[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

[boojam]

Well seems Irri is dead.

That more of a surprise to me than Ned.

Well it's not in the books.

Article here:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1684631/game-of-thrones-recap-old-gods-and-the-new-death-amrita-acharia.jhtml

I guess does not make much difference she sort of picks up a 'scribe-handmaiden' of sorts later.

This one does not have a butterfly effect, but it's one of those continuity breaks from the books that seemed kind of uncalled for.

[legba11]

Nerd-Rage represents 11.7% of the forum traffic on the internetz, second only to fake statistics. It makes for some fun reading.

Tywin does NOT know who Arya is, she is still given free reign of Harrenhal. He knows she is highborn, and likely did from the moment she spoke to him. LF clearly does, it is clear the moment he realizes it, and then he spends the next few seconds weeding out the information that Tywin does not know it. Why do you think he forced in that Catelyn's daughters comment that closed the scene?

Also Tywin is a villain, no question. He is THE villain for CoK and SoS. In the show, Joffery has taken some of that role from him. However, that doesn't mean he is jerk to every person around him. He likes Arya for whatever reason, she is smart, she has courage and she is a survivor. These are all qualities he admires (and often feels his own children lack in one form or another). He is clearly someone who does not like the company of his commanders, and it is very reasonable to take to this meaningless little girl who is around him now. In any work with a shred of depth, the villains don't walk around kicking kittens every where they go. It amazes me how black and white some people see the world. (of fiction)

Dagmer = Ramsey might be the most far-fetched theories these boards have created. And that is saying something. There more evidence that Craster is actually Aegon in disguise.

[Storm of Words]

I love when people say Tywin was not a villain in the books.

Tywin :

-the guy who forced his 13 y/o son to watch his wife getting gang-raped and then forced him to participate

-the guy who employs people such as the Mountain, Amory Lorch, the Bloody mummers and sets them loose on innocent smallfolk

-the guy who wiped out an entire house just because they dissed him...

-need I go on ?

Really, not a villain.

When I read the books I found Tywin really vicious too. I found it very plausible that Tyrion killed him after how he was treated by his father and the rest of the family.

The Series-Tywin is not how I imagined him from reading. Well they really seem to put all Lannister-Evil-Stuff on Joffrey. I really hope they won't continue to make Cersei and Tywin that more likeable all the time. Cersei must go batshit crazy! ;-)

[PrinceRhaegar]

Well seems Irri is dead.

That more of a surprise to me than Ned.

Well it's not in the books.

Article here:

http://www.mtv.com/n...a-acharia.jhtml

I guess does not make much difference she sort of picks up a 'scribe-handmaiden' of sorts later.

This one does not have a butterfly effect, but it's one of those continuity breaks from the books that seemed kind of uncalled for.

Thanks for posting that, I thought she isnt that coz she wasn't buchered. I am sad to see her go, I hope that her death will be meaningful, not random like Doreah in the book.

[Targaryen Kaiser]

This episode was good; definitely not as bad as some people think it is.

Harrenhal: I don't get the whole ruckus with a peasant being able to read. It isn't that unbeliavable, I'm pretty sure that in medieval ages many servants learn reading (which is easier to learn than writing) from their lords, merchant bosses etc. How would Tywin suddenly realise the girl is a highborn and actually Arya? She is supposed to be VIP prisoner heavily guarded at King's Landing. Her escape would have been a major incident, one that he would have been informed for. Cercei is the reason Tywin does not realize the girl is Arya, not D&D.

King's Landing: Loved the whole riot scene. Peter Drinklage nailed it again but no one mentioned how great Jack Gleeson portrayed a mad Joffrey's emotion full of rage and humiliation with that psychotic face. The Hound rules.

Beyond the Wall: I really liked Ygritte. She is even better than how I have pictured her on my mind when I was still reading ACoK. The "hunt" scene, where Jon catches her, and they have to spend a night together foreshadows the bond they are going to have later in a very good manner. In the next episode, I assume that Jon will see Qhuorin closing by and he will let her leave. Finally, Jon's story is getting interesting.

