Jump to content

[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion


Ran
 Share

Recommended Posts

Need to see this again, but a lot of it was slow.

Jaime/Catelyn - Fairley played her part well, but Waldau KILLED his "vow" dialogue. I didn't like him killing his cousin because it just seemed unnecessary for his plan. This is the Kingslayer, most feared knight around...and he's not being watched to the point that he can beat someone to death and no one notices? Have Alton fake...anything...and it gets there more reasonably.

Theon - Allen is also nailing his part, thought they did that whole scene well. Going to be interesting to see how the dogs lost the trail since they were, what, 200 yards from the farm and obviously had a trail up to there.

Tywin/Arya - the scene was great, they are just amazing playing against each other. Unfortunately for me, it reinforces a plot hole they wrote themselves into. Arya looking at his neck with the knife - so we know she believes he is a target. Why didn't she have Jaqen kill him before?

Jon/Ygritte - their acting is fine, I just happen to believe about 15 minutes of screen time was wasted on snow, walking and blue balls.

Dany/Qarth - Interesting...even though he has only been on screen for like 30 seconds, Jorah still rocks.each scene. Not sure how I feel about the PP/XXD - I guess the biggest thing for me out of it is why - why would XXD want to do that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So they picked up the trail and then at that moment, they decide it's time to give up, and just kill a few random folks and pretend they killed the kids? That makes no sense at all.

Next episode is The Prince of Winterfell, there is plenty of time for a 2 minutes scene with the four of them in the crypts between when Yara arrives, mocks Theon and then Ramsey arrives and burns the place to the ground. It gives them a 2 week Clffhanger until we see the four of them walking out of the ruins in Ep 10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just my opinion, and its been a while since I've read book two, but I found myself thinking two things throughout the episode... the first was - wow, was ANYTHING from the book actually in this episode? In the first book the liberties were few and for the most part good decisions to further the story in the truncated form they had to, but now I'm watching it and its almost like fan fic to me its so different. Its not the cutting of huge subplots (why waste time introducing Florian is you have no intention of using him?), but the active adding in new ones as well.

The second - and this is personal opinion, of course - is it seems that the further and further away they get from the source material, the more forced and even at times awkward it feels. The way they changed the nature of Jamie's escape, in my opinion, changed fundamental aspects of the character. Ygritte's relentless 'flirtations' with John came off as juvenile and forced to me. For Tyrion and Cersi to go from vile threats to heartfelt one-to-one's seemed off. All Dany is at this point is begging and whining by turns. The first season was so incredibly good, but I've been uninspired by recent episodes, perhaps because they raised the bar so high to begin.

I don't doubt that Martin is being consulted a great deal and I expected and therefor have a great deal of patince for the liscence they need to be able to get where they want to get in the time allowed... but moments like Jamie's conversation with his cousin, great as it was, seemed to be a huge chunk of time that could have been better used introducing Tyrion's chain, referencing the wildfire that would be so crucial to the finale or otherwise advancing the story along the lines of the book itself. Ditto the interaction between Arya and Tywin which I also think is superbly done... that is a LOT of time spent in one episode which does almost nothing to further the story while so many other seemingly crucial aspects are being cut.

Moreover, it seems at times like they might have cut the episode down to maybe an hour and twenty minutes to successfully tell the story they wanted to tell, but then had to slash another 15 minutes or so leaving certain scenes lurching (like the walnuts thing - did they find walnuts on the trail before reaching the house with the orphans? If so then why drop the pursuit if they found the walnuts since they're clearly on the right track?).

Just my two cents. The acting is still stellar, the production values off the charts. I just wish they would adhere a little more closely to the story the fans have spent years loving and years more anticipating being seen on the screen.

Edited by Mercurial
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They really are changing some things. Many have been good and necessary but others just baffle me.

I was little disappointed with Jaime changes especially after watching the Inside the Episode thing.

At this rate I wouldn't be surprised if Cat cuts Jaime's hand. :/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jamie killing his cousin serves to remind the audience just how much of an asshole he is. And as he did say to Cersei in season one, he'll kill everyone to be together with her.

