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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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I really think they will simplify the Reek/Ramsay storyline. Probably just have Bolton sneakily take Winterfell and then do nasty things to Theon and turn him into Reek (without there having been an original Reek or a Reek/Ramsay).

Edited by The Knight of Flours

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the show makes it clear, just ten seconds earlier, that not even many highborn MEN ( and and high-ranking army commanders) know how to read well, how likely is that a peasant can, much less a girl child?

I did not like this episode at all, there were more plotholes than plot.

I did not like Ygritte´s "escape", so pontless and ridiculous, same as Dany´s speech to the spice king. She came across like she was about ready to be signed into a mental institution, so hysterical and over the top.

Sorry still dont buy it. Tywin is not a genius, he's just rich. He leaves a tral of oversights in his wake throughout the books. Well argued though. And I do agree with you on Dany's speech.

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The theory was based on the fact that Dagmer comes up to Theon after the rest of the crew leaves him for the boat and only then introduces himself as first mate, then proceeds to manipulate Theon into completely changing his plans. If Theon calls him first mate when they get on the boat the rest of the crew has no reason to argue the point.

It's far fetched, but less crackpot than many theories. Far more likely Dagmer is just filling the role of Reek.

Another thing I've noticed is that Dagmer Cleffjaw doesn't have a 'Cleft jaw'. So him being a bastard in squid's clothing makes sense to me.

Anyone think they miscast the roles of Asha (Yara) and Ygritte?

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Since Morrigan clearly has my back in this fight, I gotta return the favor to my hommie:

One question to all the comlainers (sic) who bitch about every evasion form the novels. why watch? Im relieved that I dont know whats going to happen next and most of the changes they have made still fit and keep it moving. In most cases I think they are imrovements (sic). its an adaptation not a copy. I love the books too, dont get me wrong but the sooner I accepted this as a new telling I started liking it more and more. The best thing about the books is their unpredictability, and the show has it too.

1. We do not "bitch" about every deviation from the books. I personally loved the scenes that add depth and substance to the characters- most notably in season 1 the scene between Robert and Cersei; I loved the circumvention of the Reeds (not as critical as people think) and I have stated (really until I am blue in the face) just how amazing the Tywin-Arya scenes are. I am amazed at how incredible Maergery has become. even the additions with LF are fine by me. Anything that adds to the universe I enjoy. Also, some changing of the original was done to conserve time- the conflation of the shadow baby/Stannis Shadow;

But it comes with a price: a season of ten hours- no more. For everything that is added, something must be taken away. And I insist that the people who make those choices... chose wisely. And do not mistake me- the vast majority of changes have been for the positive. But that does not excuse the few that have been cringe-worthy (most notably the life-less parlay between Stannis and Renly).

2.I watch because its a great show about a great series I enjoy a great deal. I honestly thought my 6K posts on this message board would have tipped you off to that.

3. When I watch the show, I enjoy it as a "Alternate Universe" of Westeroes/ Game of Thrones. And as an alternate, some changes must be made. Most changes do fit the overall mold of the show. Most changes to not dramatically alter the landscape of the overall story. But you must concede that some changes can still be bad changes, . If a change is poorly done; or is misguided; or slows down the pace of the story; or makes me question what the show is doing, etc, I have every right to criticize. Take the Jon Snow scene where he spares Ygritte then chases her because he ... is going to free her later?... maybe... but may want to bring her back to Halfhand... but Halfhand said he wanted her dead... ANYWAY... if that scene happened in the books, I would have thought it bizarre and poorly done (but because Martin is a proven writer with a dramatic track record, that rarely happens). In other words, the fact that its a change is NOT reason enough to dislike something. However, if its a bad change then pipping that changes can be good cannot justify it, either. A good change would be a good; a bad one bad. And if I take each change and judge each one on its merits (which I believe I do), then I cannot be (fairly) accused of being a "purist" or a "nitpicker." If a scene is a bad scene it matters NOT AT ALL if its straight from the books or if its newly imagined. Its still bad.