Winterfell: I don't know if the directors wanted to surprise the viewers but I think that the whole capture of the castle was a bit sudden. I liked Alfi's acting, he portrayed Theon perfectly, especially in sir Rodric's execution. Good to see Summer and Shaggy dog and Asha is hot as hell. :P

Rest: Capturing the dragons save the producers from having Drogon in Dany's side while she is walking inside THotU. Yeah, I'm on the optimistic side and I still believe we will see her having the visions in there. Finally, I hope that Jeyne's name is indeed Jayne and not Talissa.

One issue I have is that the writers are using modern phrases too often. When someone says, "he disrespected me", or Tywin says, "give us the room", it jars me out of the story.

And there are dragons too. There weren't dragons in the Medieval age :P

[TheRiderThatMounts]

And if "ruining" Tywin means having him make Arya his cupbearer in the show, I really wish they'll start "ruining" more characters. The new dynamic and banter between Tywin and Arya has been one of the best parts of the whole series, and it's not even from the books. And the way Tywin talked about Jamie and his father to Arya gave us wonderful insight to him and his relationship to Jamie.

Yes, cause lord Tywin Lannister always enjoys a good chat with his sevants. That's totally him!

[Evamitchelle]

Well seems Irri is dead.

That more of a surprise to me than Ned.

Well it's not in the books.

Article here:

http://www.mtv.com/n...a-acharia.jhtml

I guess does not make much difference she sort of picks up a 'scribe-handmaiden' of sorts later.

This one does not have a butterfly effect, but it's one of those continuity breaks from the books that seemed kind of uncalled for.

Well I am disappoint. I don't see why they had to kill Irri to introduce a new character. I thought Amrita Acharia did a great job in season 1. And now her death wasn't even the focus of the scene because Daenerys only seemed concerned about her dragons.

If they don't get rid of Doreah (Roxanne McKee) too I'm going to be side-eyeing them quite a lot though. Doreah died in Clash, Jhiqui and Irri were still present in Dance. But now Irri is dead and Jhiqui is a no-show. The pretty white girl survives beyond her original storyline while the two brown girls get an early disappearance ? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though. I'll wait and see what they do next.

[Thunderfist]

Well I am disappoint. I don't see why they had to kill Irri to introduce a new character. I thought Amrita Acharia did a great job in season 1. And now her death wasn't even the focus of the scene because Daenerys only seemed concerned about her dragons.

If they don't get rid of Doreah (Roxanne McKee) too I'm going to be side-eyeing them quite a lot though. Doreah died in Clash, Jhiqui and Irri were still present in Dance. But now Irri is dead and Jhiqui is a no-show. The pretty white girl survives beyond her original storyline while the two brown girls get an early disappearance ? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though. I'll wait and see what they do next.

I don´t know if there´s a racial aspect to the decision, I´m more inclined to believe that Doreah was the only one who agreed to do nude-scenes

And I really agree with you about the actress doing a great job, I especially liked the scene where she yells at Jorah and Rakharo

Edited May 8, 2012 by Thunderfist

[Dragon greyscale]

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense)

Okay, seriously, why is he chasing her?

(and one final note: I think this may be one gigantic circumnavigation around Jon's orders to betray the Watch and stay with the wildings and make it so Half-hand actually THINKS Jon has gone over to the wildings. This may end up with Jon REALLY fighting Halfhand and REALLY being taken in by the wildings. If that is the case... then I think ... then I think it goes from being "Nitpicking" to "Oh, this is just bad.")

Well, Jon and Ygritte will become an item. That's the main thing to keep in mind. All the objections you have are valid to some extent, but I think the main reasoning of D&D is to give them some time together. Just the two of them. That's how viewers can begin to understand their developing romantic relationship. It may be cheesy and contrived but I understand it from a storytelling perspective.

Btw, your remark in parentheses is very speculative and an example of how GoT is held up to impossible standards. Let it play out before you start to judge it based on unwarranted assumptions. I'm pretty sure Jon will still become a reluctant spy (which he also is in the books. Remember, he's the one letting wildlings past the wall to the dismay of te rest ofthe watch)

[boojam]

Well I am disappoint. I don't see why they had to kill Irri to introduce a new character. I thought Amrita Acharia did a great job in season 1. And now her death wasn't even the focus of the scene because Daenerys only seemed concerned about her dragons.

