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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion

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What's with everybody this season treating Jon as some kind of an idiot this season and rubbing it in his face repeatedly, BTW? I don't even like him and yet it starting to get annoying and too much. Craster, the Old Bear, now Qhorin and Ygritte... How would the writers sell to the viewers Jon being chosen for Lord Commander so young when they keep presenting him as an incompetent fool?

What was that "You are even dumber than you look" line for?

Edited by David Selig

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The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

You're acting as if he's thinking his actions all the way through. The entire point of having him bring down the sword is that up until the last second he didn't know he wasn't going to kill her. His train of though is roughly "whew, avoided that moral quandary. Why did Qhorin want me to kill her in the first place? ... OH MY GOD SHE'S RUNNING TO TELL EVERYONE!"

As to Qhorin and the rest of them leaving that's really Martin's fault. "Alright, I know you're just a green boy with a history of insubordination who has really big qualms about killing this relatively innocent girl, but it's absolutely imperative that you do it. We'll just leave you completely unsupervised to do it."

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Jesus, man, chill out

He chases her because he didn't LET her go. He just didn't KILL her. She's still a wilding who can give away their position if she goes free.

It's a freaking conundrum for him. It's called drama and building tension. Eventually he will probably HAVE to let her go, for the reasons you said. But it's a difficult decision between honor/loyalty and not wanting to kill a women. It's basically a small sample of his ENTIRE plot for book three. I think it's perfect

Yes, it's a change from the book, but deal with it. It's not huge, it works for TV and it's fun

No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

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You're acting as if he's thinking his actions all the way through. The entire point of having him bring down the sword is that up until the last second he didn't know he wasn't going to kill her. His train of though is roughly "whew, avoided that moral quandary. Why did Qhorin want me to kill her in the first place? ... OH MY GOD SHE'S RUNNING TO TELL EVERYONE!"

As to Qhorin and the rest of them leaving that's really Martin's fault. "Alright, I know you're just a green boy with a history of insubordination who has really big qualms about killing this relatively innocent girl, but it's absolutely imperative that you do it. We'll just leave you completely unsupervised to do it."

Yet somehow Jon was able to catch up to them in the source material, so it isn't Martin's fault. And the same conumdrum that faced Jon here was also present in the book - so it's not like the problem was created without a potential solution available.

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So, just one more thing about the scene that really has me shaking my head (and its not the dragon kidnapping scene; Dany needs to do something, it makes a certain kind of sense and I am willing to let that play out- it may work):

Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

And remember Ghost? What was he doing? Is Ghost really even here at this point? Was he in the back going, "Jesus... fuck me... all the running ... Jon she... she's just going to try to kill you in your sleep... I'm not chasing that...she's gotta be... what? Ten fifteen yards away at this point... I could turn an ankle and ... and he nearest hospital is, like 1,500 years away so... and I am NOT going back to Craster's nosireeBob... So, I'm just going to stay over here and wait to see how all this turns out- why don't you chase the redhead and I'll just watch ..."

And my favorite part was when they first capture Ygritte and Qhorin Half-hand is like, "Don't bother asking her any questions; she won't answer them..." And then they proceed to ask her questions and she answers every single one. Somebody has to be a better proof-reader.

Okay, seriously, why is he chasing her?

(and one final note: I think this may be one gigantic circumnavigation around Jon's orders to betray the Watch and stay with the wildings and make it so Half-hand actually THINKS Jon has gone over to the wildings. This may end up with Jon REALLY fighting Halfhand and REALLY being taken in by the wildings. If that is the case... then I think ... then I think it goes from being "Nitpicking" to "Oh, this is just bad.")

Wow, you really hate this series. Of all the posters you seem to be the most negative.

I completely disagree with your views on this show. I actually cannot imagine i being better. Almost every change that has been made is an improvement on the source material and makes for a tighter more interesting show.

And Jon chased Ygritte for any of many reasons not the least of which is to prevent her from warning the free folk, and because he was supposed to have killed her.

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Why is Jon chasing Ygritte? I know people here loved that scene (and that's fine you may have better, more refined tastes than me), but we are now 13 pages and 250+ posts and nobody has been able to adequately explain to me why he is chasing her. Jon decided not to kill her, we get that, and as she runs, he chases her? Why? Did she drop her hand-bag? Why is he chasing after the prisoner he just let free? Its not that its nonsensical (and don't get me wrong it makes absolutely no sense); its that we had a really clear explanation in the books and we are just not sticking with it. I mean people seemed to have loved that scene- what is their explanation as to why he's chasing her?

