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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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Well... after this last episode, I guess next week we'll see lord Tywin burn down Harrenhall and everyone in it.

I love the actors. Their performances are amazing.

But I feel the producers are destroying characters, cutting away at their essence.

I can get past the fact that BLACK Lorren is blonde. But why do they have to mess with lord Tywin?

He's a masterpiece of a character. George R. R. Martin constructed him perfectly, a hard, family man, always wanting to win, not wanting to make any compromises. From the books I only know lord Tywin to lose his cool once - "They have my son!".

And now I see him looking like a combination between a spolied brat and an old woman, always shouting and humiliating people.

Lord Tywin does not humiliate you. He destroys you!

He's a powerful man, not an every-day villain. Please don't ruin him! Don't turn him into a Joker-like villain!

The scene with Amory Lorch, although funny as hell, would mean only one thing in the books: The burning of Harrenhall.

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I don't mind the synthesis of characters and storylines to make the TV narrative more seemless and forum conscious. However, I really wanted to see that bear eat Amory Lorch.

The dragon-knapping was a great plot device to get Dany to go to the House of the Undying. No matter what Dany's motivation for going to visit the warlocks, D&D simply cannot remove the visions she obtains there to keep the overall Fire & Ice saga intact. I understand this show is called Game of Thrones, but it is still the Song of Ice and Fire. The foundation for Lightbringer and R'hllor has been lain, therefore, there must be a foundation for the Prince Who was Promised and the Song of Ice and Fire that is prophesized in the Rhaegar vision.

Subject to the foregoing, the episode was splendid and the Hound stole the show.

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I love the way the Spice Merchant speaks to bratty Daenery, I just can help but laugh with pleasure. " have you sat on the Iron Throne before? .....

D: "No but my father did"

Emily C is really acting her part well. " I will take what is mine with Fire and blood."

I loved the riot scene , everything : Tyrion slap, Sansa attack and The Hound to the rescue.

So now the dear Queen to be of westeros is the Khalasie of...... what? zero people only Jorah and the only dothraky left? or am I wrong. I did see some dothraky on the floor and since there were only few of them to begin with . ho well I cannot complain this episode was good.

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That's the whole point of the scene. He doesn't know what to do. He's struggling to make a decision that either way will cost him and others dearly. He couldn't kill her in that moment, but he's not yet ready to let her go and put the lives of all his brother crows in danger. Unlike the book, we don't see inside Jon's head in the show, so instead they have to show us his thought process, show us his doubts, show us his moral struggles, before they show us Jon arriving at a decision.

I think you are spot-on. It's possible that they are just setting up more "bonding time" between Jon and Ygritte. I think he will let her go before he joins back up with Quorin and then things will be back on track with what most people believe must happen with Quorin, Jon joining the wildlings, etc.

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I saw only two dingle-dangly dragon tails swishing out the basket at the end, not three. I wonder why?

Perhaps that means the third dragonling fell out of the box, or snuck out and got away, or was out hunting wabbits when the dragonnappers arrived, or was with Ser “Just Call me Roger” Jorah on a show-and-tell mission to the ship captains, or is in the box trying to eat its own tail all Ouroboros-like, or had its poor tail lopped off, or got its widdle self squishticated in the snatch, or has already been converted into scrumpdiddlyumptious dragon tikka masala.

Hey now, I wonder who’d know just what the best spices to use in dragon tikka masala might be?

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If you are all correct that Jon had not decided to let her go, but had decided to kill her then it confirms my greatest fear: He’s chasing her because they have nothing else for him to do.

The reason that the scene works for me is because it is a way for the writers to show us the conflicting ideas about his vows and Ygrette that is only made known to the reader by John's thoughts. That is the crucial narrative out of the books with this sub plot, and I thought that the spooning scene was brilliant as it conveyed that message in an easy way for the viewer to understand.

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Rewatching the end of the episode: there is a quick moment when he have a small glimpse at the face of the man carrying the dragons and I think I identify Pyat Pree's skinny jaw.

If you are all correct that Jon had not decided to let her go, but had decided to kill her then it confirms my greatest fear: He’s chasing her because they have nothing else for him to do.

No. It's just postponing the return of Qhorin and giving the character some more time together so when they'll meet the Lord of Bones, Ygritte's vouching for Jon will be more plausible, and I like the fact that we have them just together a little longer, both because I like the actress playing Ygritte and seconly because it gives them more times together and beautiful cinematography.

Edited by Arkash

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Well... after this last episode, I guess next week we'll see lord Tywin burn down Harrenhall and everyone in it.

