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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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I actually think they are handling Baelish quite cleverly. When you stop to think about it, only we the viewers get to see 'more' of him, because we see him interract with so many different people. And yes, I know he has been given some additional scenes, but that only adds to his mystery.

To the various characters in the TV series, he only shows the face he wants them to see of him. But as viewers see, he has many faces depending on who he is with. I rather enjoy this aspect, because when viewers see him playing up to so many people and helping them plot against each other, we start to wonder which is the 'real' Baelish, if indeed we have yet seen anything of that person. What IS he up to? You certainly can't determine that from the series so far. He seems more obvious in the TV series because we are seeing him objectively, and not through the eyes of others in their book POVs.

I'm starting to agree with this viewpoints. I've read through a couple of non-reader threads and they basically see Baelish the way we see him in the book. He seems very popular among the non-book readers from what I can tell. Also agree with the point that its much easier for MArtin to have people comment on how devious Littlefinger is through their monologue than to do that on the show. Plus it would be a little more shocking/realistic if he didn't seem to be the little miss perfect schemer he was in the book.

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I don't know why people are picking on Littlefinger ending up at Harrenhal. He left the Tyrell camp within a day of Catelyn, and Catelyn reaches Robb in the westerlands this episode, an even further distance. The show has decided to not bother at all with trying to make sense of travel or suggest the passage of time.

Also, Littlefinger's conversation with Tywin sets up the Tyrell's arrival at the end of the Battle of the Blackwater. Without that scene or something like it, that would come completely out of the blue.

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I'm definitely on the "one-of-the-best-episodes-so-far" camp.

The sack of Winterfell was really heartbreaking. The contrast of Bran's reactions at the begining when Theon enters his room and during the beheading of Ser Rodrick was a nice touch. The kid is doing a fine acting job. And Theon - there was definitely an "Anakyn Skywalker"-moment there. The expression on his face after he kicks off the head from the body says clearly "There is no turning back". I've actually never liked Theon, but love the drama of his character.

Btw, am I the only one who is wondering where Summer is, when Theon comes into Bran's room? They didn't exclusively emphasized in the show that the wolves are held captive in the God's wood, did they?

Those wide shots in the second season of the show are really great. Love the scenes north of the Wall. Love to see Ghost again. Qhorin was not exactly how I imagined him and I have a problem with the fact, that Jon was the one who wanted to join Qhorin's group in the show. IIRC Qhorin took the initiative in the books. But I could live with that. Hopefully they will go somewhere with those changes. I can't understand all the complaining about the Jon/Ygritte - scenes. Yes, there are some changes, but I am still positive and prefer to wait and see the purpose of all this. I got from the scene that Jon was hesitating to kill Ygritte (as in the books). I think it was a last-minute decision to cut the rock instead of Ygritte's head, when he realized he cannot kill a woman. But then he panicked and started chasing her without thinking. It was just some rush panicking-reaction imo. I still wonder about the purpose of this change - perhaps it is a setup for the Jon-Ygritte relationship. I just hope they won't change Jon's character in some drastic way. I'm ok with the Jon-scenes so far. The actress playing Ygritte is great and the chemistry between them works so far. I am still convinced that Jon won't go straight to the wildlings-camp without having killed Qhorin.

The Arya/Tywin scenes are superb. Those two could really have a show on their own and no one would complain abot that. I am not a Lannister fan (except for Tyrion and a bit of Jaime) so even if Tywin is represented more humanly in the show, I don't like him. Charles Dance is doing a great job though. Don't mind the dialog between him and Arya, don't mind even the hiding game with LF. My only complaint is that we see too much LF and not enough Varys. Want more Varys! Stealing the letter gave Arya a good reason to choose the second death. It was more plausible for the non-book readers that way imo.

The riot scene in KL was very intense. I don't mind the lack of hourses. The anger of the crowd, the panick of the nobles - I just bought it. My only complaint was that Joff got slapped only once.

Dany's scenes were at least interesting for me as always. I enjoyed how condescendig the spice merchant was. And the whole "I will burn this and that... " is really starting to go on my nerves. The stealing of the dragons didn't wake any emotions. We all know she is going to have her dragons back at the House of Undying. I still have some hope for the prophesies left.

Robb, oh Robb, you trully are a King! I hate that the show made Robb such a lovable character. I liked him in the books, but the second season showed him in a really good light. Now I like him even more in the show. I have no doubts that Jane is the beautiful nurse. Still not sure what the purpose of the whole hiding of her personality is. I gues we'll have to wait and see.