I thought I mentioned it in my post. It appears this Jon is nervous over the prospect of an escaped Ygritte blowing their cover. He can't bring himself to kill her, so he'd rather try and drag her along as a prisoner. To me, it's not such an insane alteration.

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How did Roose know that Theon had killed Ser Rodrik? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Luwin's raven says the following: "Ironmen have taken Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy in command."

This was sent before Theon had killed Rodrik, when Luwin was desperately getting his raven off mid-takeover. Yet Roose knows that he's dead, despite (presumably) only reading the above.

Sup?

And he set Luwin to his Maester duties immediately after killing him. Sending ravens to his father and sister. Surely Maester Luwin couldn't have sent a second one to Rivverun. (Where I assume he was sending the ones for Robb)

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The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

It's pretty simple, really: he could not bring himself to kill her but he didn't want her to escape back to the Wilding camp and give the alarm. Jon is very young and completely inexperienced with women. He is a man of honor, however, and killing a woman----even a Wilding woman----is not really possible for him.

I thought this scene was ok and can't complain about it.

The thing I don't understand in the comments so far is this putative sympathy for Theon. Theon is a weak man and self-obsessed to boot. It may all be a function of his life as a hostage. I don't know and don't care. He has always been a user of others----Roz comes to mind. He's basically insecure and makes a willing sycophant for any stronger person who confronts him---Robb, his father, even Dagmar. He's a totally vile piece of crap and deserves what happens to him at the hands of Ramsay Snow/Bolton.

Maise/Arya is just getting better and better!

Why didn't that turd hit Joffrey in the mouth?

Anybody else think the actor playing Jaqen looks like Brad Pitt? (SIAP)

I prefer Osha neck-down to neck-up.

Creepy scene between Cersei and Tyrion at Myrcella's departure. Could this refer to Sansa?

I wanted this episode to never end. It might be the best yet for me.

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Yet somehow Jon was able to catch up to them in the source material, so it isn't Martin's fault. And the same conumdrum that faced Jon here was also present in the book - so it's not like the problem was created without a potential solution available.

You're exactly right. But like I said, this is for television now.

A chase scene is good for TV. Turning around and letting her walk away isn't. Furthermore, because we're not going to see a Shakespeare-like Montage, and because we can't hear Jon's thoughts, simple turning around and letting her go doesn't serve to show what a difficult decision it is.

He has to make a choice and he can't. So he runs after her, fearing what will happen if she goes free. Eventually, he'll get back to his men, and let her go, I think. If he doesn't, it's a big change and something that I'll have to review as we get to it. But as of now, assuming it goes how I think, it doesn't change anything significantly and I think it adds to the television production.

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No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

Unlike the situation with Gilly, Jon has no option involving leaving Ygritte behind. It's "Do as I say, not as I do." Jon can't bring himself to kill Ygritte. He either has to let her go, and allow her to blow Night Watch cover, or drag her along. Telling Sam to leave Gilly behind was easy.

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This is where the entire series goes to hell. I can't believe that so many people are in favor of the changes. I have fallen in love with the TV series so far because it has been so faithful to the books. Afterall, it just makes good sense to go with the plot that has been proven to work. Why change what isn't broken?

I guess I should deviate from other posters and say why the changes will not work...

Arya - Peter Baelish is in love with Catelyn; there is no way he wouldn't have recognized Arya

The second death was too quick; its not how the faceless men work

Bran- No Meera and Jojen Reed; they are kindred spirits of Bran and Rickon

Daenerys- Why? The notion that the dragons could be stolen takes away from Daenerys credibility as a natural ruler and is just unnecessary; it also makes the warlocks seem to be a force to be reckoned with; in the book it gives the impression that they are merely illusionists and not particularly good at what they do

Jon Snow- Ygritte in the book initially despises Jon Snow; the idea that she would come on to him when he is a crow and not yet proven himself to be a Wilding is ridiculous and ruins the entire character of Ygritte; how can her character have any credibility now?

the riot- completely different from the book; they are on horses in the book I believe; having Tyrion insult and slap the King again is taking things too far, it is not believeable and there is no reason that Joffrey would not just have had him killed at this point;

Talissa- obviously this will become Robb's wife Jeyne Westerling; but the book insists that Robb's decision was one of impulse and haste; that the relationship developed over time has completely different implications

______________________________________________________________________

Mark my words, this is the end of everything good about the Game of Thrones TV series. Every time a hack screenwriter has the arrogance to think he can do it better it almost always turns out bad.

This is truly the end!!!