I imagine Jon will Kill Quorin in Ep 10, aptly named Valar Morghulis. Probably leaving the audience thinking he betrayed his vows (and then to be revealed he did on orders next season). Seems like a good way to wrap up his storyline this season.

Theon - Allen is also nailing his part, thought they did that whole scene well. Going to be interesting to see how the dogs lost the trail since they were, what, 200 yards from the farm and obviously had a trail up to there.

Well, Rickon commmented how the one kid was a good tree climber (or some such) so it is possible they never went to the village and the cracked chestnuts were from the millers boys. On a side note finding cracked chestnuts in a homestead is a piss poor reason for thinking youve found the escapees.

EDIT - I dont see why Bran has to go back to Winterfell. I think he'll just continue on. It makes zero sense to go back.

Edited by blasted_saber
Link to comment
Share on other sites

They should have added in that the Millers boys could possibly have been Theon's. For me, that's the point Theon really changes in the books.

Also, why do we not know Jon is a warg yet?? If they are still leading up to a fight between Jon and Halfhand, why would Halfhand let Jon kill him? How will they explain a seasoned ranger, a legend in his own time, letting a green boy,who's only claim to anything is accidently killing a white, kill him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So Dany said they couldn't find Doreah. Does that mean Doreah betrayed her and took the dragons because she could touch them without being bitten or roasted?

No, it doesn't have to mean that. My guess is that she is in on the capture, but she doesn't have to be - with the power it seems the warlocks can wield, capturing three cats that were all ready in cages doesn't seem too difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jaime killing Alton is NO problem with me. Don't you guys remember all the times Jaime talked about killing Brienne in his mind to escape? So why wouldn't he kill Alton to escape.

Yes, the whole cousin who looked up to him made it more brutal than usual, but don't act like its a HUGE deviation from his character.

Yeah. Even in the books, he doesn't care much about more distant relatives, es evidenced by his reaction to the death of Stefford Lannister.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmm really? I didn't take it that way at all. I get the vibe he actually really likes/respects Arya (well as much as he can respect a little girl cup-bearer anyway). I'll have to rewind but I really didn't get that.

I think the point is kind of that he can like and respect even a child and still use them - even have them killed - if it seems justified in the moment.

I also initially got the impression that he was using her as a food-taster, but then he didn't eat any of it, just sent her off to the kitchens to finish up... so that kind of derailed that suspicion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish the people complaining about the changes would just realize that it is going to happen and watch the show for what it is. Which is a very well done adaptation of a great book series with a whole lot of storylines. Yes, they have changed minor details and how certain plots play out, they have to do it for a TV/Drama/HBO audience. But the major plot points are all still there. Name me an adaptation that 100% follows the source material and I will name you a liar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought last night's episode was way too big a deviation from the books. I HATED the new Mountain. His appearence got seared into my mind after the way they introduced him last season and re-casting the role ruins that for me.

I had the feeling that "Talisa" was actually Jeyne Westerling last night just confirmed it for me.

I didn't like the way Jaime shanked Alton Lannister in the cage because as others have said it makes his redemption more difficult.

I understand Dany's stuff had to get spiced up for TV but I wonder if what took place last night is going to affect how Strong Belwas and Ser Barristan the Bold find their way to her. And I am worried about how the House of the Undying will be handled. On a lighter note my mother who doesn't watch at all saw a couple of Dany's scenes and announced that she hates her character.

And I'm not going to hide the fact that I kind of like the softer Tywin Lannister.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Side note: when I am teasing the Purists, I am having a bit of fun with you. I am always amused by fans of source material complaining about changes in adaptations. I don't understand why the people who hate the show continue to watch it, but that's not for me to choose what they do. As for complaining about the show, no worries here, I've had plenty for the 17 of these threads we've made so far...

One episode is about an hour long, you can dislike one scene/character portrayal and still enjoy the rest. It's not like I love *everything* that's in the books either. Jon usually bores me to tears for example, but I've still read the series twice (without skipping his chapters).

