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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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1. It is obvious that Doreah betrayed Dany. She was tired of being a harlot/slave and wanted money and freedom. That was an inside job as her body wasn't amongst the slain.

2. I hated they have killed off Dany's Khalaasar (sp?) it was an important part of the decisions she made, good ones and bad ones in the books and now they are almost all gone except for a handful. Also, seems like Dany won't be having "serviced" scenes that are in Storm and Dragons. I thought those were unnecessary in the books.

3. So it seems like they are really for budget and time dumping a lot of stuff. Also, to keep the TV audience from being more confused than I am sure they are.

4. Stealing the Dragons is LAME! Seeing dead Unsullied and dead Dothraki was a shock. It seems that GRRM wants to shock and awe book readers again by allowing D and D to achieve more fan fiction.

5. They have greatly departed from the books. Ser Rodrik was killed by Lord Ramsay Snow. But to show Theon's arc they showed Theon killing someone who trained him at arms. Sort of like Anakin Skywalker killing the Young Padawans in "Revenge of the Sith."

6. I liked the Osha scene but it was predictable, again sex scenes aren't my thing that is why I have a remote.

7. The Littlefinger Arya scene was forced. I enjoyed the banter between Lord Tywin and Arya, it seems to me that Lord Tywin knows who Arya is but is playing with her until his suspicions are confirmed.

Bad departure in some ways, good in others. I've never seen a "Harry Potter" movie so all the HP folks are freaking out after seeing her neekid. Calm down folks it wasn't porn. Yessh . .

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The creepiest thing was the voice of the Actress playing Ygritte (who is too clean and too pretty to be the book Ygritte) her voice sounds the same as I imagined Ygritte's in my head!!!

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I'm liking the inclusion of Roose but where the hell has the Greatjon gone?

The Greatjon Umber has gone to help Dany find her Dragons that Pyat Pree stole and took to the House of the Undying which strangely looks like the Tower of Babel . . it is known . .

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why should he know she is highborn? All he knows is that she knows how to read. Also, in the books Arya is as sharp as a whip and I must say that Tywin makes several stupid moves. Like thinking Rob would actually send acurate word of his advance. Or not recognizing Tyrions genius years before and utilizing him effectivly. He's not a genius of a man, just a rich one.

The problem I have with neither Tywin nor LF spotting Arya either as who she is (LF) or at least as a highborn (Tywin) is that we get Robb the 1st spotting Talissa as a highborn lady with far fewer interactions. LF is supposed to be a people reader and Twin is master of details, how can they not spot this when Robb does?

I liked the episode - how Winterfell was taken, Theon needing three swings to get Cassells head off, I would have liked the riot to be bigger but they did it well. The interaction between Tywin & Baelish was fine, Arya showed some of the "mouse" that she felt in Harrenhall - just the gap that neither of them could spot her seems really awkward with Robb being able to do that same thing. The spicer was great, I love that while people are amazed at her dragons, not everyone is just falling over themselves to befriend her.

Jon/Ygritte - meh, another scene that makes Jon look like a moron; if he wasn't going to kill her, why chase her?

Osha turning to Theon - screen time is at at a premium, have her say she's a spearwife, kick the guard in the junk and take the spear. She's gained the trust and can still slit the guards throat.

Dragon-napping: yay, artificial cliff hanger.

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Glad to hear Ramsay will be in it. But as a purist, this season has been painful. The show only uses the books as a guideline now. Don't say it's because of "budget." Last season stayed very close to the books, and a lot of plots/scenes have been added. Most of the dialogue in the show now never happened in the books.

Most of the changes this season have been to spice it up. Nothing really happens in the Dany story, so they added her dragons being stolen to make it more entertaining. Same with Jon and Craster and now John and Ygritte. Most of the changes, like these, make perfect sense for TV as they are more entertaining than the scenes in the book.