That's why I criticized the Jon/Ygritte retelling (and because its a waste of limited time); its why I love other scenes. Not every complaint about a change is nitpicking; not every defense of a change is somehow open-mindedness. Each one must be evaluated on its own merits. And nobody should b complaining about that.

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I refuse to let my passion for the books ruin my love for the show.

I’m not totally cool with everything that is happening on the show, but I wasn’t totally cool with all the choices Martin made in the books.

I know some people are just hard to please and they have a hard time accepting radical changes to something they love, but I urge everybody just to enjoy Game of Thrones for what it is - good television.

As viewers, we are lucky to see something that we love be adapted for television. It’s a privilege to sit down every Sunday and watch this show.

I have a question for those who love to whine about the show. Would you rather have a world with no Game of Thrones or a world with Game of Thrones that isn’t as good as the books they are based on?

I for one choose the former. It’s better than anything else that’s on TV at that time. Take it from me, I’m typing this while “watching” The Killing. There are far worse shows out there.

If you can’t separate the two then I’m not really sure why you are watching the show. Go watch The Killing or find something more entertaining/important to do with your time. Good luck with that by the way.

Also, I’m shocked at how many people disliked Ygritte in the books. I always thought that she was great. And for the one guy that didn’t like Jon Snow in the books, that borderlines on blasphemy.

In the end, the show is a great way to satisfy our appetite until the next book comes out. We are all going to miss this show when it’s gone (which is hopefully years from now.) Enjoy it while you still can.

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I refuse to let my passion for the books ruin my love for the show.

I’m not totally cool with everything that is happening on the show, but I wasn’t totally cool with all the choices Martin made in the books.

I know some people are just hard to please and they have a hard time accepting radical changes to something they love, but I urge everybody just to enjoy Game of Thrones for what it is - good television.

As viewers, we are lucky to see something that we love be adapted for television. It’s a privilege to sit down every Sunday and watch this show.

I have a question for those who love to whine about the show. Would you rather have a world with no Game of Thrones or a world with Game of Thrones that isn’t as good as the books they are based on?

I for one choose the former. It’s better than anything else that’s on TV at that time. Take it from me, I’m typing this while “watching” The Killing. There are far worse shows out there.

If you can’t separate the two then I’m not really sure why you are watching the show. Go watch The Killing or find something more entertaining/important to do with your time. Good luck with that by the way.

Also, I’m shocked at how many people disliked Ygritte in the books. I always thought that she was great. And for the one guy that didn’t like Jon Snow in the books, that borderlines on blasphemy.

In the end, the show is a great way to satisfy our appetite until the next book comes out. We are all going to miss this show when it’s gone (which is hopefully years from now.) Enjoy it while you still can.

Well said.

You bring up an important point, which is that while the TV series is flawed, so are the books. On a forum like this, people are going to be reverential, but the books have some huge missteps and Martin ain't exactly Chekhov.

Didn't Martin himself say in retrospect he would've done some of the things the TV show did? I remember something along the lines of him saying if he could go back and do it all over again, he'd make the Stark kids older, as they are in the show. There were other tweaks he admitted to as well.

But as you noted, we should be grateful the show is on TV, that it's being done by HBO and not by one of the many awful cable networks, that we get an hour each episode without commercials, that the show was renewed because it's been successful, and that if all goes well, we'll be watching the show for years to come.

In other words, be grateful Game of Thrones isn't Rome. And be grateful it's not on AMC, which would squeeze 25 commercials into every hour while skimping on the production budget. We have it pretty good right now.

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Since Morrigan clearly has my back in this fight, I gotta return the favor to my hommie:

lol, thank you ser.

I am quoting the rest just in a "bears repeating/quoted for truth" fashion. I don't think it will do any good nor will it stop the "wah wah you're just purists" "it's an adaptation stop bitching" nonsense, but I'm stubborn like that and hopefully it will get through to some people.

