Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Ran

[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

Recommended Posts

Hats off to whoever came up with Dagmer=Ramsay.

That's brilliant. It makes perfect sense. Dagmer already seems to take over Reeks function at Theon's side. And it would explain why they didn't cast Ramsay. They actually did, right under our noses. Sneaky bastards.

...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O

She needed to be free. That way she wasn't locked up under guard

So why not do it like in the book, where she says "give me a spear" and kicks a guy in the bollocks and Theon is impressed at her fierceness? Oh that's right, no boobies that way.

Almost every change that has been made is an improvement on the source material and makes for a tighter more interesting show.

What. I just... ah.... I just can't believe there are people like that. Wow. Inconsistent characters, plot holes, gratuitous sex and lazy writing > ASoIaF. Okay...

And Jon chased Ygritte for any of many reasons not the least of which is to prevent her from warning the free folk, and because he was supposed to have killed her.

And how is he going to prevent her from doing that without, y'know, killing her?

Rockroi is completely correct, the scene made no sense and was badly written. It was also very cheesy. I think it's by far the worst part of the episode.

I had to post this on it's own. Why do half of you people even watch the damn show? So you can comlain about every episode? Get over it! IT"S JUST A TV SHOW! Would you rather know everything thats going to happen, scene by scene. Like previously said: Get over it or get a girlfriend.

"Why do you post here? So you can complain about complaints? Get over it! IT'S JUST A MESSAGE BOARD! Get over it and get a girlfriend."

I never clocked that until you mentioned it. Not all of us are so observant. And that's the thing. These issues are nitpicks, not grand problems as you make them out to be. I personally loved this episode and only started noticing a lot of the continuity/silly stuff when I came on here. Come on guys, let's calm down.

Erm, what? You didn't notice the zombie mob, the arm flying off and the guts spilling out? I didn't notice it on a re-watch or anything, I only saw the episode once and I'm not the most acutely observant of watchers. It was right there.

This just looks like needless cynicism. I don't really got what your problem is on this one...? It's just a rant about... what? I found the scene quite sweet, the lines showed Jon's vulnerability and self-doubt and their chemistry worked well. I can see their scenes later being really good. And I didn't have a problem with the fact that there was an element of comedy, it doesn't have to be 100% serious all of the time.

Rockroi already explained why the scene was stupid. Basically, if Jon meant to spare her (and we know he did, he didn't "miss" that sword swing), why was he chasing her? He wasn't going to kill her. He wasn't going to follow her all the way to the wildling camp. He wasn't going to take her back as prisoner to Qhorin, since Qhorin would have killed her. Even if you want to make Jon an indecisive moron (which is a crappy thing to do to the character), the scene still doesn't make sense.

Now you're just being pessimistic. There's nout wrong with the scenes they've put in either. Why not trust the writers and see where it goes?

Why would I trust them when I've found their writing to be lamentable as far as these things are concerned? I'm only pessimistic because they keep making stupid decisions.

Don't mean to be a twat, and just nitpick all your nitpicks, but seriously. Dare I say purist? ....

Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those.

Edited by Morrigan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was the best episode of the season so far for me. So much awesomeness from the very beginning to the end!

The Good:

I freaking squealed out loud at Roose's mention of his bastard at the Dreadfort. YES! Ramsay is coming. Maybe not this season, but he surely is coming...and I can't wait to meet that sick bastard fuck on tv. :devil:

Fucking loved Ygritte. The actress looks great and she really sold herself as Ygritte to me. She's so adorable in her big furs. Ygritte, my girl.. can't blame her for trying. :cool4: She cracked me up with her grinding and Jon's reaction to her was priceless. I adored this couple in the books and so far I'm already loving them on the show.

I'm totally digging Dany's side plot. Its interesting and Emilia would have gone to waste this season if they kept her story by the book, being that she didn't really have a whole lot except the HotU. I wonder if Doreah betrayed her...I'm sad that Irri died because I liked her :frown5: . I like the sassy spice king. I do love Dany, but its good to not have everybody immediately kiss her ass just because she's a Targ, has dragons, etc... I also find Xaro ten times much more interesting and appealing on the show, than in the book. He annoyed the hell out of me in the books.

Theon taking Winterfell was heart-wrenching and conflicting for me. I was so sad for Bran and Rickon and their actors really sold their grief and despair at loosing Ser Rodrik(who went out like a boss). It was conflicting because Theon being a fav of mine, I still hated seeing this happen. He was so stupid, desperate, pathetic, and unnecessarily brutal, yet I can still see the very deep, sad, and human motives for his gigantic and consecutive fuck ups. Also:

Also: Oh, hi Brienne! Tywin and Arya continue to rock. Jaqen continues to be a sexy beast. Sandor saving Sansa... :love:.