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This is where the entire series goes to hell. I can't believe that so many people are in favor of the changes. I have fallen in love with the TV series so far because it has been so faithful to the books. Afterall, it just makes good sense to go with the plot that has been proven to work. Why change what isn't broken?

I guess I should deviate from other posters and say why the changes will not work...

Arya - Peter Baelish is in love with Catelyn; there is no way he wouldn't have recognized Arya

The second death was too quick; its not how the faceless men work

Bran- No Meera and Jojen Reed; they are kindred spirits of Bran and Rickon

Daenerys- Why? The notion that the dragons could be stolen takes away from Daenerys credibility as a natural ruler and is just unnecessary; it also makes the warlocks seem to be a force to be reckoned with; in the book it gives the impression that they are merely illusionists and not particularly good at what they do

Jon Snow- Ygritte in the book initially despises Jon Snow; the idea that she would come on to him when he is a crow and not yet proven himself to be a Wilding is ridiculous and ruins the entire character of Ygritte; how can her character have any credibility now?

the riot- completely different from the book; they are on horses in the book I believe; having Tyrion insult and slap the King again is taking things too far, it is not believeable and there is no reason that Joffrey would not just have had him killed at this point;

Talissa- obviously this will become Robb's wife Jeyne Westerling; but the book insists that Robb's decision was one of impulse and haste; that the relationship developed over time has completely different implications

______________________________________________________________________

Mark my words, this is the end of everything good about the Game of Thrones TV series. Every time a hack screenwriter has the arrogance to think he can do it better it almost always turns out bad.

This is truly the end!!!

You named yourself well.

Eponymous much?

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No, that's the problem, it doesn't work. Jon understands what it is like up there - remember he gave Sam a once over for wanting to bring Gilly north with them? So how, after Quorin has all ready told him about the food, does Jon think this is a good idea to keep her alive and with him? On top of there being a perfectly plausible explanation given in the book? Change is fine, but this change doesn't make sense as they did it.

The entire point is that Jon doesn't really understand, not in the visceral, instinctual way Qhorin or Ygritte does. All he knows is he can't kill her, he's not prepared to let her go, and Qhorin's not gonna let him bring her along. What's a poor bastard to do? Conveniently bed down with her to delay the point when he has to make a decision, apparently. He knows it's a terrible idea to keep her with him, but he can't bring himself to do either of the alternatives, yet. (I'm actually betting she'll just give him the slip during the night.)

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That was a great episode, even though we had no Stannis. It reminded me of just how much I hated Theon before Ramsay made me pity him, how much of a little piece of sh-- he was. I also absolutely adored how delirious and stupidly megalomaniac Daenerys already sounded this episode, something I only truly felt in ASoS and, mostly, ADwD. Oh, and the spice merchant's condescending tone was just priceless! lol I love that guy! I don't know how to feel about the dragons being stolen yet, but was that tower the House of the Undying?

And was it my impression, or is Arya actually beginning to like Tywin? Can't really blame her, and thumbs up for this show for showing just how great their dynamics would be.

Nat Tena is simply perfect as Osha, no wonder GRRM wants to expand the character's role based on her acting! I love the animalistic aura she gives the character. And Rodrik... truly the saddest death so far, maybe even sadder than Ned's where the show is concerned (but that's only until season 3 or 4 kills my favorite Dornish, of course).

And really, does Littlefinger have to appear so much like a noob this season? I wonder if Martin approves it, and if he does, if that could be considered a clue to his general incompetence in the last two books. Watching him this season destroys all my illusions the same way reading Cersei's chapters in AFFC did.

Oh, and I liked what they did to that crucial scene in KL, with all the alterations. I don't think it would have been easy to use horses on that scene like in the book. I also think it was a good idea to change slightly the attack on Sansa, builds up the tension. For a moment I actually thought she'd be the new Lollys. And the septon... ugh...

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I rated this a solid seven. It's hard to still like the changes and to accept the budget of the show -- it just doesn't mesh with the world George has created -- but I did like this episode. it was solid writing, solid acting, though the end was particularly awful.

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Off topic of last night's episode, but I get absolutely ZERO work done on Monday's now. It's 1:30 now and I have done nothing since I got to work at 8:00 except for reading recaps/reading comments/leaving comments/re-watching episode on HBOGO/more reading comments/more leaving comments/etc. WHEW! This is ridiculous, especially considering how busy it is at my work right now, but oh well... only four weeks left and then it's all over.

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I thought it was really cool when Dany said she has dreams that come true. So,it looks like she inherited the Targ family gift. She did seem a little off her rocker saying it, though. I wonder if Jorah was like "Uh oh...here we go again,,,the Mad Queen."