I'm not a fan of Jaime's new escape plan, mainly because I find it a completely stupid one. Did Jaime really expect to make it out of the Riverlands alone, after months of malnutrition and inactivity ? I doubt he would have killed a cousin for such a lousy shot at freedom. I'm also amused that Robb put one of his Lord's heir on guard duty like a common soldier, but I guess you could say he wanted someone reliable to watch over the Kingslayer. Apparently D&D are increasing Jaime's doucheness factor while decreasing Cersei's. That whole "is it the price for our sins ?" strikes me as really off, especially with Tyrion as audience. After all she's the one who said "You win or you die, there is no middle ground".

The worse change was altering Cat's motivation to free Jaime though. Yes, it makes sense within the show because Karstark is still in camp and out for Jaime's blood. It was bad enough when they had Tyrion and Littlefingertell Cat that releasing Jaime was the only way to see her daughters again (because she is completely stupid and could never have figured that out on her own), but now she's just reacting to Karstark's threats instead of taking the initiative and freeing Jaime of her own accord. What's even worse is that this is apparently D&D's idea of making her character more sympathetic (read : making her a doormat).

Considering how much I'm "complaining" you'd think I found the episode worthless but that's not actually true. I found everything else pretty great, especially Rose Leslie's acting and the Winterfell scenes. Alfie Allen's face is killing me (particularly at the beginning when that guard refers to Hodor as "the giant" and at the end when he looks at the children's burned corpses), and Donald Sumpter is spectacular as well. The corpses seem a bit too carbonized for Luwin to be able to tell it's no Bran and Rickon though, which would mean he would only realize they were still alive in his final moments. I'm already expecting a river of tears. For me Theon's arc is the best on the show so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy shit people, Dagmer is not Ramsay Bolton.

That is possibly the stupidest theory I have ever read in my 10 years of lurking and posting on these boards.

Holy shit. No.

I wish the people complaining about the changes would just realize that it is going to happen and watch the show for what it is.

I wish the people complaining about the people complaining about the changes would just realize that they don't need to constantly try to take the people complaining to task as if they're the freaking Game of Thrones hall monitors.

A message board is for discussions. Discussions can include complaints. Get over it.

Edited by awesome possum
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, people really need to get over the fact that some things are different in the show than in the books. Martin can be as deliberate and slow in the books as he wants to be. He can have 4 chapters that reside completely within a characters head, he can have things drag on as long as he wants, etc. They can't do that on screen. It just wouldn't make for good television. Purist would say "Yep, that was spot on!" while everyone else would say "Did anything actually happen in this episode? I fell asleep 3 times!".

As far as the episode goes...

Winterfell: The walnuts are there as a plot devise for the audience only. Dagmar's idea was to pull a bait and switch, which is actually what happens. The walnuts are there simply to fool the audience into thinking the boys are the one's killed. Bran, Rickon, Osha and Hodor will likely never return to Winterfell. You won't see the scene with master Luwen either. It's just not important to the TV show that he knows the boys lived, since he's about to die anyway. All that's left is likely Yara showing up to tell Theon he's screwed and then Ramsey sacking Winterfell (making it seem as though Theon is killed, I'm sure).

Beyond the wall: Again, Jon doesn't do much in this book, so somethings had to be created. I do hate that The battle with the others seems to have been cut out, but I guess they figure Jon's story is more important. What will likely happen now, John will likely find that Qhorin had been capture as well and he'll likely tell Jon to kill him and join the wildlings to spy on Mance. So, the end result would be the same, but you got to see john do more than walk through the snow for 10 episodes.

In the Riverlands: Ok, Jaime, at this point, is a bastard. Everyone knows this. They aren't going to show him being all noble and such right now, because once he does start to change some, they want it to be more pronounced. Him killing his cousin there and antagonizing Catelyn is the writers way of showing you that he's still an arrogant douche (personally, I still hated him even in ADWD).

Kings Landing: See, this is why sticking to the book can be a very poor choice for the series.... the moon blood scene was horrible. It was pulled from the book, yes, but come on... Sansa is taller than Cersei now and looks to be 17 or 18 at this point. Also, I didn't like the scene with Tyrion and Cersei either because I HATE Cersei and the books never painted her into a good light (as they tried to do with Jaime). She was always conniving, always backstabbing, etc. Which honestly, may have been what they were trying to do there. Pull Tyrion into a false sense of family so Cersei could stab him in the back in the coming episodes.

