story. The setup of Amory Lorch as illiterate, the stupid chase sequence in the courtyard, and the subsequent magic dart, was like watching bad fan fiction come to life. The idea of Arya using her 2nd death wish to eliminate and immediate threat is an interesting one, but this is what they come up with? Uggh....

And I cannot stand Aiden Gillen. Watching Littlefinger in action, is like watching paint dry.

And while I like the 'near rape' sequence of Sansa - the execution of the opening of the riot and subsequent Sandor Clegane sequence was poorly put together. This could be executed incredibly on screen, the tension slowly building and builidng, and then the explosion of violence. Instead we have starving peasants terroring limbs by hand (I know its referenced from the book but it looked silly onscreen), more moustache twirling Joffrey (who actually attempts at one point in the book to pacify the crowd by tossing some coins), and the Sandor Clegance 8000 dispatching small folks without a thought.

Just like Vanessa's first script, again this felt a first draft, some good scenes, muddled together with some nonsense. Benifoff and Weise really need some more experienced screen writers in the room.

Edited by pleonasm

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Yeah, I have to say I'm not crazy about the Harrenhal storyline.

BookArya would never have revealed she knows how to read, she was so much better as disguising herself and aware of the need to remain hidden. Which is the perfect set up for her Faceless Men future.

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Okay this whole plot involving Jeyne's mom/Freys/Boltons/Twyin - RED WEDDING is already really confusing as is! Why are they making it worse? I will be really disappointed if they turn this "Jeyne/Talisa" into a schemer. Really would be ruining the whole tragedy!

If the Blackfish did take off with Jeyne (at end of AFFC) then what??

I agree that I am not thrilled about the possibility of Jeyne being IN on the scheme as I just re-read AFFC and was reminded how she tore her dress, cried, and was basically in love with Robb and was heartbroken at having had a part in his death and being used as a pawn. While it is confusing, I wonder if GRRM is going to expand on this further in the books? The Maggy/Cersei/Spicer/Redding Wedding/Starks/Jeyne ties are interesting, for sure.

On the other hand, for the TV show, this use of Talisa/Jeyne, if it is where they are going, is interesting.

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Um... because he never set her free, he just chose not to kill her. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with this; he didn't make the choice he did in the novels of letting her go. He couldn't bring himself to kill her, but wasn't about to let her escape, either

Does that concept really need an essay-length post asking why?

Well, considering your answer is pretty bad, yes I would say it does. Jon taking Ygritte prisoner makes literally no sense because Halfhand said, like 2 minutes before, that they were not taking her captive and that Jon would execute her. So, what? Jon thinks Halfhand (a man who gave him the “This-job-sucks-and-we’re-all-hard-men-so-you-better-learn-fast” talk ) is going to drag this woman to and fro while they destroy other encampments? Is that what he is thinking? That’s amazingly stupid.

First off, he's chasing her because he didn't let her go yet. He couldn't kill her, she ran, he chased her. At this point, I don't think he really knows what to do with her.

Following a character who does not know what he is doing after he just did something really meaningful is not interesting at all. I am watching all this energy being expended on activities that have no rhyme nor reason. BTW- you could be 100% correct- Jon probably has no idea what he is doing or why he is doing it. I can grasp that. My problem is how much time it wastes on material we do not need. I think having this side-show is taking away time from other story elements, most notably, Jon Snow’s. We don't need this chase. And how do I know this? Because the book operated just fine without it.

I believe that he'll find the Halfhands encampment, but before he rejoins him, he'll "surprisingly" let Ygritte go free.

If that is the case (and I can see that happening) then it will confirm my suspicion that this is just a gigantic waste of time and to have Kit have something to do while they shuffled him off to Iceland. If he just chased her so he can release her later, I’m sorry, that’s a waste of time.

If my options were to either spend the night spooning with Ygritte or spooning with Qhorin Halfhand, I´d run after her as well!

Okay. Fair point.

1- Because they don't have enough food to feed her if they let her live.

2- Because if they let her go, she would run and alert Mance Rayder and his people of their presence and bring some Wildings back with her to kill em.

Why was he chasing her after he failed to kill her? Please see point 2.

In no way shape or form does this answer the question. You simply stated a reason Jon should have killed her. Well, we all know Jon’s not going to kill her; that ship has sailed. So, what? He’s going to … what? Drag her back to Qhiron? Okay, but Halfhand will kill her! So… what? Seriously, this chase was a mess; a convoluted trip of unnecessary traipsing to establish that Jon Snow is confused. Well, I would have gotten to that exact same place had Jon decided NOT to kill her and then let her go. That makes some sense. Here? Here Jon takes actions and then contradicts them (won’t kill her but won’t let her go either). Its not working.