The Bad:

Alas, there was no "Brotherfucker!". I really wanted that included, but oh well, at least Joff gets the shit thrown in his face. No shirtless Genry or Jaqen bath scene... :drool:

The Shallow:

Robb is hot and Talisa/Jeyne/whatever is pretty. That's all I gotta say about that.

Jaqen is freaking smoldering!(In case I forgot to say that)

Dagmer has a sexy voice :leaving:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those.

agreed. there are good changes and bad changes. the last few weeks have had some mindboggling decisions. what they've done with robb and jon have kinda robbed their characters of what was good about them.

in the book, robb sacrificed his own honor to uphold that of another, after making a mistake in a moment on understandable weakness. now he's betraying his country because he's infatuated with a fieldhand. awesome.

and oh god was that mob scene poorly done. walking dead bad.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's because they changed the purpose of Jon/Qhorin's mission. In the book they were just scouting, so letting her go wasn't a big deal, now they are going for a sneak assassination, so they can't afford to have anyone give warning, and have Mance be ready for them when they show up at his camp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O

The theory was based on the fact that Dagmer comes up to Theon after the rest of the crew leaves him for the boat and only then introduces himself as first mate, then proceeds to manipulate Theon into completely changing his plans. If Theon calls him first mate when they get on the boat the rest of the crew has no reason to argue the point.

It's far fetched, but less crackpot than many theories. Far more likely Dagmer is just filling the role of Reek.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they getting rid of the whole Khalasar? It looks like everyone was murdered. I can't wait to see the house of the undying go up in flames. Who steals baby dragons from their Mother? "Do not wake the dragon." Blood and fire will follow. And Dany started to sound like Viserys--almost whiny. I love her!

What was the point of Jon chasing Ygritte around? I was was hoping Ghost would appear and tackle her. That would have been fun. At least I was hoping to hear "You know nothing Jon Snow." That would have been the perfect way to end the scene!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are they getting rid of the whole Khalasar?

What was the point of Jon chasing Ygritte around? I was was hoping Ghost would appear and tackle her. That would have been fun.

I was totally thinking the same thing for both of these. Was just waiting for some Ghost on Wildling action.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, last random comment but one thing I thought was a nice touch -- it seemed like the Hound was trying to spare Sansa the worst of the gore. Like, he spun the guys around to slit throats/disembowel, so Sansa wouldn't get sprayed in the face. Awwwwww.

And I loved Tyrion's like when he yelled at Joffrey "You owe him a lot you know!" hahahahaha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

best part of the beheading was theon finishing it by kicking the head off the body

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is it me or do the dragons seem to small to burn down the HotU. Last week they could barely charbroil a piece of meat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is it me or do the dragons seem to small to burn down the HotU. Last week they could barely charbroil a piece of meat

I was thinking that too. They delayed "dracarys", and then Dany hasn't been in Qarth long enough for them to grow. Maybe the three of them together will cross the streams Ghostbusters style. Or Drogon was just holding back because he likes his meat medium rare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is it me or do the dragons seem to small to burn down the HotU. Last week they could barely charbroil a piece of meat

i think part of the the abduction by the warlocks is that their magic will age the dragons a bit, so they are more impressive for their needed roles in the slave cities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was the best episode of the season so far for me. So much awesomeness from the very beginning to the end!

The Good:

I freaking squealed out loud at Roose's mention of his bastard at the Dreadfort. YES! Ramsay is coming. Maybe not this season, but he surely is coming...and I can't wait to meet that sick bastard fuck on tv. :devil:

Fucking loved Ygritte. The actress looks great and she really sold herself as Ygritte to me. She's so adorable in her big furs. Ygritte, my girl.. can't blame her for trying. :cool4: She cracked me up with her grinding and Jon's reaction to her was priceless. I adored this couple in the books and so far I'm already loving them on the show.

I'm totally digging Dany's side plot. Its interesting and Emilia would have gone to waste this season if they kept her story by the book, being that she didn't really have a whole lot except the HotU. I wonder if Doreah betrayed her...I'm sad that Irri died because I liked her :frown5: . I like the sassy spice king. I do love Dany, but its good to not have everybody immediately kiss her ass just because she's a Targ, has dragons, etc... I also find Xaro ten times much more interesting and appealing on the show, than in the book. He annoyed the hell out of me in the books.

Theon taking Winterfell was heart-wrenching and conflicting for me. I was so sad for Bran and Rickon and their actors really sold their grief and despair at loosing Ser Rodrik(who went out like a boss). It was conflicting because Theon being a fav of mine, I still hated seeing this happen. He was so stupid, desperate, pathetic, and unnecessarily brutal, yet I can still see the very deep, sad, and human motives for his gigantic and consecutive fuck ups. Also:

Also: Oh, hi Brienne! Tywin and Arya continue to rock. Jaqen continues to be a sexy beast. Sandor saving Sansa... :love:.