1. We do not "bitch" about every deviation from the books. [...]

But it comes with a price: a season of ten hours- no more. For everything that is added, something must be taken away. And I insist that the people who make those choices... chose wisely. And do not mistake me- the vast majority of changes have been for the positive. But that does not excuse the few that have been cringe-worthy [...]

2.I watch because its a great show about a great series I enjoy a great deal.

That's why I criticized the Jon/Ygritte retelling (and because its a waste of limited time); its why I love other scenes. Not every complaint about a change is nitpicking; not every defense of a change is somehow open-mindedness. Each one must be evaluated on its own merits. And nobody should b complaining about that.

Indeed. Take note, people.

But you must concede that some changes can still be bad changes, . If a change is poorly done; or is misguided; or slows down the pace of the story; or makes me question what the show is doing, etc, I have every right to criticize.

The way I hear read some people talk write, nope; all changes are good, because it's an adaptation. It seems people think they win any argument with this magic phrase. "It's an adaptation", "the book is a different entity than the TV series". Like that trumps any criticism whatsoever. There's no such thing as a bad change. It doesn't matter if the scene is poorly scripted, poorly acted, poorly executed, if it lacks internal consistency, if it's gratuitous, it creates plot holes or a butterfly effect, if the equivalent scene from the book was superior, if you complain, you are a purist who does not understand the concept of an adaptation, because All Changes Are Equal and Good. Sigh.

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Since Morrigan clearly has my back in this fight, I gotta return the favor to my hommie:

1. We do not "bitch" about every deviation from the books. I personally loved the scenes that add depth and substance to the characters- most notably in season 1 the scene between Robert and Cersei; I loved the circumvention of the Reeds (not as critical as people think) and I have stated (really until I am blue in the face) just how amazing the Tywin-Arya scenes are. I am amazed at how incredible Maergery has become. even the additions with LF are fine by me. Anything that adds to the universe I enjoy. Also, some changing of the original was done to conserve time- the conflation of the shadow baby/Stannis Shadow;

But it comes with a price: a season of ten hours- no more. For everything that is added, something must be taken away. And I insist that the people who make those choices... chose wisely. And do not mistake me- the vast majority of changes have been for the positive. But that does not excuse the few that have been cringe-worthy (most notably the life-less parlay between Stannis and Renly).

2.I watch because its a great show about a great series I enjoy a great deal. I honestly thought my 6K posts on this message board would have tipped you off to that.

3. When I watch the show, I enjoy it as a "Alternate Universe" of Westeroes/ Game of Thrones. And as an alternate, some changes must be made. Most changes do fit the overall mold of the show. Most changes to not dramatically alter the landscape of the overall story. But you must concede that some changes can still be bad changes, . If a change is poorly done; or is misguided; or slows down the pace of the story; or makes me question what the show is doing, etc, I have every right to criticize. Take the Jon Snow scene where he spares Ygritte then chases her because he ... is going to free her later?... maybe... but may want to bring her back to Halfhand... but Halfhand said he wanted her dead... ANYWAY... if that scene happened in the books, I would have thought it bizarre and poorly done (but because Martin is a proven writer with a dramatic track record, that rarely happens). In other words, the fact that its a change is NOT reason enough to dislike something. However, if its a bad change then pipping that changes can be good cannot justify it, either. A good change would be a good; a bad one bad. And if I take each change and judge each one on its merits (which I believe I do), then I cannot be (fairly) accused of being a "purist" or a "nitpicker." If a scene is a bad scene it matters NOT AT ALL if its straight from the books or if its newly imagined. Its still bad.

That's why I criticized the Jon/Ygritte retelling (and because its a waste of limited time); its why I love other scenes. Not every complaint about a change is nitpicking; not every defense of a change is somehow open-mindedness. Each one must be evaluated on its own merits. And nobody should b complaining about that.