Harrenhall: I think Arya will ask Jaqen to kill Tywen, but he'll be leaving at the time. When she realizes she's too late, she'll ask him to help her free some captured Northmen that were just brought in. Then we'll likely get to see the weasel soup scenes.

EDIT: Fixed Grammatical errors.... it's too early, haha.

Edited by Versiroth
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy shit people, Dagmer is not Ramsay Bolton.

That is possibly the stupidest theory I have ever read in my 10 years of lurking and posting on these boards.

Holy shit. No.

Why can't 'Dagmer' be Ramsay? There has been no confirmation that he is actually ironborn - he never interacts with any of Theon's other men, he's adopted the role of the devil on Theon's shoulder, and it's very plausible that Roose (who knew Theon was being sent back to Pyke and wanted to know what went down) sent someone to follow Theon closely.

Obviously the Dagmer described in the books could never be Ramsay but Dagmer in the show could easily be Ramsay. It's not stupid, hon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was a very good episode. I was shocked about the whole Pyat Pree and Xaro alliance. I thought it was pretty cool how they took down the Thirteen. Was Pyat this much of a freaky and badass character in the book? I don't think so. It looks like Dany will be visiting the House of the Undying next episode. I really want to see how that is going to be done.

"Is that a woman?" "Where did you find that beast?" Lol, Jaime. Shut. Up. You know you totally want to go out with her. :lol: ;)

The Jaime cell scene was shocking and I was not expecting him to do something like that. He acted the hell out of it, though. I liked the mention of Barristen Selmy again. Hmm..., maybe he will make a reappearance at the end of the season? That would be cool.

I'm sorry the scene with Arya and Tywin was sort of funny in the beginning when he had his back turn and she kept staring at his neck while she was holding the knife. The music that played and kept cutting out when he turned to look at her and resumed again when he had his back to her had me dying, like she was Norman Bates or something. Other than that (I think unintentionally) funny moment, the rest of the scene was beautiful. The two actors have such great chemistry and I'm glad Arya didn't flip shit when he said she reminded him of Cersei. I really like the little history talk as well and the mention of Aegon and his sisters.

Damn you, Theon. You make me angry for being such a scummy fool right now and you make me doubly angry because I can't help loving you all the same. Alfie is so expressive with his face. He doesn't have to say it for you to see that he realizes he is doing some seriously fucked up shit and he's not all that proud of it, either. Maester Luwin made me sad :crying: He's so sweet and kudos to the actor. I really felt his sadness when he believed that was really Bran and Rickon up there.

The Hound and Sansa scene was good but too short!!! I wants more. Anyway, I loved his last line to her about being grateful for some of the hateful things he's done when he's all that stands between her and psycho Joff. Loved it. Was that in the book? I can't remember.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, people really need to get over the fact that some things are different in the show than in the books.

I do hate that The battle with the others seems to have been cut out, but I guess they figure Jon's story is more important.

Also, I didn't like the scene with Tyrion and Cersei wither because I HATE Cersei and the book never painted her into a good light (as they tried to do with Jaime).

You win!

Edited by Thunderfist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why can't 'Dagmer' be Ramsay? There has been no confirmation that he is actually ironborn - he never interacts with any of Theon's other men, he's adopted the role of the devil on Theon's shoulder, and it's very plausible that Roose (who knew Theon was being sent back to Pyke and wanted to know what went down) sent someone to follow Theon closely.

Obviously the Dagmer described in the books could never be Ramsay but Dagmer in the show could easily be Ramsay. It's not stupid, hon.

Why would Roose's bastard son be played by a guy older than Roose himself? <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy shit people, Dagmer is not Ramsay Bolton. That is possibly the stupidest theory I have ever read in my 10 years of lurking and posting on these boards. Holy shit. No. I wish the people complaining about the people complaining about the changes would just realize that they don't need to constantly try to take the people complaining to task as if they're the freaking Game of Thrones hall monitors. A message board is for discussions. Discussions can include complaints. Get over it.

So, if a message board can include complains, I can voice how stupid I think it is that people bitch about minor plot points in an adaptation. Get over it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...