Imho this episode was really dynamic, dramatic, showed some very important moments and despite all the changes from the series, it was really great.

Edited by Lyana

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The scene where Theon executed Ser Rodrik was one of the strongest in the episode but I'm worried about the repercussions it might cause. Now ramsay cannot kill him and the rest the men returning from Torrhens Square as he did in the book so when he comes to "liberate" Winterfell he can hardly be seen as the SOB that he is. GRRM said in an interview that he doesn't consider any of his characters wholly evil but Ramsay is as close it gets. I want his portrayal in the show to match this.

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The scene where Theon executed Ser Rodrik was one of the strongest in the episode but I'm worried about the repercussions it might cause. Now ramsay cannot kill him and the rest the men returning from Torrhens Square as he did in the book so when he comes to "liberate" Winterfell he can hardly be seen as the SOB that he is. GRRM said in an interview that he doesn't consider any of his characters wholly evil but Ramsay is as close it gets. I want his portrayal in the show to match this.

Ramsay killing Luwin would be awesome, IMO.

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This is a tv series that only gets to follow specific POV's.... one of the biggest issues is that the book goes on about 50,000 different plot tangents which is why now by book 5 we are basically seeing no progress. It is pretty hard to make significant progress with so many plot arcs... The whole point of the TV show being different is they are giving more time and more storyline to main arcs because it is blatantly less time/material to work with. People say its 10 different 1 hour episodes but this isnt even true at all. The show starts at 9pm they say but the show actually doesnt even begin til like 9:04 then the opening sequence is a few minutes in itself, then the show winds up ending at like 9:51. Each episode is actually more like 50 minutes. We want this show to last so it has to appeal to all demographics and have different entertainment values like comedy, violence, sex appeal and drama to survive the prime time world.

People condemn the 2nd most wealthy guy in Quaith for being so over the top and strange but thats what they were like in similar times (think of the guy in Gladiator that announced the games for the Gladiator arena all fancy in his wig and makeup). People condemn Robb for how he acted with Tylisa/Jeyne saying for him to be a kid since its his first love... Robb is the 'king' so he acted like a kid trying to be a king flirting with a girl with false arrogance. And they did age him up so it isnt like he is the same child in the books...

As for this season seeming rushed.. in a lot of ways I agree it is but I blame HBO for not giving the season enough time to handle depicting so many different arcs. We dont get 10 hours we get more like 9 when all is said and done with credits, stupid show previews and late starts so there is no way for us to get the elaborate show we all want... Which is why its perfectly fine that apparently Littlefinger has access to secret railroads to travel around because if we based his travel on a somewhat realistic timeline itd wind up taking him 7 episodes to go from one place to the next.

And my one main negative I must say... is that some people are so happy they saw the direwolves... Idk about you but I agree with the few who have mentioned the lack of wolf action this season. I feel like the most we have gotten so far is the equivalent of the wolves hopping on screen, waving to us then scampering off to who knows where. The amount we see them isnt even enough to be considered cameos. Ghost hasnt looked like the vicious and intuitive wolf I see in the books hes some wandering wolf that pops in to say hi then disappears to have no involvement in the storyline whatsoever.

If this show had more legitimate time to display the storylines I think it would be phenomenally better to everybody, there is no reason to just get 10 short episodes. There is WAY too much story to be told and the lack of time to show it is the sole reason for all of the complaints we see about timewarping Littlefinger and all rushed storytelling. That and the fact that some people just love nitpicking about SOMETHING because lets be honest one of the best things about a show is the ability to criticize because a show thrives on positive AND negative critique.... what we should worry about is if nobody says ANYTHING. Love and hate implies the show is on our minds.... ignorance and silence implies this show is doomed... So it is safe to say we are all safe for the next season... Hopefully HBO decides to start the show on time.. stop showing so many previews during our dedicated GOT timeslot... and give us some more damn episodes to tell the overwhelmingly elaborate story with some justice!!

And on a side note I did actually laugh when Lorch got sniped like that, as random as the method was. Theres nothing wrong with a little laughter people..

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I don't get why they went for a 10 episode format. The show would've benefited immensely from a 12 episode format.

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It may be that Arya uses her 3rd kill to escape rather than killing the guard herself.