I love the actors. Their performances are amazing.

But I feel the producers are destroying characters, cutting away at their essence.

I can get past the fact that BLACK Lorren is blonde. But why do they have to mess with lord Tywin?

He's a masterpiece of a character. George R. R. Martin constructed him perfectly, a hard, family man, always wanting to win, not wanting to make any compromises. From the books I only know lord Tywin to lose his cool once - "They have my son!".

And now I see him looking like a combination between a spolied brat and an old woman, always shouting and humiliating people.

Lord Tywin does not humiliate you.

How do you know? We never witnessed his war councils in ACoK. We never read about him continuously receiving humiliating news from the war. We don't know how he reacted to that.

He already had the friggin' Mountain out there terrorizing the small folk, "Setting the Riverlands on fire, from the God's Eye to the Red Fork"

What more could he have done? Burning Harrenhal down? What for? No one cares about that pile of rocks. Least of all the people living there.

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Great episode

- Jon and Ygritte spooning. I lol'd.

- Tywin since he arrived at Harrenhal is reminding me of a DragonBall Z story arc. He spending multiple episodes in the same room discussing battle strategy is like Goku spending multiple episodes powering up. Tywin is about to ascend to "Super Lannister 3"

- I like the contrast of Theon and Ned in the decapitations. Ned took care of it like a Soldier and a Man. Theon looked like a kid playing war.

- The Dragons getting stolen adds a bit of excitement to Danys story. Its been stalled pretty much since the funeral pryre. I dont see how this cancels the visions in the HOTU.

- The Hound was great this episode. Although im slightly disconcerted that Sandor appears like a giant while Gregor a few epsiodes looked like an average dude. I realize that book hound is a big dude too, but the difference isnt great enough in the TV series IMO.

Forgive my mis-memory as I read the first four books one after another, but doesnt Jamie do SOMETHING in ACOK? Like Anything?

Edited by blasted_saber

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Some thoughts on episode six:

  • The fall of Winterfell was perhaps even more sudden here than in the book.
  • Theon is a real a*****e! As Rodrik said, he's truly lost now, and deserves every bad thing that comes his way.
  • Speaking of Rodrik, he met an earlier, and gruesome, death, and at the inept hands of Theon no less. That's why there are professional executioners.
  • Even if we haven't seen how it plays out, it seems that Jon Snow's defection to the Wildlings will be more accidental than planned by Qorin. If so, I don't like it. It takes away from Jon's sacrifice. And how can a little bit of running take him so far off from his brothers in the Night's Watch?
  • No stupid sex scenes, if you don't count nekkid Tonks.
  • The Littlefinger/Tywin scene lacked suspense since it's made up and we know from the books that he never saw Arya at Harrenhal.
  • But Amory Lorch got an earlier death, like the Tickler did. I have to say that this Arya choses her deaths from Jaqen better than book Arya.
  • In the riot of King's Landing, Sansa got a lot closer to being raped. I still miss a proper talk between her and the Hound.
  • Yay, another slapping of Joffrey! Ten points to Gryffindor... I mean Tyrion Lannister!
  • I suppose Talisa will be revealed as Jeyne Westerling. Good.
  • Totally new scenes with Dany and the abduction of her dragons. I suppose this will substitute the House of Undying scenes from the book. I can understand they wanted to avoid that since those visions would be very spoilerish, much like they never showed Ned Stark's flashbacks from the Tower of Joy.
  • So now Irri is dead? I really, really hope Doreah will remain alive.
  • Now I think it's safe to say that we will not see any Reed siblings, or Riverrun and the Blackfish (at least not this season). A pity, I was looking forward to Riverrun.

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How did Roose know that Theon had killed Ser Rodrik? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luwin's raven says the following: "Ironmen have taken Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy in command."

This was sent before Theon had killed Rodrik, when Luwin was desperately getting his raven off mid-takeover. Yet Roose knows that he's dead, despite (presumably) only reading the above.

Sup?

Theon thought that Maester Luwin would obey him as Lord of Winterfell. He may not have guarded him and therefore Luwin was able to send more ravens...Or, he may have actually asked him to announce his conquest of Winterfell.

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Forgive my mis-memory as I read the first four books one after another, but doesnt Jamie do SOMETHING in ACOK? Like Anything?

No. The actor has actually noted that the producers have been nice/smart enough to move material from SOS into this season to give him something to do in the upcoming episodes.

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Forgive my mis-memory as I read the first four books one after another, but doesnt Jamie do SOMETHING in ACOK? Like Anything?