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Are we sure that Osha and the Stark kids are going to be hiding in the crypts? With the way things are going this season, I wouldn't be surprised if they just leave Winterfell all together and start out towards the Wall.

I had that exact same thought! But that leaves the death of the Maester unresolved, too.

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First Impressions:

I've overused this expression but it becomes more and more true. If any purist survived the first five episodes, their heads exploded this week. Massive changes. This doesn't bother me, the show is the show and the books are the books. I am happy when they change things because I get surprised.

Again, they followed last week's reverse formula of starting with the big bang. Other than Theon's first speech to Bran (which seemed forced exposition, and out of place in such an emotional place), excellent scene.

The Jon scenes were well done but formulaic, nothing special. I don't like Ygritte in the books, and I don't like her here. She is a paint by numbers stereotype in both formats. The Halfhand is good, but not great.

Arya and Tywin are just great, no moment will match "Anyone can die.", but another well crafted scene between them. I think we will see the cold heart of Tywin when he leaves without saying a word and passes her off to Vargo Hoat. Littlefinger knowing where Arya is opens up all kinds of possibilities. I loved Lorch's death.

The High Septon looks exactly like the Spice Merchant. The riot was very well done. Hopefully that will quiet the mewing of the Hound's posse here.

Dany/Spice King was effective and ends with the huge bang. Glad they are going to give Dany something heroic to do. Likely leading to the return of Barristan.

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So am I guessing this is what happens next

1. Doreah gets killed for betraying Queen Dany

2. Ramsay Snow ambushes the Iron Born troops takes their dressings on his own men, so when Theon thinks that the Iron Born are coming to help him, it is in fact the Boltons in disguise. They knock out or kill Theon (I don't put it past D and D) and put the castle to the torch. Good way of setting things up that way if anyone sees it they will see Kraken banners and gear not flayed man of The Dreadfort.

3. I miss Roose's hair . . where is his long black thin hair? They couldn't get this guy a wig?

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Is it just me or is the actor playing the High Septon the same person playing Qarth's Spice Merchant?

Welcome to Westeros, Lemoncurd, first post! I'd have to look at the cast list, but I think they're different.

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I didn't like them in the books, but something about TV-Ygritte is endearing. Maybe I'll start to dislike her healthily after the 10th "You know nothing, Jon Snow," but I right now I like this Ygritte a lot. Right now she's spirited without being obnoxious, although maybe the obnoxious part will come out soon.

I realize I represent the minority here but--I WISH the Ygritte was more like the one in the books, a tough disheveled experienced folksy "obnoxious" warrior. I loved her the way she was in the books, and I feel like the version on the show is kind of a pretty eye-shadow-bearing sanitized version designed to appeal to most of us today. I just -- that's not really who she IS, and I think what's awesome about the book is being able to mold together and establish the very tension between the opposites in John Snow and Ygritte. Being able to accept and appreciate the love they feel for each other, despite being so very different in so many regards. And I really don't think Ygritte is that obnoxious, "You know nothing John Snow" makes sense to me, coming from a lady who has been trained to survive in the harshest environment in the seven kingdoms. Wouldn't YOU feel the same way, confronted with somebody who had it relatively easy, who had so many opinions that disagreed with the ones you were raised with?

I wanted a more authentic wildling in Ygritte, and I think that's crucial to the love story unfolding between them. When Jon Snow (SPOILER ALERT) realizes she is dead, I don't want to feel like I'm watching the ending of the Titanic -- because it's not so simplistic. It's that Jon Snow simply cannot ultimately overcome the cultural barrier between him and a wildling -- not just because they are on two sides of the war, but also because they are two very different personalities. He knows he cannot trust her. I'm rambling.