Jesus fucking christ I hope not. That would be the single worst change in the entire series so far and it would be so bad that I just might give up on the series if they do that. Arya needs to kill that guard, by herself, using her wits (dropping the coin) and saying "valar morghulis". Since that's the title of the final episode I'm hoping that this scene will be intact, at least.

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"...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O"

Agreed... that is not an arc that needs to have a character like Dag replace Ramsay, or have their roles merged into some synergistic new character plotline.

What. I just... ah.... I just can't believe there are people like that. Wow. Inconsistent characters, plot holes, gratuitous sex and lazy writing > ASoIaF. Okay...

I disagree that the storyline on the show is surpassing GRRM's story, but this is TV not the books. We dont have thousands upon thousands of pages to have a story depict every single facet of ASOIAF. We have minutes/hours to try and show some sort of semblance to the story GRRM told. Inconsistent characters are only because on screen certain things must be changed to carry the story. Plot holes are inevitable because there is just no realistic way to follow the true story in such a small amount of time. Gratuitous sex is fine with me. Lazy writing I disagree with, its more just bad writing on some fronts. They tried to do something and failed.

"Why do you post here? So you can complain about complaints? Get over it! IT'S JUST A MESSAGE BOARD! Get over it and get a girlfriend."

Theres a difference between critique in a respectful manner and nitpicking in a disputatious manner. Compare the difference between Tywin diligently explaining his beliefs and Dany on her childish Targ rant whining and stomping all the way. There are ways of getting a point across without being so combative. But I dont hate for that. Fact is that its the love of the story that causes us to be combative. Sometimes its hard to see that from the outside. We are so tied to the story that we just get defensive. Bottom line is we need the aggressive angry rants as much as the calm & respectful synopsis of each episode. I, myself, channel all that rage towards GRRM saying our next book will be at least 2-3 yrs away, wtf man.

Erm, what? You didn't notice the zombie mob, the arm flying off and the guts spilling out? I didn't notice it on a re-watch or anything, I only saw the episode once and I'm not the most acutely observant of watchers. It was right there.

The arm flying was.. interesting... it did seem more like they chewed thru the guy instead of tearing him apart. That really didnt bother me it just made it more evident how vicious the murder was, but I guess they felt the need to exaggerate the severity.

Rockroi already explained why the scene was stupid. Basically, if Jon meant to spare her (and we know he did, he didn't "miss" that sword swing), why was he chasing her? He wasn't going to kill her. He wasn't going to follow her all the way to the wildling camp. He wasn't going to take her back as prisoner to Qhorin, since Qhorin would have killed her. Even if you want to make Jon an indecisive moron (which is a crappy thing to do to the character), the scene still doesn't make sense.

Is it really that crappy? Given his eventual end-result as head of the NW I think it really enhances how controversial his being the head of the NW was. He did some stupid ish, people didnt exactly consider him the epitome of a leader. And he missed her thinking okay heres my moment for a love connection to discuss what to do from here and she split. I think the books version of the events worked better personally, but for what they chose to do it isnt that surprising. He spared her and she ran away so he wanted to chase her so that his act of 'indiscretion and mercy' didnt come back to haunt him.

Why would I trust them when I've found their writing to be lamentable as far as these things are concerned? I'm only pessimistic because they keep making stupid decisions.

I just think the problem is saying hey take a 100 hour story and tell it in 9 hours. Things need to be changed to make it work on-screen. People always use LOTR as a reference to this book and show. LOTR was ridiculously successful as a movie trilogy and there were so many changes to the story to fit the timeline and carry a certain time progression standard and atmosphere to the depiction. If LOTR stayed true to the storyline of the books I sincerely doubt the success wouldve been as great. The writing isnt lamentable.. the decisions arent stupid... we have unlimited time on here to critique and say how things should be but with a time restraint the writers do not have this luxury while trying to build a world for us to attach ourselves to... coming attractions for the wonderful (sarcsasm) episode of Veep that is an hour away take away from much needed time that could be used to tell the story... It would be nice as well to have the show start on time those extra minutes would surely benefit the writers..

Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those.