Jaime is barely in ACOK (shows up in catelyn's last POV, I believe), but there is a mention of an escape attempt, so we should see that in the show. I remember reading the book-- waiting and waiting for Jaime to show up--and being very disappointed.

On a separate subject, Someone else mentioned it, but I was annoyed that they made Myrcella cry. I loved the part of Tyrion's POV where he thinks that Myrcella Baratheon is a born princess and didn't cry at all (and comforted Tommen) when she went away. I think she'll turn out to be the best and bravest of the Lannisters.

Also, I found myself wondering if TV-Arya would have been better off revealing herself to TV-Tywin. He seems like the type who is sensible. Therefore, he would keep her a hostage, but well protected, for Jaime's sake. Just wondering...

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Yeah, but I always assumed he was just trampled to death or beaten up by a lynch mob. That whole zombie-like ripping scene was beyond cheesy and retarded. A human arm just doesn't get torn off like that, for crying out loud. When the mob started snarling like zombies, I snorted in derision and thought, "what's this, a Romero movie?". When the arm came off I just had to laugh. Idiotic.

I never clocked that until you mentioned it. Not all of us are so observant. And that's the thing. These issues are nitpicks, not grand problems as you make them out to be. I personally loved this episode and only started noticing a lot of the continuity/silly stuff when I came on here. Come on guys, let's calm down.

Speaking of cheesy gore, while I enjoyed Sandor trouncing those would-be rapists (I mean it's hard to NOT enjoy the Hound kicking ass), the guts spilling out was just stupid. Gore like that belongs in a zombie flick, not Game of Thrones. It looked goofy and cartoonish.

If you say so. See above.

Agreed! Thank you. And THANK YOU for pointing out the sheer idiocy of the Jon/Ygritte scene. Oh my fucking god, that was retarded and pointless and nerd-rage inducing. You know, I get that the show needs to cut, to adapt, blah blah blah, budget, constraint, TV format, etc. But nothing, nothing whatsoever justified this change. It was not only longer than it needed to be, it made no sense. The only reason I can think of is to make Jon look like a complete fucktard. Ugh.

This just looks like needless cynicism. I don't really got what your problem is on this one...? It's just a rant about... what? I found the scene quite sweet, the lines showed Jon's vulnerability and self-doubt and their chemistry worked well. I can see their scenes later being really good. And I didn't have a problem with the fact that there was an element of comedy, it doesn't have to be 100% serious all of the time.

Also, the whole "Dany needs something to do" notion needs to die. Dany has 5 chapters in ACoK, so what? We hardly see Jaime either. Or Barristan. We don't see Lysa at all til the end of ASoS. Theon is not at all in A Storm of Swords. They already gutted Bran's storyline, why would they need to add

to Dany's? It will be inevitable that some actors/characters have fewer appearances or screen time for prolonged periods of time due to how the story is written. Or are you people gonna encourage them to invent arbitrary storylines for Theon in Season 3 when we all know that he does nothing except being tortured and broken by Ramsay?

Dany was a popular figure in the first series, and was marketed as one of the main characters in S1. You cannot just throw her away for a season and expect non-book fans to just accept it. It's TV suicide. I personally think the weakest part of the season 2 has been not developing her story even sooner. She was the main character in book 2 that needed her story accelerated for the show to be honest.

And I dread to see what will happen with Robb. There was nothing wrong with him taking an arrow wound, getting feverish and being "nursed" to health by Jeyne. It made sense, and also, Catelyn wasn't around to remind him of his duty. They made that storyline just far less believable already.

Now you're just being pessimistic. There's nout wrong with the scenes they've put in either. Why not trust the writers and see where it goes?

I was really looking forward to the House of the Undying, because I figured it was their opportunity to show flashbacks and visions. But now I'm dreading the whole thing. I have no reason to trust in the writers and I am expecting the whole thing to suck. Hey, that way I won't be disappointed, and if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised...

*Cough*

Don't mean to be a twat, and just nitpick all your nitpicks, but seriously. Dare I say purist? ....

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Some things bothered me in this episode, mainly important changes concerning the characters .Tywin for obvious reasons . Arya being so peaceful and undisturbed by Tywin's side I wonder how non readers are going to understand what she becomes later if this goes on. It seemed to me that it was really important that she doesn't get to have this kind of "comfortable" (when compared to what she goes through) environment during her journey to understand her evolution. Jon being ,again, an annoying idiot and what the hell are they doing to his storyline? I just hope people arguing that they're just giving him time with Ygritte and they'll eventually resume the course of events as we know it are right.