If you are all correct that Jon had not decided to let her go, but had decided to kill her then it confirms my greatest fear: He’s chasing her because they have nothing else for him to do.

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On the other hand, for the TV show, this use of Talisa/Jeyne, if it is where they are going, is interesting.

I think she's just got caught in the middle of battles and used a fake identity to hide the fact that she's a daughter of a sworn bannerman of Tywin, so that Robb could not take her as a hostage.

Edited by Pliskin

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did anyone else take tha color of paper that the Westerling/Volantis girl has and the one Tywin has as a hint as to why the red wedding happens? there are pictures of what the letter says on reddit that make it seem as they are setting it up as she is the one, or Bolton for that matter, giving away their positions and movements.

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Alfie Allen, halle-fucking-luja. He was great! Isaac and Luwin (forgot the actor's name) were wonderful aswell. The Winterfell scene was better than expected, and the look on Theon's face after Rodriks decapitation was worth gold.

'Gods help you, Theon Greyjoy. Now you are truly lost.'

The Riot was intense, especially Sophie Turner during the 'rape'. Fantastic.

EDIT: Add Ygritte and Talisa to the 'hot actresses' list.

Edited by Crown

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I do really miss the general absence of animals - horses, dire wolves, dragons. I get all the reasons why but still a gap.

That said, book Ghost was frequently separated from Jon and did his own thing. And book Summer and Shaggy were also separated from Bran and Rickon for most of COK. So it's not really a big departure.

But Greywind was constantly with Robb - and this IS significant later. Also will be interesting if Greywind takes a dislike to Talisa if she really is a spy/in on the betrayal later. And if Cat notices and that's a source of tension between her an Robb.

Even with the changes, I think the show will basically end up in the same place as the books at the end of the season.

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No need to waste budget dollars on Irri, who plays no role in the book other than waiting on Dany, when you can use that on Edmure or Jojen or Meera or Ramsay.

unless it becomes unimportant that Dany uses her as a bedmate. far be it for HBO to ignore a chance to show a sexy side of a character?

or was it Doreah?

in either event, it's a tiny scene that shows a hugely frustrated side of Dany;'s character that i think leads her to do some rather unwise stuff in later books (be so hurt by Jorah's actions, crawl into bed with a mercenary, etc).

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So if Dany's handmaidens are all dead then does that mean we won't have any girl on girl action on the ship to Slaver's Bay? :frown5:

that was my thought, and woe betide HBO if they miss a chance to show boobies. *wry look* and yet _i_ would miss that scene, short as it should be, because it really gives us a glimpse into how frustrated and alone Dany truly is, and explains a bit why she makes some fairly unwise personal space choices later on, especially feeling so betrayed by Jorah (and sending him away) and screwing a mercenary Captain.

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The only thing that disappointed me about this episode is that Amory Lorch won't be fed to bears. Are the brave companions even going to be introduced? I wonder what will happen to Rorge and Biter later on, or if Jaime gets to keep his hand.

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Which then brings you to point 1 - still not enough food to surive. So back to why did he chase her - he all ready made the decision to not kill her when he intentionally missed the swing and he knows he can't keep them both alive. So he made the choice to let her live - to what end? To bring her to Quorin - well, we know what he will do. Dead Ygritte.

Bring her to Mance? Nope, can't do that because then not only have you let her live to get the info to the WIldlings but you've also given yourself and your nice sword up. Jon dead.

Bring her to the Wall? Not enough food. both dead.

So how does letting her live, then chasing her down then just falling asleep next to her make sense? It doesn't

That's the whole point of the scene. He doesn't know what to do. He's struggling to make a decision that either way will cost him and others dearly. He couldn't kill her in that moment, but he's not yet ready to let her go and put the lives of all his brother crows in danger. Unlike the book, we don't see inside Jon's head in the show, so instead they have to show us his thought process, show us his doubts, show us his moral struggles, before they show us Jon arriving at a decision.

Edited by Sun

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I agree, is she is supposed to be this bratty or it's the way the actress emilia is depicting her..

When she starts going off on fire and blood her facial expressions really remind me of Viserys from the first season. Good casting with those two.

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Robb's character butchered? check

jon snow's character butchered? check

but umm we got another scene of tywin being oblivious. sooooo, let's just continue making plot decisions based on casting

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