Ironic the mention of bastardizing with reference to Jon Snow. I will have to concede the point that Jon Snows storyline seems to be taking the biggest hit due to time constraints. I wouldnt say this is a degraded version of the books equivalent to a badly written fanfiction though, that seems somewhat extreme. We are just dealing with a world that is far too vast to be conveyed in any reasonable manner within 10 (so not 1 full hour) episodes. HBO is shooting themselves in their respective feet with this as far as i am concerned. This show has the potential to carry the channel and most of television for years to come. Ive seen so many shows have 20+ 1 hour episodes in a season that shouldnt have even been able to make more than 5 episodes. Budgetary concerns need to be addressed and it needs to be that we can have more time to tell this story. Given the amount of time we are allowed there is no realistic way of telling this story without rushing certain aspects, tweaking certain elements to accommodate the limited timeframe. Blame HBO not the writers.

Try going out to Vegas for a weekend for crazy parties and to experience everything you never experienced before. Then try to tell the 72 hour story (Fri thru Sun) in 50 minutes while hitting every key moment of the experience. Kinda hard to do that isnt it? In essence, a season is equal to a visual synopsis of each book. It hits the key points but unfortunately, for the sake of time, many aspects go unnoticed or unmentioned.

Edited by Dio Forel

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One thing I don't understand- the Tyrell tiny army :shocked: ? Littlefinger says its the largest in the realm, after the Starks and Lannisters- suggesting they have less than 20,000 men? Is there a point to that?

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Now I'm rambling but i want to make it clear that I am not actually trashing the show. On it's own it is great, but as a person who was seriously looking forward to seeing a great series of books turned into a tv show I was and am continually disappointed to find out that I am instead watching a cheap version of fanfiction(it is essentially somebody else's rewrite) even though they have kept the main plot points I get the feeling that they'll continue to skip over some great subplots.

A CHEAP version of fanfiction? You call budget of 50-60 millions of dollars CHEAP? If it is a fanfiction, it's a damn expensive fanfiction.

And about the second point - that seems to be the problem for many readers of ASOIAF. Seems like they expected to get a filmed version of the books or even felt that produsers are somehow obliged to follow the books exacly because this is what readers wanted. But the thing is that HBO is not doing GoT only for people who have read the whole book series but also to people like me who have NOT read those books. So they make choices that makes it easier for us to follow plot without needing to read those books or go to internet and check who was who ect. For example Tickler and his death in the last episode; people here were right pointing out that nobody of non-readers would remember him anymore in the next season and so his death would mean nothing to us or at least not so much as it means for readers.

So, maybe it is a fanfiction but it's a damn good fanfiction. And even though I'll probably get stoned for this I'll say it anyways... I'd choose GoT over the books anyday. I do understand that people love those books but personally I'm just happy that series doesn't follow them in everything. Otherwise one season would last for like 50 episodes instead of 9-10. Who would watch that?

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In the show most of Tyrell's bannermen joined Stannis after Renly's death, unlike in the book.

I'm wondering about that... All the lords of the Reach *are* Tyrell vassals, it's not like they can switch allegiances without batting an eye. The haste with witch Loras and Margaery left implied they feared for their lives. From their own bannermen? Why? That whole plot point I don't quite understand.

And if Tyrell army is so weak compared to the Baratheon army, why would Blackwater turn out the way it probably will?

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I'm wondering about that... All the lords of the Reach *are* Tyrell vassals, it's not like they can switch allegiances without batting an eye. The haste with witch Loras and Margaery left implied they feared for their lives. From their own bannermen? Why? That whole plot point I don't quite understand.

And if Tyrell army is so weak compared to the Baratheon army, why would Blackwater turn out the way it probably will?

DonĀ“t expect the show to make sense, you will only get disappointed

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It's been said a few times that Luck was cancelled due to a third horse dying. Yes, that's what HBO said. I'm sure they were saddened by this, and it was the final straw. However, here is the reason Luck was cancelled. (And some nice news for us)

http://paper.li/GameOfThrones

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It's been said a few times that Luck was cancelled due to a third horse dying. Yes, that's what HBO said. I'm sure they were saddened by this, and it was the final straw. However, here is the reason Luck was cancelled. (And some nice news for us)

http://paper.li/GameOfThrones

Yeah quite independent of GOT Luck's ratings were down and it did not look like a 3rd season for it.

It was done well but David Milch really only seemed to have enough material for a finite story, I could see it was being stretched by the semi-mob gambling angle but that looked like it could last only so long.

I thought Milch's Deadwood was dynamite for two seasons, but once again ... third season started to wander story wise... the cast remained great ... I really don't think Milch had enough story for those two closing movies that never got made.