The Bad:

Alas, there was no "Brotherfucker!". I really wanted that included, but oh well, at least Joff gets the shit thrown in his face. No shirtless Genry or Jaqen bath scene... :drool:

The Shallow:

Robb is hot and Talisa/Jeyne/whatever is pretty. That's all I gotta say about that.

Jaqen is freaking smoldering!(In case I forgot to say that)

Dagmer has a sexy voice :leaving:

So instead of Winter is Coming, Ramsay is Coming! That is a hell of a lot scarier than winter...

Yeah, I can't believe they didn't belt out a "Brotherfucker" line either. Cersei was noticably absent once they were all pulled to safety.

I just want to single out Donald Sumpter, who is doing a tremendous job with the role of Maester Luwin and as one poster mentioned, has brought a ton of humanity to the role. Whatever the fate of TV Luwin is, it will be a loss for the show not to see him again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great episode. For those of us who have read the books, keep in mind that we have absolutely no reference point for people who know the story only from the TV show. It's very easy to forget how lost or overwhelmed people can get with a cast this big, a story that hops around so much, and all the things that are left unsaid in dialogue but are present only in the little details.

The HBO folks get those little details right the vast majority of the time. And when they change something, it's almost always for the sake of leaner, more efficient storytelling. That's the reality of a 10-episode season.

Regarding the raging over Roose and Ramsay, the changes are necessary. The audience has to see that Roose Bolton is Robb's bannerman and supporter, otherwise no one will care that some random dude they've never seen before goes and betrays Robb. The writers have managed to kill two birds with one stone — Bolton is established as Robb's bannerman, he's seen with Robb in several scenes, and in the meantime the audience gets to see much, much more of Charles Dance as Tywin Lannister.

My only nitpick is, where the hell is the Greatjon? My guess is it wasn't worth it for the actor or the show's budget to have him just hanging out in the background, but for the sake of consistency it would have been nice to see him this season among Robb's lords.

Finally, Ygritte. Wow. Rose Leslie is gorgeous and I'm happy to see a real redhead, not a brunette with a bad dye-job. She was fantastic in this episode and I hope we see a lot more of her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think part of the the abduction by the warlocks is that their magic will age the dragons a bit, so they are more impressive for their needed roles in the slave cities.

I also though the tower we see at the end is the House of the Undying, or part of it. On TV, it's a lot easier to get that jarring spatial effect if a character walks into a narrow tower and suddenly the inside is a vast room too big for the exterior....rather than using a low building and putting lots of stairs in it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I was expecting more negative reactions, to be honest. Yes, I'm a bit of a book purist (book? what book lol), but I don't mind changes when they are smart and/or well-written. Most of those in this episode really, really weren't. For instance, I enjoyed Tywin and Arya's interactions in the 5th episode. I could list examples of other changes I thought made sense and/or that I enjoyed, but to save time, I'll just nerd-rage about how stupid this episode was overall. I want an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a goddamn fanfiction. *facepalm*

Yeah, but I always assumed he was just trampled to death or beaten up by a lynch mob. That whole zombie-like ripping scene was beyond cheesy and retarded. A human arm just doesn't get torn off like that, for crying out loud. When the mob started snarling like zombies, I snorted in derision and thought, "what's this, a Romero movie?". When the arm came off I just had to laugh. Idiotic.

Speaking of cheesy gore, while I enjoyed Sandor trouncing those would-be rapists (I mean it's hard to NOT enjoy the Hound kicking ass), the guts spilling out was just stupid. Gore like that belongs in a zombie flick, not Game of Thrones. It looked goofy and cartoonish.

Retarded indeed. I feel for that actress, there was no need to cut her. Especially considering there was a dead handmaiden in the series, and her name was Doreah. Instead they kill off the brown girl (in a completely retarded scene to boot) and keep Doreah alive because... because fuck you is why (?).

Yes, that's what we're claiming. Really. Oh wait, no, bugger off.

Agreed! Thank you. And THANK YOU for pointing out the sheer idiocy of the Jon/Ygritte scene. Oh my fucking god, that was retarded and pointless and nerd-rage inducing. You know, I get that the show needs to cut, to adapt, blah blah blah, budget, constraint, TV format, etc. But nothing, nothing whatsoever justified this change. It was not only longer than it needed to be, it made no sense. The only reason I can think of is to make Jon look like a complete fucktard. Ugh.

Another needless add-on: Osha sleeping with Theon. Just more gratuitous nudity again. It wasn't necessary to her plot to spirit the boys out of Winterfell, she could just have waited for Theon to be asleep normally and do all the rest. But, that way there would be no bewbies, derp.