If they don't get rid of Doreah (Roxanne McKee) too I'm going to be side-eyeing them quite a lot though. Doreah died in Clash, Jhiqui and Irri were still present in Dance. But now Irri is dead and Jhiqui is a no-show. The pretty white girl survives beyond her original storyline while the two brown girls get an early disappearance ? I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though. I'll wait and see what they do next.

D&D have played games with all the hand maidens , as I remember Jhiqui did appear one episode, season one, then disappeared, or I think they say combined with Doreah? Now Irri , payroll getting that tight?

Yeah Doreah was supposed to die in the Red Wastes, well that was Rakharo , but that was because Elyes Gabel got a better contract deal, I heard. Have not heard that about Amrita Acharia.

Just a side note, supposedly some or few Khalasar warriors were killed in that scene? Or was it just one, I though in a place like Qarth that could not happen? Anyway she had so few seems a shame to lose any.

Edited May 8, 2012 by boojam

[Lightning Lord]

Tywin knows Arya is highborn, but doesn't know she's Stark. Arya's been very poor at playing lowborn scum in the show. There's no way a stonemason's daughter knows how to read at her age, especially not script that illuminated manuscripts would have on them. There's also no way that a stonemason brings his daughter south with him en route to war. I still think Williams is nailing the role, I think she's playing it just the way it should be played.

Joffrey was, again, a tremendous piece of feces.

Sansa in the book was learning by this time. Sansa in the show is still in Fairy Tale Land.

Jon doesn't know how to tie someone up. Ygritte still had a lot of freedom of movement for her hands. If they wake up like nothing happened, I'll be a bit disappointed. Maybe he wouldn't be able to fall fully asleep, but she's a warrior and has loose ropes already around her hands, with plenty of slack to wrap around his neck or to grab a weapon.

Rodrick was perfect...right to the bitter end. And Theon was exactly how I pictured him - unsure and cocky, wrapped in petulance and dreams of glory.

Changes are okay of course, and I'm not trying to complain, but I missed the part of the scene where Cersei actually takes Tyrion's side in the keep, after they get out of the riot.

Is Dany starting to realize that she's the Beggar Queen, to her brother's Beggar King? Is it possible they're setting up to keep her away from the Slave Cities boondoggle?

[Ser Gabriel]

I loved this episode. The scene with Arya telling Jagen to kill Amory Lorch was pure gold, especially with how he went on with it. :D

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that Jon Snow (in the tv show) should not be given a sword ever again? The way he was "sharpening" Longclaw back at Craster's Keep made me cringe. And now hitting it to rock and flailing around with it while running... I know valyrian steel can take a lot, but damn, please have some mercy. :crying:

[Lightning Lord]

By the way, am I the only one who thinks that Jon Snow (in the tv show) should not be given a sword ever again? The way he was "sharpening" Longclaw back at Craster's Keep made me cringe. And now hitting it to rock and flailing around with it while running... I know valyrian steel can take a lot, but damn, please have some mercy. :crying:

I was thinking the same thing. He hacked the rock and I found myself thinking "That's okay, it's Power-wrought, so it doesn't need shar...wait, wrong series. Wtf are you doing Jon, you're ruining your blade!"

[Drogon's Personal Trainer]

By the way, what was on that sheet of paper Arya took from Tywin's table?

Was it a letter directed from Littlefinger to Arya or something? I mean, Arya was pretty determined to take it.

I am sure the letter Talisa/Jeyne was writing and the letter on Tywin's table are linked. She is the spy in the camp and is communicating with Tywin. Seemed quite obvious to me. Don't know what anyone else thought?

[Lightning Lord]

I am sure the letter Talisa/Jeyne was writing and the letter on Tywin's table are linked. She is the spy in the camp and is communicating with Tywin. Seemed quite obvious to me. Don't know what anyone else thought?

I don't think Arya grabbed a real piece of correspondence. Tywin knows she can read, knows she's northern, and knows she's highborn. He wouldn't leave actual messages of import lying around in front of her, even if she claims her imaginary father died of loyalty and that all men can die.

[khaleesiStormborn]

Absolutely loved loved loved this episode!!! I watched it 3 times in a row, and I think the changes they make are OK, it keeps me not knowing exactly what is going to happen next and they always seem to bounce right back to the book after a little change so thats ok by me.

My favorite part was the look that Jaquen gives Arya after she says NOw, IT Has To be Now! He just looks at her like an annoying little sister but u knw that he will listen to her and get it done!!!