On the other hand, I liked the riot scene even thought I found the gore parts sort of ridiculous (torn arm and entrails ) , the interaction between Arya and Jaqen was funny and I'm perfectly fine with Dany's portrayal thought I'm sceptical about the dragon stealing.

But in fact I'm ready to ignore it all and mark this episode as one of my favorites because of the first scene alone. I just loved every single bit of it, be it Theon, Bran, Ser Rodrick or Master Luwin ,the actors were all perfect. It was so powerful , well-written and greatly acted that for me it makes up for all the rest.

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My thoughts, on what I found to be the best episode of the series so far (like last series, E06 is where everything starts to happen!)

- Sacking of Winterfell. All happened a bit fast, but that's good. Loved hoe Theon took charge, or at least tried. Then had people taking the piss, and it showed that he's basically still a joke. Which is all good. And goodbye Ser Rodrik. Loved his final words, especially 'I'll be seeing your father soon', or whatever that was, brought a little tear to my eye. I like Dagmer as well.

- Osha and the escaping was done well...also, Natalia Tena has the best body on the show...hands down...

- Dany. They've done well creating some interest around what was a boring storyline. It's being well acted by all, very much liking XXD

- Qhorin is awesome, liked his scenes. While Jon and Ygritte is playing out as I'd like, Rose Leslie will be a good addition, though as I love redheads she can do virtually no wrong in my eyes....

- Kings Landing - Loved those scenes. The hound, that BAMF, take a bow my son, take a bow, that was awesome! This is what I've been waiting to see. Sophie Turner did well also, while loved how Tyrion and Joff interacted, especially the massive slap!

- Arya. Liked the interaction with Tywin, Maisie and Charles play off each other very well. Also, more Jaqen is fine by me.

Edit:

How can I forget....RAMSAY IS IN!!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAH

Edited by Chalkius Stark

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Did anyone else hear Talisa say her last name was Maegi (or sounded something very much like that)? What do you think this means for Robb breaking his vows/Red Wedding storyline and the conjecture surrounding that?

I've seen it spelled Maegyr, which is perfectl Valyrian/Volantene sounding, if true.

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As far as the letter Arya takes, this is what I've been able to make out from it

Marching ten thousand west to Lannisport _____

the tooth. Estimate to reach you by week's end. Sco___

Robb Stark moving troops south by coast __ __ will ___

turn east at Silverhill

Now I can't see this as being from either Talisa or Roose, because why would they mention Robb in the middle of the letter? The whole letter would be about what Robb is doing if it were either of them. I think it has to be from some other Lannister force, the remnants of Stafford's host I suppose, who are talking about what they are doing and then what their scouts report Robb is doing. But we're surely supposed to be suspecting Talisa.

I think Arya takes it because she thinks she can use the info to find her way to Robb, not to try to hide it from Tywin.

Irri :( I really liked what they did with Qarth last episode, especially the whole interaction between Dany, Irri, and Doreah, so I'm pissed about Irri being killed. I'll be even more mad if Doreah was part of it and she dies too. I'm okay with the dragons being taken though.

I thought the KL riot scene was well done, except the arm being ripped off which was just silly. Surprised they showed Sansa's almost rape.

I'm not on board with the changes to Jon's story, but have to admit that Ygritte's wiggling made up for it.

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According to ancient astronaut theorists, Littlefinger must be an extraterrestrial who can make Einstein-Rosen bridges to travel Westeros.

At least if LF is travelling, we don't have to see him in the brothel!

I think they are softening Tywin to set up the RW. If non book reading audiences start to think he's not so bad it will be very shocking that he orchestrates a cold blooded murder.

Perhaps Talisa/Jeyne is being forced to participate in this scam like Roslin Frey? If she doesn't know about the assasination plot, she can admit shes a spy, profess her love etc. Robb could marry her to keep her safe so she can run away from home. This way she can be a spy and still fall in love with him. That would be ok with me, but they need some better dialogue. You can get cheesy romance anywhere.

As to the Jon/Ygritte chase scene, sure it was pointless but it took up one minute and doesn't change the story arc. Is it worth all this upset?

Why does Roose saying Ramsay is at the Dreadfort mean he can't be Dagmer? Roose has to tell the truth all of a sudden? Roose could have sent a raven to Ramsay as soon as Theon departs for the Iron Islands and Ramsay could have hurried over there. It requires a bit of a plot stretch to imagine that none of the Ironborn noticed he was a stranger but oh well.

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