And then there was Dany's dragons being stolen.... what. I mean, seriously, what. Why. Why. Why? Perfect example of change for the sake of change, and don't tell me it's "to give Dany something to do". Dany already had plenty of reasons to visit the House of the Undying, this was just supremely lazy writing to artificially add tension and a cliffhanger to the episode. And so badly done too. They come back to the mansion and all those Dothraki warriors are dead, and yet there isn't a single slain foe in sight. Derp. And where's Doreah? Oh, probably getting naked somewhere, duh.

Also, the whole "Dany needs something to do" notion needs to die. Dany has 5 chapters in ACoK, so what? We hardly see Jaime either. Or Barristan. We don't see Lysa at all til the end of ASoS. Theon is not at all in A Storm of Swords. They already gutted Bran's storyline, why would they need to add to Dany's? It will be inevitable that some actors/characters have fewer appearances or screen time for prolonged periods of time due to how the story is written. Or are you people gonna encourage them to invent arbitrary storylines for Theon in Season 3 when we all know that he does nothing except being tortured and broken by Ramsay?

And I dread to see what will happen with Robb. There was nothing wrong with him taking an arrow wound, getting feverish and being "nursed" to health by Jeyne. It made sense, and also, Catelyn wasn't around to remind him of his duty. They made that storyline just far less believable already.

I was really looking forward to the House of the Undying, because I figured it was their opportunity to show flashbacks and visions. But now I'm dreading the whole thing. I have no reason to trust in the writers and I am expecting the whole thing to suck. Hey, that way I won't be disappointed, and if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised...

IMO it was the weakest of the entire series so far. By far.

Err.... no. *facepalm* He was checking her out because she obviously looked familiar to him and he was probably wondering where he saw her before. Geez. The real problem with this scene, actually, is twofold: one, Littlefinger can apparently teleport. Seriously, he's everyfuckingwhere. He's obviously D&D's favourite character because his screen time is ludicrously high and he's inserted into a bunch of random scenes and places where he never appeared in the books, just because. Enough already. And second, while I enjoy Charles Dance and the Tywin/Arya interactions were entertaining, they were completely out of character. Tywin confiding in his cupbearer is just absurd. And while Arya screaming "now!" at Jaqen and Jaqen's raised eyebrows made for decent humour, the way Ser Amory died was just ridiculous and far-fetched. I wonder if there'll be any follow-up to that, I mean, an important bannerman of Tywin was murdered just like that, I hope there will be consequences at least... but now I'm no longer holding my breath for any weasel soup.

Agreed, with the last sentence at least. But I wish people wouldn't call it the "sack of Winterfell". It wasn't a sack. It was a capture. The sacking/burning comes later, at Ramsay's hand. Also, I thought Winterfell's capture and the riot were by far the least offensive parts of the episode.

Wow, what a great jab. You sure showed him. :rolleyes:

One question to all the comlainers who bitch about every evasion form the novels. why watch? Im relieved that I dont know whats going to happen next and most of the changes they have made still fit and keep it moving. In most cases I think they are imrovements. its an adaptation not a copy. I love the books too, dont get me wrong but the sooner I accepted this as a new telling I started liking it more and more. The best thing about the books is their unpredictability, and the show has it too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just watching this again and thought to myself - how could Dagmar end up being the Bastard?

What if Roose sent him to Pyke when Robb sent Theon back to Pyke? Mayhap Roose has been in Tywin's pocket this whole time and this was one of the "schemes" to help Robb fail since they can't defeat him in battle? Just a thought.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the episode was a masterpiece compared to some of the other episodes, but I am too much a purist to say that I loved it.

Enjoyed the Siege of Winterfell. Really enjoyed the Riot in King's Landing. Hated the Robb and Talisa scene. Was able to stomach the first scene with Tywin and Arya. HATED the scene with the two of them and Littlefinger. Was amused with Jaqen and Lorch. Indifferent to Jon and Qhorin. Liked John, Qhorin, and Ygritte until John decided to not let her go but not kill her. Qarth S-U-C-K-S. LOVED Roose, Robb and Catlyn simply for confirming Ramsay wasn't cut from the show.

Biggest disapointments:

-No Ramsay . . . yet.

-With Rodrik dead who's arm will Ramsay cut off?

-Disapointed with the way Lorch was put down, this guy pulled a crying child out from under her bed and stabbed her to death (along with other atrocities) and instead of being stripped naked and thrown into a pit to be killed by a bear he simply gets a poison dart to the neck.

I guess its because its ASoIaF, and extremely long, intricate, complicated and detailed story that I get so upset when changes are made to it in the adaptation. When a 334 page book is made into a 2 1/2 hour long movie with only some noticeable changes its not so bad. Yeah most of the time the book is probably better but you still get a really good movie out of it (Silence of the Lambs, The Road) but Game of Thrones leaves me with the same feeling that Jurassic Park and The Lovely Bones movies did when compared to the phenomal books that they're based on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×