Valid points.But I think the time to judge TV deviations from the books is at the end of the series.

We have to give them time to play out.For example,the dragon theft has raised a few eyebrows round here.But I'm thinking it adds drama to a drama free passage in Dany's arc,apart from the HOTU chapter itself.

Do you think the episodes improve on re-viewing?

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How do you know? We never witnessed his war councils in ACoK. We never read about him continuously receiving humiliating news from the war. We don't know how he reacted to that.

He already had the friggin' Mountain out there terrorizing the small folk, "Setting the Riverlands on fire, from the God's Eye to the Red Fork"

What more could he have done? Burning Harrenhal down? What for? No one cares about that pile of rocks. Least of all the people living there.

Lord Tywin is described by others. Jamie says his father always lets his men talk first, he listens and afterwards he gives commands.

I doubt lord Tywin would ever surround himself with people he can't rely on.

His reaction towards Amory Lorch ... I have a really hard time believing it since Lorch is one of his birds of prey. And don't forget, in the books, when he leaves Harrenhall, Lorch is left in charge.

The fact is they ruined the character of Tywin Lannister.

They are trying to turn him into a villain.

I did not see him like this in the books. I just saw him as a lord, doing what came natural to those like him.

He sent the Mountain to burn the land because he wanted the river lords to try and defend each village and castle, instead of combining their forces and adding them to Robb's northerners.

And he does care about Harrenhall. Remember his reaction when he finds out Cersei made Janos Slynt lord of Harrenhall.

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Anyone else find Amory Loch's illiteracy somewhat far-fetched? They turned him into Charlie from It's Always Sunny When I was watching that scene I was half expecting someone to yell: "Goddammit Charlie, your illiteracy has screwed us again!"

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Anyone else find Amory Loch's illiteracy somewhat far-fetched? They turned him into Charlie from It's Always Sunny When I was watching that scene I was half expecting someone to yell: "Goddammit Charlie, your illiteracy has screwed us again!"

Agreed! Like I said before, Lord Tywin does not surround himself with idiots.

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This episode was so bad, it was almost painful to watch. David and Dan claim to be huge fans of the series, then why do they want to f-ck it up so bad? So many issues that I hardly know where to begin.

The Winterfell scene, while very different from the books worked for me. It got the job done even if it might have implications for Theon in the future.

We have the scene with the riot in Kings Landing which was decent all in all but still had some bad stuff in it. Why was Myrcella crying when the books make a point about her not doing it, it´s a minor change but why change it at all? And when the crowd ripped the arm of the High Septon, what the hell was that all about, I kept waiting for them to start shouting "BRAAAAAIIINS" and begin eating people. And as much as I love the Hound and the fact that he came to rescue Sansa, the added gore just makes the show feel like a really cheap horror movie.

The scenes from Harrenhall were really, really bad this week. First we have the stupid stuff about the secret message that got sent to the made-up house although it goes against the laws of geography and ravenry. Then we have friendly uncle Tywin who is pretty much father of the year in Westeros. I get that they need to give us a reason why Arya doesn´t have Jaqen off Tywin, but to make him this soft and incompetent goes against everything the book made him out to be. Then we have Littlefinger who teleports around Westeros, showing up in places he never visited. I wouldn´t be surprised if we find him in Mance Rayders tent or at a meeting with Dany the next season. In the books, LF is probably one of the most competent players in the game, in the show he´s stupid with no style or discretion. And the scene where Arya got chased was just breathtakingly bad, I was waiting for a shot of a corridor full of doors where they would run in and out of those doors and we´d hear some silly music in the background like something out of a Scooby Doo episode.