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Sigh... Deadwood... At least the Bullock spinoff is doing well (Justified), the brilliant Swearinger spinoff (Kings) got 8? episodes.

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I'm definitely on the "one-of-the-best-episodes-so-far" camp.

The sack of Winterfell was really heartbreaking. The contrast of Bran's reactions at the begining when Theon enters his room and during the beheading of Ser Rodrick was a nice touch. The kid is doing a fine acting job. And Theon - there was definitely an "Anakyn Skywalker"-moment there. The expression on his face after he kicks off the head from the body says clearly "There is no turning back". I've actually never liked Theon, but love the drama of his character.

Btw, am I the only one who is wondering where Summer is, when Theon comes into Bran's room? They didn't exclusively emphasized in the show that the wolves are held captive in the God's wood, did they?

Those wide shots in the second season of the show are really great. Love the scenes north of the Wall. Love to see Ghost again. Qhorin was not exactly how I imagined him and I have a problem with the fact, that Jon was the one who wanted to join Qhorin's group in the show. IIRC Qhorin took the initiative in the books. But I could live with that. Hopefully they will go somewhere with those changes. I can't understand all the complaining about the Jon/Ygritte - scenes. Yes, there are some changes, but I am still positive and prefer to wait and see the purpose of all this. I got from the scene that Jon was hesitating to kill Ygritte (as in the books). I think it was a last-minute decision to cut the rock instead of Ygritte's head, when he realized he cannot kill a woman. But then he panicked and started chasing her without thinking. It was just some rush panicking-reaction imo. I still wonder about the purpose of this change - perhaps it is a setup for the Jon-Ygritte relationship. I just hope they won't change Jon's character in some drastic way. I'm ok with the Jon-scenes so far. The actress playing Ygritte is great and the chemistry between them works so far. I am still convinced that Jon won't go straight to the wildlings-camp without having killed Qhorin.

The Arya/Tywin scenes are superb. Those two could really have a show on their own and no one would complain abot that. I am not a Lannister fan (except for Tyrion and a bit of Jaime) so even if Tywin is represented more humanly in the show, I don't like him. Charles Dance is doing a great job though. Don't mind the dialog between him and Arya, don't mind even the hiding game with LF. My only complaint is that we see too much LF and not enough Varys. Want more Varys! Stealing the letter gave Arya a good reason to choose the second death. It was more plausible for the non-book readers that way imo.

The riot scene in KL was very intense. I don't mind the lack of hourses. The anger of the crowd, the panick of the nobles - I just bought it. My only complaint was that Joff got slapped only once.

Dany's scenes were at least interesting for me as always. I enjoyed how condescendig the spice merchant was. And the whole "I will burn this and that... " is really starting to go on my nerves. The stealing of the dragons didn't wake any emotions. We all know she is going to have her dragons back at the House of Undying. I still have some hope for the prophesies left.

Robb, oh Robb, you trully are a King! I hate that the show made Robb such a lovable character. I liked him in the books, but the second season showed him in a really good light. Now I like him even more in the show. I have no doubts that Jane is the beautiful nurse. Still not sure what the purpose of the whole hiding of her personality is. I gues we'll have to wait and see.

Imho this episode was really dynamic, dramatic, showed some very important moments and despite all the changes from the series, it was really great.

Totally agree about the nurse being Jane Westerling, I would imagine she is concealing her identity as she is from a Lannister bannerman house in the northern army, plus a noblewoman at that, it would enable her to interact amongst the troops a lot more. Also, it creates a sense of intrigue for her character to help the audience connect with her, which is needed given her importance in the storyline.

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Amrita Acharia (Irri) said they filmed a scene where she was strangled to death, but they cut it because it revealed the killer.

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I've seen numerous comments regarding the death of the High Septon on multiple fan and other sites reviewing the episode, and I've been wanting to set the record straight on his death. People have called the crowd zombies and really said a lot of negative things about that scene, but I was fairly certain that happened to him in the book, but it has taken me this long to get my hands on my copy.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion Page 599

(Jacelyn Bywater delivers the death toll to Tyrion)

The list of the slain was topped by the High Septon, ripped apart as he squealed to his gods for mercy. Starving men take a hard view of priests too fat to walk, Tyrion reflected.

I know the scene was pretty jarring, and I am not sure how a crowd could rip someone's limbs off with their bare hands, but it did come from the book.

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