Like so many others have said, the Sansa and Shae friendship is not sitting well with me. In the books Sansa NEVER trusted a hansmaid, so how does she knw that Shae is not one of the wrong people.

Tyrion and the Hound were GREAT! As was all the KIngs Landing scenes.

But the best part was of course Winterfell. And I do feel more sorry for Theon than in the books. And Rodricks last line about Theon now being truly lost was epic!!! Oh and the guy playing Dagmer has an awesome scary voice. Cant wait till next week, but i hate how this series seasons are only 10 episodes long :(

[Evamitchelle]

I don´t know if there´s a racial aspect to the decision, I´m more inclined to believe that Doreah was the only one who agreed to do nude-scenes

And I really agree with you about the actress doing a great job, I especially liked the scene where she yells at Jorah and Rakharo

That's a possible reason, though I'm not sure how essential it would have been to see Irri naked. But I'm actually surprised at how nude-free Dany's been this season. During the first one she spent a lot of time naked or in semi-transparent dresses and she's remained completely clothed so far this season while she spent the whole book with one breast out (HBO actually *removing* unnecessary nudity shock of shocks). In any case I don't actually think they consciously decided to get rid of all POC - ETA : People Of Colour (Xaro is now black after all), but it's still an unfortunate decision if they do keep Doreah while writing off Irri and Jhiqui.

That scene was especially impressive since she was speaking in a made-up language. And since she's actually Norwegian there's even a chance that she was actually acting in 2 languages that weren't her first. If so double kudos.

D&D have played games with all the hand maidens , as I remember Jhiqui did appear one episode, season one, then disappeared, or I think they say combined with Doreah? Now Irri , payroll getting that tight?

Yeah Doreah was supposed to die in the Red Wastes, well that was Rakharo , but that was because Elyes Gabel got a better contract deal, I heard. Have not heard that about Amrita Acharia.

Just a side note, supposedly some or few Khalasar warriors were killed in that scene? Or was it just one, I though in a place like Qarth that could not happen? Anyway she had so few seems a shame to lose any.

I think it'd be weird if they've combined Jhiqui and Doreah considering that they shared one scene.

I'm just sad that they're voluntarily getting rid of Amrita (unlike Elyes who just found a better role). Dany's chapters are pretty void of any well-developed side-charaters in the books after AGoT (only Jorah and later Barristan, but Jorah left in Storm and Barristan's role until Dance is basically to be an info-dump on the Targs and the Rebellion), and I felt the show had managed to improve a lot on that front. But now all that is pretty much wasted because all those good secondary characters are dead (Viserys, Drogo, MMD, Rakharo, Irri). At least it seems like they want to give Rakharo's replacement (Kovarro ?) the same attention.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Evamitchelle

[HouseLark]

I don't think Arya grabbed a real piece of correspondence. Tywin knows she can read, knows she's northern, and knows she's highborn. He wouldn't leave actual messages of import lying around in front of her, even if she claims her imaginary father died of loyalty and that all men can die.

The letters may be linked but I can't believe that Talisa was writing her spy reports in plain sight as some have suggested. She was sat in the middle of the camp and making no effort to be secretive. Any nosey parker peering over her shoulder might spot a word or phrase that gave the game away.

I think reading, writing and messages were just one (I'm bundling them here) of the motifs used in this episode so you see examples all over.

I was much more intrigued by the suprisingly high quality of the paper/vellum that everyone had access to.

[boojam]

Who are the new Dothraki warrior?

Or is he new?

In The Ghost of Harrenhal we see two guys , now one of them a bloodrider, I think, arguing on how to steal a golden peacock. Jorah calls them both by name, and then Dany's tells em how to be guests.

Then the guy shows up , very briefly, in The Old Gods and the New running across the courtyard. He has kind of trimmed beard.

[Thunderfist]

Who are the new Dothraki warrior?

Or is he new?

In The Ghost of Harrenhal we see two guys , now one of them a bloodrider, I think, arguing on how to steal a golden peacock. Jorah calls them both by name, and then Dany's tells em how to be guests.

Then the guy shows up , very briefly, in The Old Gods and the New running across the courtyard. He has kind of trimmed beard.

The young guy is Kovarro, one of Danys bloodriders, they changed his name for some reason. The old guy is probably some random extra