The scenes with Jon Snow were full of stupidity as well. I agree with Rockroi about how strange it is that he chases after Ygritte. What´s also strange is that Jon runs what, 150-200 meters to catch Ygritte and all of a sudden he´s completely lost in the wilderness. And Qhorin mother-effing Halfhand, super ranger, master tracker and expert survivalist can´t find him. When you run in snow, you make tracks, hell, anyone could track Jon Snow and find him. And the whole Ygritte-grinding, what was that all about. They are wearing 20 layers of clothing, he´s not gonna feel shit. My bet is that the producers really wanted another stupid T&A-scene but they figured that it would be too unrealistic if Ygritte stripped in -50 C, however, once they get into a cave or near a fire you can bet that those furs are gonna come off.

From one stupid scene to the next as we join up with the cast of Dawsons Creek, err, I mean Robb Stark, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. Robbs scenes with this Talisa person, the looks, the dialogue, makes my stomach turn. Then all of a sudden Catelyn teleports back in (maybe she borrowed LF´s teleporter?) and Robb simply goes "hay mum, look at this hawt chick I´m drooling over" instead of perhaps saying "So, I heard that Renly Baratheon got killed by a woman while you were in his tent, and who might this enourmous woman in armor be?" And Catelyn is really weak and stupid and simply goes "There there Robby, remember that you gotta marry old Walders ugly granddaughter back at the Twins" instead of doing what any sane person would and think "Damn, look at my boy eyehumping this hot chick, I better make sure to get this girl the f-ck out of here or all kinds of shit is gonna hit the fan".

Dany, damn, I didn´t think it was possible for her character to annoy me more than it does in the books but Emilia Clarke is doing her best to prove me wrong. The girl has got what, 3-5 fighting men and 3 hamster-sized dragons and she´s still going all "Fire and Blood", "Take back what was mine", gawds, go nibble some olives and chill the f-ck down. Then to screw things up a bit more, the showmakers conjure up a dragon-stealing-scene that destroys everything the books tells us about Qarth and it´s people, well done!

But the episode wouldn´t be complete without some T&A so the showrunners picked up the big hat and pulled a name from it. "Who´s gonna do some nudity this week?" - oh look, it´s Osha. What is the point of this scene, to get more boobs on the show, to prove that all men will become utter and complete idiots as soon as there is a woman within 10 meters? And to all you people who seem to get really excited whenever there is a boob on the show, haven´t you ever seen any before? Try a simple google search for "boob", "breast" or "tits" and I´m sure that you´ll find more boobs than you could ever imagine, and maybe if the showrunners did the same, they wouldn´t need to throw more of them into the show.

I´m gonna give this show until the end of this season, if shit doesn´t improve and if they keep f-cking everything up, then I am done. My expectations are so low right now that nothing would surprise me. I´m thankful that Jaime has been invisible this entire season because it would have been painful to watch them screw my favourite character up, although I have full confidence that they will have time for some Brienne/Jaime sex just for the sake of it.

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Agreed! Like I said before, Lord Tywin does not surround himself with idiots.

You can't blame that one on D&D. Martin made Amory Lorch an idiot. I also don't think that Lorch is entirely illiterate as many have been saying; he's simply a poor reader or maybe even just lazy. Tywin will always have a place for useful idiots like Lorch who are willing to do unspeakable things. Even Robb has a place in his retinue for a man that he knows would flay people alive given half a chance.

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Big YES to the taking of Winterfell, Theon's falling further from grace as he messily slaughters poor Ser Rodrik.

YES to parts of the riot, Joffrey's being his usual vicious 'kill-kill-kill' self (he looked so tiny and helpless in the Hound's grip as the big guy pulled him back to safety; it was cute, especially Sandor's looking like he wanted to just leave his charge to the mercies of the crowd), the violence to Sansa was scary but realistic, and Hooray for the Hound's saving her. The crowds should have been larger though; and it felt like the riot took place a hundred ft. away from the doors of the Red Keep, so they could get the royals and servants back to safety quite quickly. Another Joffrey-Slap, Yes! Made my day.