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With few exceptions this season, I have agreed with this websites analysis of episodes. Whether I have agreed or disagreed, they have always been poignant, insightful, and great to read. This weeks edition is no exception to the latter, but I have an almost diametrically opposed outlook on the episode itself.

Starting with the sack of Winterfell. I was with this scene the entire way until the emergence of Ser Rodrik Cassel. It was well shot, well written, and emotionally engaging the entire way. The problem I had was the content. There is a huge difference in my mind of killing a mouthy commoner and executing the man who helped raise Theon and trained him how to use a sword. It is absolutely plot essential that the character of Theon Greyjoy becomes redeemed for the future of this series. By eliminating the Reek character to take the blame for the majority of the dastardly actions is going to make it that much harder for the television audience to do. I do console myself with the fact that there have been other changes made to the character that makes this a bit more possible.

I don't really like the setting of Iceland as the backdrop for North of the Wall. It is too barren for me to believe that there are 100,000 wildlings living off the land. It also looks like a miserable place to film. That is good in the sense that on screen, we can see that the characters are actually cold, but because of this, I also get the impression that they aren't able to give their best performances. Dialogue just feels rushed in these scenes, and I don't blame the actors. It is freezing out side in this location. I personally would rather have seen North of the Wall left in last years location of Ireland.

The main complaint that I hear about these scenes with John Snow and Ygritte I had no problem with though. Yes, it is a change from the book, but as of this episode, it doesn't take away from either of the characters. I have no problem with John running after a fleeing wildling. We only have so much room in the TV series, and the meat of the story here is Snow's relationship with the wildlings and Ygrette. As for why Ghost didn't chase her with John, my question would be if you had trained your animal, wouldn't you have given it a command to unleash it on someone? As he was running after her to capture, it makes perfect sense to me that he wouldn't have called his direwolf to do a job that he himself had decided that he wasn't going to do. I also particularly liked the scene where Ygrette was teasing John. I thought it was a brilliant way of showing physically the struggles that Snow went through in his head that we just can not be privy to in the medium of film.

I took no issue with Harrenhall at all. I liked the mix up in communication for several reasons. It highlighted that Tywin was surrounded by incompetents in the war. This was not extolled upon in the books as we didn't have a POV in his camp, but it must have been happening for him to have lost so many battles decisively. It also again gave us the opportunity to realize that Arya is incredibly sharp witted. I particularly liked the humanization of Tywin as a man who loved his children, but was hard as stone. I think that Arya saw a little bit of her own father in him, and I think that fits perfectly with the theme that there are no heroes, or villains in this world.

As a reader, I obviously had the foreknowledge that Arya was not going to be discovered by Littlefinger. The vast majority of people watching this show have not read the books, and I thought that this scene built up a bit of suspense for them. I also thought that the urgent need to use her second name was a clever way of getting rid of it. I can see the point that no other gaurds helped Lorch in trying to detain Arya, but it did not immediately pop out to me as particularly egregious. I didn't even realize it until that had been pointed out.

Since I have nothing to say about the riot of King's Landing except that it was absolutely brilliant in every aspect of my mind, I will wrap this up with Quarth. From reading the books, I never got the impression that the entire city was supposed to be other worldly. The Quarth in my mind doesn't look too terribly different from the one that I am being shown. I did get the sense that the House of the Undying was like a 70's acid trip, but the rest of Quarth just seemed to be filled with people of ambition. I personally liked Dany's interaction with the spice lord. It showed her as a naive youth, but also as a person who had the potential to come into serious power and leadership abilities. It justifies her journey later as we as viewers know that she has to mature. As far as the dragons go, This is just another example of John getting clobbered across the head by Craster. It won't mean anything in the long run

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The whole scene just made no sense. He chose to let her go, I accept that... but why did he chase after her ? And why didn't Qhorin and the rest wait for him ? And where was Ghost ?

And well I hate Jon and Ygritte in the book too, so there you have it :P

IMO, it didn't make sense for Ygritte to escape only to be caught and presumably released again. However, wildling women seem to have esteem only for men who have taken or stolen them. So, Jon's capture and keeping of her gives a good lead in for her role in bringing him into the Rayder fold. Still question the omission of Halfhand's instruction to Jon to do what needs to be done rather than apparently instructing Jon to kill her.

As one who found the whole Snow beyond the Wall to be tedious in the books, I think Ygritte adds a lot. Plus, the actress is pretty foxy. Me like.

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