As for Tywin -- very similar views here. It's not that I dislike the Tywin scenes, but I do call into question whether it REALLY is Tywin Lannister showing respect and interest to a servant. This is the guy who had a full barracks of men rape a woman his son married because she was simply not royalty, in order to embed a sense of discrimination in his son. Tywin's message - there are rulers, and there are ruled, and if you are a ruler, then any woman not of royalty is a whore (after your riches), and this is to make sure you NEVER make the mistake of bridging that divide. So... Yes, there is grey in ASoIaF, but different shades of grey: Tywin WAS a very prejudiced man, and that makes perfect sense given the inevitably hierarchical medieval Machiavellian setting he lived in, and I do think people should appreciate that, or at the very least be exposed to it. That system of oligarchical conquest persisted for a while... it didn't change much until the rapid advances in the economy and in weapon technology which created less incentive and a sort of deterrent to non-stop conquest (no longer needed to plunder others to have enough natural resources, and the risk was higher), and also decentralized protection; protection which peasants formerly heavily relied on the ruling class to provide.

There are these notions we often have of "uncivilized", "racist", "classist", or "sexist" just being an unfortunate *happenstance* of the past, rather than realizing their existence and early development were (pretty much) inevitable and "logical" outcomes given historical context. I feel like the book/author strongly embodies this sentiment, which I think ultimately represents appreciating "grey" in all the characters--NOT this "everybody has a good heart" rubbish that seems to be a common TV series pitch these days.

So... yeah I'd like to see Ygritte and Tywin a little LESS endearing, the way they were in the books. :P

Doubt many will read this, but feel free to PM me if you disagree!

Edited by BastardOfWinterfell

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What did the letter say that Arya took? Also, unless Jaqen took it back, wouldn't Tywin know that Arya took it?

The bit I read said: "Robb Stark moves troops south by coast. Alert.... turn east at silverhill"

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Am I the only one thinking the show is damn faithful to the books ?

All the changes there were were merely tiny changes, some little stuff modified.

But the core is still there, the main story lines are still there, no change has been really important so far, only tiny details were modified but this is still the exact same story as in the books.

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Am I the only one thinking the show is damn faithful to the books ?

All the changes there were were merely tiny changes, some little stuff modified.

But the core is still there, the main story lines are still there, no change has been really important so far, only tiny details were modified but this is still the exact same story as in the books.

People like to be negative about everything.

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The letter that Arya took would be from Roose, right? It would fit with Robb saying that he can't discuss troop movements with "Jeyne" since she might be a spy, but we have seen him discuss them freely with Roose.

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What's up with Osha and why is her head always crooked over to the side?

Right? I asked my husband the same thing.

I am really loving this season so far, but am sad that its going by so fast. I'm good with all the changes so far because there's only so much time and, well, I'm not gonna complain if they speed up Dany's storyline. I feel like kidnapping the dragons just served to add some excitement to her story a bit, as opposed to just showing her yelling at people all the time. Honestly, I don't think Clark's acting is all that great, so the less of her yelling about taking what is her's by right, the better, IMO. Can't wait to her in the HOTU!!

LOVED the Theon stuff too. That was perfect. Major kudos to the acting for Theon and Bran.

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- Osha! Tonks busting the kiddos out was awesome. And we got a glimpse of Shaggydog! Loved it when she slit the guys' throat -- great shot of her with her arm out, looking like a ninja.

By Shaggydog, what exactly are you referring to?

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We have a glimpse of Shaggydog alongside Summer at the end of the episode, when they leave Winterfell.

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What an episode!!! The opening scene with Theon when he killed Ser Rodrick was so intense, I didn't even hear one word of the next scene with Jon Snow... my brain was still trying to process what I just saw! And the Hound in action! Woo Hoo! But why, why, WHY did he not kill that last guy cowering in the corner when he was walking out with Sansa over his shoulder?!?! I thought for sure that he was going to stop and stab that dude. Tywin seemed a little too chatty with Aria, but still a great scene. And Dany getting her dragons stolen? At first I was like what is this nonsense... but after I thought about it more, I always wondered while reading the books why this was never attempted. Anywhoo, great episode, and it actually felt long to me for once!

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