Odd conversation between Sansa and Shae - at least the writers managed to convey Sansa's not hating the crowd, wanting to give them bread if she could. Perhaps she and Shae will end up BFF's after all, and go picnicking with Margaery eventually. :cool4:

I love Tywin and Arya together; but why would Lord Tywin Lannister unburden himself about his son's childhood dyslexia to a serving girl, even a clever serving girl? He's not just a distracted politician, he's Tywin, who is not egalitarian or at all interested in what servants think of him except their knowing to obey him.

Talisa/Robb conversation - Ugh. Hollywood banter, and very awkward banter too. Personally, I think she was writing a letter about the Young Wolf's whereabouts to Lord Tywin. Robb should listen to his mother; and the way Catelyn's mom-radar went off and expressed itself was much better done than the silly Young Love between battles thing. The only good, or at least atmospheric thing about Talisa is that she hasn't taken her clothes off yet to fulfill the HBO nudity requirement in a canon-compliant way.

Speaking of HBO nudity requirements, I was thrilled to see yet another Roz-free episode.

Ygritte is gutsy, pretty, and more fun to watch than Talisa Maegi of Volantis or wherever - probably because GRRM wrote her (an advantage over Talisa, who GRRM did not write) and she hasn't yet started telling Jon he knows nothing.

And Osha snuck the Stark boys and Hodor out of Winterfell, You Go, Girl!

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Lorch is a monster, not an idiot. He may very well be illiterate but, if so, lord Tywin would never give him the task of sending messages.

Come on now. We are talking about Tywin Lannister, a man so diabolical and smart that he manages to take advantage of every little mistake his enemyes make.

I mean, the man even contacted and bought Robb's mother-in-law.

Okay, so maybe he didn't have to try very hard to persuade her to betray Robb, since she was his mother-in-law :D... but still... SMART MOVE! With one message he eliminated Robb's children. With another, he eliminated Robb. And then he sent another message to the Leech Lord and won the north.

To me lord Tywins looks like a man who thinks everything through and whose plans are perfectly done. I don't see him making mistakes. (Taking a northern girl as a cupbearer is something he would have never done. We're talking about the guy who inspired the Rains of Castamere...)

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The best episode of the series so far. I have no real problem with any of the book-to-screen changes, the only disappointment is the King's Landing riot which seemed small scale because of the now-familiar budgetary constraints.

The Ygritte-Jon scenes were fine and there's still space for Jon to release her in the next episode - I fully expect this to happen. I didn't even mind the grinding; it wasn't sexual in any way, Ygritte had just found a way to make Jon very uncomfortable and he didn't know how to deal with it whereas if she had done anything else to try and get to him (spit at him maybe) he would probably have been able to deal with it.

The Winterfell scenes were fantastic, very well done. I loved that Theon could not carry out a clean execution; it marked him out as something other than a Stark. Executions are a big part of the books and Theon's inability to perform a clean execution will find a counterpoint in future series when a "real" stark, Jon, takes Janos Slynt's head.

Rodrik and Bran were great in those scenes, devastating.

I have less of a problem with Lord Tywin having a softer side than most people. I thought Tywin was one-dimensional in the books and in truth, this different side to Tywin (i) isn't really that soft and (ii) is perfectly in-keeping with his character since it is all related to his family. He's proud of helping Jaime to learn to read but it quickly becomes apparent that he did so to ensure that Jaime was not in any way weak like Tywin's father. The two stories of Tywin helping Jaime learn to read and his description of his father's weakness were very much related.

I'll forgive the Arya-Amory Lorch chase as a moment of action. My only hope for that storyline is that we start to hear more about the Ghost of Harrenhal. The small folk would be superstitious and two unexplained deaths would have them whispering. There is a bit of a problem with the poison dart though - Tywin will now know that there's an assassin in the castle...

I don't have much to say on Dany's story other than that I think it should have been cut. It seems largely irrelevant and I wonder if it has been stretched because Emilia Clarke will be one of the few actors that have been contracted for 4-6 years so they need to have her do something.

A couple of stray points:

1. Do we have an idea about the passage of time between episodes? It's hard to get around the Littlefinger Teleportation issue without that. Maybe weeks passed, if so then I suppose it makes sense. But then so little time appears to have passed in Qarth and beyond The Wall between E05 and E06.

2. I'm starting o think Stannis is a problem. This episode really benefited from not having the Stannis storyline inserted anywhere. His arc is feeling pretty weak right now and I think that part of the problem is the lack of any real foreshadowing in series one. In hindsight, I wonder if they regret not at least having Stannis talked of a lot more last series.

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Lorch is a monster, not an idiot. He may very well be illiterate but, if so, lord Tywin would never give him the task of sending messages.

Come on now. We are talking about Tywin Lannister, a man so diabolical and smart that he manages to take advantage of every little mistake his enemyes make.

I'm just going on one of the few things that is said by Tywin of Amory Lorch, specifically, that he didn't have the wits that the gods gave a turnip. To be honest, sending messages isn't the most difficult of jobs; all a person has to do is carry it to the maester and tell him the name of the intended recipient. It's a job for a low-level lackey. That Tywin chose a Lord to be his gopher is actually something of an insult.

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I know some people are just hard to please and they have a hard time accepting radical changes to something they love, but I urge everybody just to enjoy Game of Thrones for what it is - good television.

I thought I was….

I have a question for those who love to whine about the show. Would you rather have a world with no Game of Thrones or a world with Game of Thrones that isn’t as good as the books they are based on?

Are we really doing this? Is this the argument again? The ideas you discuss above are not mutually exclusive. And yet if I do not agree 100% with everything on the show and if I don’t llllllovvvve all the changes made then I should just get down on my little knees and kiss the ground HBO walks on because HBO worked and slaved to bring me this show- why there are children starving in Asia right now who would kill for a meal like this series! What is wrong with me?!

See, just so you are aware, HBO is in the entertainment business, and you may not know this but entertainment and the craft of TV production are, well, subjective. So, here in Western Civilization what we do is we have what is called “criticism” and it’s part of honest and pleasant discourse where people of even temperament and differing minds can debate certain points. In other words, we are doing EXACTLY what we are all supposed to be doing. IT’S A TV SHOW! I paid my money to watch it (every week) and if its good I sing its praises; if its bad I criticize. Its been going on in the Western Hemisphere for 2500 years.

If you can’t separate the two then I’m not really sure why you are watching the show. Go watch The Killing or find something more entertaining/important to do with your time. Good luck with that by the way.

Nah, that didn’t sound condescending at all!

And for the one guy that didn’t like Jon Snow in the books, that borderlines on blasphemy.

I have no idea what that means; Martin’s a man, not the Lord Our God. There is no such thing as Blasphemy. I can’t believe I had to write that. (and if you think its only "one" guy who doesn't like Jon Snow...)

You bring up an important point, which is that while the TV series is flawed, so are the books. On a forum like this, people are going to be reverential, but the books have some huge missteps and Martin ain't exactly Chekhov.

Yeah, hey, you may have noticed but your comments are surrounded by this thing called an “Internet Forum” where people- like, hey, look, ME -criticize the books! And I love the books. So, in other words the same passion and criticism we had for the books … we have for the series… hmmm… so, what that says is we … we treat the two … the same… wow… how… how novel…

Valid points. But I think the time to judge TV deviations from the books is at the end of the series.

By that same logic, all changes would not be criticized nor praised, until the series was completed. So, people would also be stopped from saying “I liked that” because, well, the series has not ended yet….

See, I don’t understand why all changes are good? Or why they should be treated with reverence? See, I disliked the Jon/Ygritte scene not because it was a change but because it was not well thought out and not very smart (or at least I am very much afraid of those things). That’s not blasphemy”; that’s “being able to see and think critically.” I don’t understand why I cannot treat AGoT like I do Mad Men or other very good TV shows- with honesty and respect and not blind devotion.

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